What antique firearms do not need a license?

happyjack

Hi Shooters,

Anyone out there know what type of antique firearms do not need a firearms license?

Do you need a license for any gun older than 1890?

Would you need to license a Colt peacemaker, in 45 long colt, made about 1880ish?

How about a Colt dragoon, Navy or Army in black powder made around 1860?

Or a pinfire cartridge revolver made about 1885?

I'd love to start collecting very old Colt revolvers, they are expensive, but at the same time a great investment.

Are there any serious collectors out there who know the in's and out's of Irish antique firearms law?

Thank you in advance,

Happyjack:)

Bananaman

I've seen horrendous video of a guy in England back in '97 having his collection of Antique Colt Revolvers cut up following the fall of the hammer.

Be sure before you bring a piece of history into a situation where that may occur.

B'Man

It wasn't me!

Bananaman wrote: »

I've seen horrendous video of a guy in England back in '97 having his collection of Antique Colt Revolvers cut up following the fall of the hammer.

Be sure before you bring a piece of history into a situation where that may occur.

B'Man

Jesus, I don't think I could watch that...

happyjack

Bananaman wrote: »

I've seen horrendous video of a guy in England back in '97 having his collection of Antique Colt Revolvers cut up following the fall of the hammer.

Be sure before you bring a piece of history into a situation where that may occur.

B'Man

Now thats gun crime, chopping up a bit of history.

HJ:)

firefly08

Antiques are not subject to licensing. However, I think that to qualify as an antique it has to pre-date self-contained cartridges.(called "unitary cartridges" I think?) So unfortunately your Colt revolver would probably be classed as legally modern.

I found this written down somewhere because I'm also interested in antique firearms, but now I can't find the link. I think I started here:
http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Firearms_and_Ammunition_FAQ
(see question 9)

On the bright side, I think having a historical interest in antiques might count as a valid reason for getting a license, but I don't know if that would extend to handguns. Long guns shouldn't be too much of a problem.

I agree they're potentially a great investment. One of the cool things is that in the here in the US anything made prior to 1899 is legally an antique, and hence not subject to federal firearms law - that should mean easy, hassle free import/export to and from the US, which should make it easy to collect and sell these guns once you have all the appropriate paperwork at home.

I haven't tried to export back home one but I plan to do that when I return home from the US.

Sparks

Just moving to the main shooting forum 'cos more than just target shooters are interested in this I think...

firefly08

Found that link for ya:

http://sparks.journals.ie/2009/09/04/commissioners-guidelines/

See "Collectors/Deactivated firearms" section.

Notice how the part about the '‘Pre Unitary Cartridge" is not actually a legal definition, but is a rule applied by the Guards on the grounds that it "appears to conform to international standards"

ivanthehunter

http://www.herts.police.uk/firearms_licensing/antiques.htm

here is some common sense!

chem

firefly08 wrote: »

See "Collectors/Deactivated firearms" section.

Notice how the part about the '‘Pre Unitary Cartridge" is not actually a legal definition, but is a rule applied by the Guards on the grounds that it "appears to conform to international standards"

So would it have any legal weight in a court of law??

firefly08

here is some common sense!

Actually, I have to disagree:

If a firearm falls within the accepted definition of antique, then it is no longer subject to the provisions of the Firearms Acts, providing it is kept as a curio or ornament.

I don't see any reason why you should need the license if you fire it, but not if you mount it over the mantelpiece. By that logic, you should I be able to buy a modern rifle as an ornament too, and not need a license.

Either antiques are different, by virtue of the fact that they're antiques, regardless of what you do with them, or they're not!

firefly08

So would it have any legal weight in a court of law??

More weight, I would guess, than my opinion, or yours! I suppose you could challenge it - but the best you could hope for would probably be that you'd have an unlicensed antique for a few months while they fix the law. You still couldn't buy ammunition without an appropriate license though.

chem

firefly08 wrote: »

More weight, I would guess, than my opinion, or yours! I suppose you could challenge it - but the best you could hope for would probably be that you'd have an unlicensed antique for a few months while they fix the law. You still couldn't buy ammunition without an appropriate license though.

Most of the antique stuff would be very dangerous to fire so would never want to try it. But If we could collect providing it is kept as a curio or ornament. I would be happy:)

Its all history and has a story to tell:D

kowloon

It used to be a case that if you could persuade the local Super the firearms couldn't be used, you could get an authorisation for a 'defective firearm'.

Some stations required it to be non-metallic cartridge, a muzzle loader and smoothbore, which ruled out a ridiculous amount of stuff, some of it several centuries old. I've seen a rifled barrel dating from the 1650s, and there are older ones.

