competitive airsoft. Oxymoron?

Vents

Can airsoft be competitive?

We all know that a weekends skirmish is competitive. The same way racing a fellow jogger to the park bench is competitive. At the end of the day everyone is playing for the same reason, Fun.

Milsim takes the role play element of airsoft to the next level with longer game play, advanced tactics and added realism.

It would seem to me that competitive airsoft in the way that football, golf or any other main stream sport is competitive has a fundamental problem. Airsoft completely relies on Honesty.

Airsoft is all about honesty. Something I take great pride in telling the uninitiated right off the bat. "well, you take your hits and play the game." I belive it's what keeps the true core of airsoft alive and is one of our biggest selling points.

As the teams in Ireland get Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger (Daft Punk Dec 20,2002) They will inevitably want to test themselves against other teams. the take aim cup is testimony to this. without wishing to drag up any bad blood from the cup, there were some problems and to be honest was the catalyst for this thread (PLEASE DO NOT USE THIS THREAD TO AIR ANY DIRTY LAUNDRY REGARDING THE CUP!)


So, down to the discussion. Can airsoft be truly competitive.

(keep it productive people!)

gungun

i cant really see it happening
not for a long time anyway, you would need serious surveillance stuff all over the site to stop the henry type things
arguments would erupt, just not yet methinks

Stonewolf

I think airsoft can be competitive if you want it to. There are cheaters in every sport, airsoft in Ireland just needs to figure out how to deal with it.

There are two basic ways of comparing teams to each other in a competitive manner.

The first (and probably easiest venue for cheating) is to play them off against each other. This isn't as easy as it sounds since airsoft is a widely varied field and teams tend to be good at certain things (playing a team that specializes in room clearing and close engagement against an open field team on an open field wouldn't be fair). Given increased marshaling for ranked games this is entirely possible but teams shouldn't be judged based on a single performance.

The second is to construct a number of tests and scenarios for teams to complete each based on a particular skill set whether against a human marshal team or target shooting depending on the scenario. Teams should be ranked according to overall performance and again not judged on a single performance.

se conman

In general things are not too bad .I would push the HONOUR CARD rather than the HONESTY CARD.In my opinion , no matter what the sport is , things never improve unless a group of people constantly remind others of the benifits of fair play in a positive way as the OP did.The sport of airsoft is more than a 30 minute game and we have to protect our sport for the future from within as well as without.

Puding

It all comes down to attitude and how you see airsoft, to me airsoft is about more than wining and losing if i wanted that i would play paintball, i see a lot of talk and it seems to be airsoft in Ireland has started to head literally toward paintball with rifs.

Competition in airsoft is great but it depends what form of competition this takes, A take aim style tournament is fine but it is not the be all and end all of airsoft. To me you have to play to the strengths of airsoft. Skill based competitions highlighting the differences between paintball and airsoft for example be it swat style tournaments.

There was an interesting talk on an airsoft podcast about types of player in airsoft, the talk was about gamers and players, gamers being out for the kill, players being out for the adjective ( speedball v milsim ) as it where, this is a little bit of an over simplification but you get the idea.

I think the gamer side of airsoft has taken of strongly in ireland and at the moment the player side is suffering a little, this i feel is because it is easier to run gamer style games at sites than milsim style games, and when i mean milsim i do not mean a variation on the theme of capture the flag, capture the bomb, capture the vip, as normally happened and gets called milsim, milsim is not about the rule set its about the mind set of the players involved.

Competitive game play will always be hear, and both gamer and players style has its place, we just need to be realistic about your expectations of competitive play.

Stercus Accidit

Do they play competitive airsoft elsewhere?

We've had the sport since 2006, if nowhere else is making it work in the longer time they have had, what chance have we of reinventing the wheel?

I think it is an oxymoron, I've seen enough casual cheating in regular games, let alone ones where fragile egos and the presure to win are at stake.

Puding

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Do they play competitive airsoft elsewhere?

We've had the sport since 2006, if nowhere else is making it work in the longer time they have had, what chance have we of reinventing the wheel?

I think it is an oxymoron, I've seen enough casual cheating in regular games, let alone ones where fragile egos and the presure to win are at stake.

depends on the area, in asia you manly get speedball style competitions like the take aim format, where as in the us its manly swat style competitions mirroring the real steel with heavy leanings towards practical rifle shooting style. swat events have a strong angle towards relism with points for muzzle control, taking prisoners, recovering intel, making safe weapons you come across, very scenario driven normal you have a number of ways to complete scenarios, e.g you can talk to the hostage taker or try and shot the hostage taker, stuff like that

europe is a mixed bag, a few country are heavy into weekend mil sim competitions very hard core, there was a nice article in a magazine will see if i can dig it up

it all comes down to the mind set of the country and players, are you in it to do it to win and the story is second, or are you there for the experience

TheDoc

Well here I go

Nah I'm not writing anything big, I made my feelings clear in the Take Aim article I did, which I think accomplished what I set out to do, it got people thinking and it got people talking.

