In democracies, do people get the leaders they deserve?

Joe1919

In democracies, do people get the leaders they deserve?

I'm just thinking about our present demise and about how people love ridiculing politicians and leaders. But, is this not a form of escapism. Is there a danger that we are really only making scapegoats out of them and in ridiculing them, we are really ridiculing ourselves?
I have no problem with people objectively criticizing political policies and actions. What I'm talking about is personal character criticism, in making 'devils' out of politicians.
I would be interested in some deep and serious political views.

PS The name of this forum is 'Political Theory'.

Permabear

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Joe1919

donegalfella wrote: »

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But would an US style direct election be any better? How would it work? Would there be a danger that we elect film or pop star type candidates? Could we trust ourselves? I'm just wondering or what would you suggest?

There is also strong economic empirical evidence that strong governments are better in a recession. It doesent matter if there left or right.
I'm been trying to follow some of the arguments lately. For example David Begg of ICTU praises the 'Swedish approach, as documented by one of its advisors, Jens Henriksson.' But interestingly, when you actually study this approach, strong government and sticking to tough policies is more or less recommended.

http://www.ictu.ie/press/2009/02/27/has-anyone-else-got-a-better-idea-read-david-begg-on-the-current-crisis/

http://www.bruegel.org/uploads/tx_btbbreugel/el_010607_budget.pdf

I was also looking at Ben Dunne on the telly last night. Do we need to get our act together ?

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Joe1919

But is there a dilemma here. Like the old saying, 'too many cooks spoil the brought.' If power is too divided, we can get indecisiveness. And how effective do you think the Irish constitutional system is in putting a check on power.

I mean, at least as a country we never had a leader lead us into a war (although I accept it nearly happened.) At the moment a crisis is a tenner knocked of the dole (p.s. I will be affected).

View

Joe1919 wrote: »

In democracies, do people get the leaders they deserve?

Yes.

Joe1919 wrote: »

Is there a danger that we are really only making scapegoats out of them and in ridiculing them, we are really ridiculing ourselves?

Yes.

In a democracy the electorate have the right to choose who will represent them in Parliament. If they choose unwisely, the electorate suffer the consequences sooner or later.

Personally, I am not convinced that our politicians are the "fools" of popular imagination. Most of them are very good at doing the first task of a politician, namely getting re-elected. Likewise, I'd suspect that 80%+ of the business of Government happens behind closed doors, the remaining 20% - much of it theatrics - tends to be the bit the electorate focuses on.

Most depressingly, I'd say is there is a serious lack of questioning of how the system of Government operates by the general public. It really is hard to believe there is no room for improvement and/or debate about our structures of Governance, yet the issue is essentially ignored.

Joe1919

View wrote: »

Most depressingly, I'd say is there is a serious lack of questioning of how the system of Government operates by the general public. It really is hard to believe there is no room for improvement and/or debate about our structures of Governance, yet the issue is essentially ignored.

I agree with much of what you say. There is of course always room for improvements but it also goes without saying that there is always room for dis-improvments in that badly designed changes can go wrong. To some extent, the way the country was constituted etc. was an attempt to safeguard against this. Would it be a good idea to introduce radical changes (such as severely altering or dumping our constitution, dumping the senate, president etc.) because we are having a recession? I would be inclined to say no for now and be more in favour of tweaks or gradual improvements and adjustments.
I suppose I can't really give you any 100% proof solid reasons for this answer but (historically) we know that many nasty things have occurred by introducing drastic constitutional changes during economic crises.
Perhaps the best way forward would be to fix the economy first.

'let us cultivate our garden' (Voltaire)

Gary L

Joe1919 wrote: »

In democracies, do people get the leaders they deserve?

My instinct is to answer yes to that question, for the obvious reason that the mass of plebs that hold the voting power in all countries decide on electoral candidates, economic views or anything relating to the countries governance so casually.

But with that in mind, You would think that Fringe parties that boast significantly varied policies to the ruling party would get a fair share of the electoral pie. After all, its easy to break down a major ideological difference to simple terms quickly understandable by someone who's not all that interested in politics. Surely in this climate change conscious time the green party should get more attention, or in the middle of a major global recession socialist economics should at least be considered. I'm sure you have your reasons why these parties shouldn't be voted for but please hold them back thats not the point I'm trying to make.

My point is that in reality,many voters make up their minds based on what the mainstream media tells them ie. these are the main parties in Ireland, this is what they stand for, who will you choose?!, and if they were offered up alternative parties on such a platter they may well choose them just as casually as when they voted fianna fail because thats what their father did.

Unfortunately, due to a paradox in journalistic ethics parties are allocated coverage time based on their electoral support which leads to them having electoral support. The result of all this is that the largely apathetic mass of the population have a very homogenized pool of options, parties all working within the same box. Those that look deeper and take a real interest will never hold 51% of the vote if you ask me.

So in answer to your question, I'd say people do generally get worse than they deserve due to the media's failure to explore in any respectable detail any idea toward government that drifts too far from the status quo. Say what you like about the ideas themselves but allow them to see the light of day and let democracy run its course, feeble mechanism that it is.

Joe1919

Gary L wrote: »

.....But with that in mind, You would think that Fringe parties that boast significantly varied policies to the ruling party would get a fair share of the electoral pie. .......

To be fair on this point, Ireland is not the worst. For example under our PR system, a candidate can in theory become a TD with less than 16% (5 seater) or 20% (4 seater) of the vote. In practise this figure can be smaller.
For example, one green party TD (Mary White) got elected in 2007 with 8% of first preferences and 15.5% if you include transfers and is a spokesperson etc.
http://www.electionsireland.org/counts.cfm?election=2007&cons=32

heyjude

George Carlin, the American comedian (talking about politicians and political leaders in the US) probably summed it up best in this clip

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=27029997

View

Joe1919 wrote: »

Would it be a good idea to introduce radical changes (such as severely altering or dumping our constitution, dumping the senate, president etc.) because we are having a recession? I would be inclined to say no for now and be more in favour of tweaks or gradual improvements and adjustments.

I see what you are saying and I'd agree that ideally you don't (radically) reform the constitution in a financial crisis. Likewise, I'd say you shouldn't reform the tax system in a financial crisis for much the same reasons as you outline.

The problem is, though, if you tried to reform (in any meaningful way) either the constitution or the tax system over the last few years, a lot of people would have had the attitude that "As we are the celtic tiger, our system must be great" and just wouldn't have seen the need for reform.

Logic might suggest reform during periods of stablility, emotions would probably agree to reform during periods of crisis.

Joe1919

View wrote: »

....Logic might suggest reform during periods of stablility, emotions would probably agree to reform during periods of crisis.

I can see your point. The energy needed to reform perhaps needs a crisis to motivate people into action. I suppose the main thing is that if change is to take place, it is carefully thought out and does no harm.
On the other hand, Ireland is changing and hopefully, this is in the right direction. We are really going through several different crises at the moment. There is the church-state, banking, political, economic, social etc. and I suppose these do give us an opportunity for change, hopefully for the better.