Now with the new guidlines the gardai have settled on 'Pre-unitary cartridge' as the guideline. This means in theory an American Civil War era Muzzle loading rifle is now legal to own but a Prussian Needle rifle made several years earlier is not. A cartridge revolver would be illegal but a muzzle loading duelling pistol would not. The pinfire would count as cartridge despite its obvious obsolecence.

Of course, as per the usual, local Supers will ignore any guidelines and wing it. I was told not long ago an Enfield 1853 Pattern muzzle loader would need to be properly 'demilled' before I would be allowed buy it. Needless to say I didn't buy it.

Sorry if this repeats everything previously in the thread.

sfakiaman

firefly08 wrote: »

Actually, I have to disagree:



I don't see any reason why you should need the license if you fire it, but not if you mount it over the mantelpiece. By that logic, you should I be able to buy a modern rifle as an ornament too, and not need a license.

Either antiques are different, by virtue of the fact that they're antiques, regardless of what you do with them, or they're not!

The difference is, that to fire antiques you would require a licence to purchase and possess ammunition or propellant (pyrodex or BP). While the manufacture of black powder is very simple it is unlikely that someone will steal your flintlock horse pistols for a bank heist, however if (in this country) you hung a AK47 over your mantlepiece you could bet your sweet ass that someone will steal it to use in further crime.

firefly08

Now with the new guidlines the gardai have settled on 'Pre-unitary cartridge' as the guideline. This means in theory an American Civil War era Muzzle loading rifle is now legal to own but a Prussian Needle rifle made several years earlier is not. A cartridge revolver would be illegal but a muzzle loading duelling pistol would not.

I wonder what exactly they mean by the term "Pre-unitary cartridge" as opposed to simply "non-unitary cartridge". Because strictly speaking, "pre" would rule out anything made since the introduction of the first unitary cartidge (1808 if Wikipedia is to be believed ).

Obviously they don't intend it to be interpreted as simply "non-unitary" since that wouldn't necessarily mean it's old. But "pre" would rule out a lot of genuine non-cartridge antiques, just because they were made after cartridges were introduced.

kowloon

COLLECTORS/DEACTIVATED FIREARMS
Antique firearms are exempt from the provisions of the Firearms Acts provided they are held as ornaments or curiosities. In the absence of a definition for an ‘antique’ firearm, Ballistics section at Garda H.Q. applies the ‘Pre Unitary Cartridge’ rule which appears to conform to international standards. Unitary cartridge ammunition consists of a cartridge - usually metal which contains the primer – the propellant and the bullet within it.
Modern reproductions of antique firearms are not exempt from firearms legislation.
Some people will occasionally wish to buy an old or antique firearm, or one which is valuable because of its historical significance, for no reason other than as an investment. This may sometimes be regarded as ‘Good Reason’ having regard to all the circumstances, and if capable of being fired, these firearms will require a firearms certificate.

Deactivated/Defective firearms, not capable of being fired, may be kept on the written authorisation of the local superintendent under S.6 of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990 as amended. The superintendent must be satisfied that the firearm is actually permanently deactivated and may request certification of same from a recognised proof house and have the firearm examined by a suitably qualified member of the Garda Síochána. Ballistics section Garda H.Q. may also be contacted to offer any further assistance if required. The serial number on such a deactivated firearm should always be maintained for identification purposes.

I'm not great at reading into these things, but do the highlighted sections appear to expose a contradiction in saying antiques are exempt but then also saying they'll require a licence?

I would imagine the licence fee will put a big dent into any 'investment'.

rrpc

kowloon wrote: »

I'm not great at reading into these things, but do the highlighted sections appear to expose a contradiction in saying antiques are exempt but then also saying they'll require a licence?

I think it means that antiques that don't pass the unitary cartridge rule will have to be licensed; not really a contradiction.

Interesting that they can't be fired if exempt from licensing.

Croppy Boy

In the previous Act, pre 1845 was deemed antique. This was a bit loose as most guns of that period did not have serial numbers and would be impossible to tell if they were 1844 or 1846. The present definition of being a muzzleloader makes much more sense.
To own an antique for display purposes only, you simply need an authorization from the Superintendent, however, if you wished to shoot the gun, it would have to be licenced an normal.

Grizzly 45

Kind of difficult to shoot a muzzle loader here in the ROI,as BP,is not available??
Also why does a modern reproduction need to be liscensed??It is the same technology as somthing made 100 plus years ago.Just with new materials???

Croppy Boy

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Also why does a modern reproduction need to be liscensed??It is the same technology as somthing made 100 plus years ago.Just with new materials???

I suppose the answer is because it's not an antique.