Airsoft comes in many forms. For me the closest thing to competitiveness is milsim. When you play a skirmish, some people are just out for the buzz and the laugh and just want to train up or skill up. But any milsim I've been too, has the collection of the strongest players, and they want to win. They complete their tasks and objectives working in tandum wit their team in an effort for victory. This is a bi product of the milsim ideal, and 99% of the time, these milsims games go off without a hitch.

The Take aim cup has a great idea and foundation. Putting teams against teams. However I dont think the teams are being tested, as teams. The best way to test a team is through milsim. We currently do not have a format that says " This is the best team in the country". I dont personall believe that The Vipers were the best team in the country, nor do I believe Kosa are now.

However, they were the best at the task put infront of them. Two take aim cups have put an emphasis very much on speed, but havnt put any pressure on a team.

Nowhere in the cup did I see any team captain, show why he is captain of that team. Sure there is a plan before the game, but thats the easiest way to make a plan. There was no on the fly adjustment or direction of troops, and that was also stemming from the game type that simply did not put pressure on team captains.

Teams are more then 10 guys running fast and shooting lots of bullets. The ammo limits again were very generous, negating any need for firing manouvres and covering fire. No team was really tested as a team.

Its unfeasible to really test a team with the timeframe at hand. Ideally you want a team to be tested on both the offensive and defensive capabilities, their adaptability to a particular enviroment and situation, you want team captains to be tested in how they deal with troops, and how they micromanage situations that change drasticly.

I know it sounds rich, but I do think its kinda impossible to determine the best team unless its in a ladder/league format over a long period of time, that has games that run for over an hour, with limited ammo and numerous objectives.

As a guy who does onfield command for a top team, I know its very much easy, if my objective is simple one dimensional. For example " capture that base" I'd have every comfort knowing my team would complete the task fluidly, correctly and with minimal casualties, whilst not firing an abundance of ammo. But in a take aim cup format we just wouldn't ever get close. Because we dont sprint things, we analyse the situation, recon, then on the fly the plan is made by the co, orders given then implemented, and adjustments made if required. That doesn't bode well for when games were over in 2-3 minutes at the cup. However I would feel my team is one f the strongest if not THE strongest milsim team around. From twenty milsim I have counted in my head over the last 6-10 months we have lost 1. Anyone who was at the HRTA Swat milsim can attest to our milsim capability in how we let noone through our defensive line, yet were the quickest assaulters on the day.

But thats great me saying that, we wouldnt do well in a Take aim cup, and I think one of the reasons why there isnt great motivation for us to attend. Sure we go help, give our regards, but as it is we get alot of serious stick from someone people out of either jealousy or spite, and walking into an event you know your going to do **** at, well, your just not going to enter.

I think competitive airsoft can be achieved and will be achieved. But not over a weekend. And not through a watered down skirmish. Teams need to go under the microscope from every angle and direction, like medival castle would be proned for weaknesses, teams need to be pushed till a weakness is found and exploited, and they can then go work on those weaknesses.

For Airsoft to progress to the next level, that next level is properly organised competitve events like ladders/leagues. Run over a lengthy period based around milsim.

Me Dave and Brian from the warehouse, I felt, had created the foundation for THE perfect team test, that would leave no doubt as to who was the best team in the country. Me and Dave have subsequently pulled out of that idea but Brian is carrying forward, and I hope he understood me and Daves understanding of how to find the best team and doe sit himself, and I think he will, and I think you will have a great league to play in.

At the end of the day there is only so much more of this sport I can take in its current state. I am now relegated to milsims abroad and the once a months in MAC, because I simply cant trust airsofters in skirmishes. I was a big advocate for benefit of the doubt, but in my view people need to earn my trust back.

I know alot of people dont like me or are not fond of me, but I think its sad that someone like me, who is not central to the community, but a very active part in it, is being pushed to the sidelines due to the severe lack of enjoyment, and I'm slowly watching the game I love eat itself apart from the inside.

You can go back and search posts I made over a year ago on this very forum, when I made comments in relation to the DoJ monitoring these forums and I made the point then and I'll make it again.

" The government or law enforcement of this country wont ruin airsoft, nackers and messers abusing equipment wont ruin airsoft, airsofters will ruin airsoft from the inside."

And I'm sorry to say I've witnessed this happening over the course of the last 6 months. And its cemented by the fact the biggest and best players in this game in this country, are just not coming out because they just dont want to deal with the **** that goes on in skirmishes.

Take Sam there, a fantastic player, you just wont see him at a skirmish, hes been relegated to playing milsim because he knows its where the honest game happens, but theres very little milsim, so one of the brightest and best players in our game, sits at home on Sunday mornings.

Wheres Dr.Pepper gone? I'd consider in the top 3 players in the country. Sick and tired of the ****e that happens in skirmishes, he only plays milsim. Again relegated to the sidelines.

Masada? The best player by the mile, and someone I've huge admiration and respect for, and I've learned a hell of alot just by watching. Completely lost faith in airsoft and the only thing that slightly tempts him is MAC trips and trips abroad.

And I can go on and on with names and names. Guys who forged the game you all enjoy, they helped create the scenarios you all play. Guys who I miss playing with week in week out and its because our game has been filled with dishonesty, un loyalty.

Competitve airsoft is not to blame, site owners arnt to blame, marshalls arnt to blame. You are to blame. I'm not including myself, because I'm an honest player, and if someone accused me of cheating I'd quicker sell all my stuff and quit. Because I would be embarassed to show my face on a skirmish site if I was ever caught intentionally cheating.

So what really boils my blood is the people who are known cheaters, or know themselves they cheat, yet have the audacity to actually go every week and continue to play.

I thought the cheating aspect got calmed down in our game but it hasn't. Its the same if not worse. I just didnt realise it because I was playing milsim. But after returning to a skirmish a few weeks ago and the take aim cup, the situation looks dire, and we are the only ones that can stomp it out.

But alas I think we will find we will keep moving on ignoring the problem and letting everyone have their own way.

I think its rather **** that I live in Dublin, Swords, central to over 6 sites, yet I have to travel to longford, Sweden or the U.K to be guaranteed an enjoyable good game. ( And I must include HRTA on milsim days, because they are as enjoyable for me as anyone trip ive been on, just wish there was more)

If Ronan and Seans Jebrovia idea and game, can be sustained bi weekly or tri weekly, I'd happily say goodbye airsoft and play their game only alongside MAC. I remembered I nearly forgot them guys, dedicated to the milsim cause and went with an idea. That idea has turned into a game that has given me outragous enjoyment and everytime I go out I know three things

1) This game is going to be enjoyable
2) I'm not going to run into any cheating
3) I'm playing against the best.

And number 3 is a big thing for me, playing against the best, because I want to get better and better. And milsim is where I find the best.

Well done Sean and Ronan and I hope Jebrovia and Rules of Engagement can become a regular Sunday game.

And on a final note, I'd ask anyone to name me the best team in the country. And I'll gladly tell you why they are not (including ourselves). Competitive airsoft can work, its just not working yet. The formula still hasnt been found to find who is the best team, but I applaud I and alan for atleast trying to find the formula, and after the grief they got over the weekend, I'd tell you all to go **** yourselves, after trying to do a good thing to have it ridiculed like it was, is typical Irish and even more so typical airsofter.

TheDoc

Puding wrote: »

it all comes down to the mind set of the country and players, are you in it to do it to win and the story is second, or are you there for the experience

I'd say theres more then that.

I fall into the category.

" I'm here to win and enjoy myself and better myself as a player"

That to me is what a competitive player is, someone who just wants to be regarded as the best, keep on improving and improving. But you will never succeed at that if you cheat. I'm not being funny but you just have to look at Thierry Henry. Regarded one of the worlds top players, a moment of madness and he is down with the ****ters.

I very much take great interest in plot lines and stories of games, shown by my rigid attendance to Jebrovia and MAc milsims. But I don't believe that a milsimer or anyone playing airsoft, has a nosey at the story, gets into character and into the mindset, then sonters out and has a laugh.

The toughest hardest games I've ever been in were Milsim games. Guys murdering each other for that inch, going hell for leather, giving it guts and steel. All heightened by the fact you ARE GOING o run out of ammo quickly and that when your hit, your not respawning, your waiting there for a medic, and if **** doesn't turn around soon, your getting over run , and if you do, your captured and your out of the game.

How that wouldn't pour petrol over an internal fire to fight harder and stronger, to turn the enemy and to win, is beyond me.

Puding

i find it facilitating the obsession with finding out who the best is, airsoft at the moment seems to be more about ego than game

But I don't believe that a milsimer or anyone playing airsoft, has a nosey at the story, gets into character and into the mindset, then sonters out and has a laugh.

could not disagree more strongly with this, maybe the case in Ireland but else where is a completely different story, take for example themed events, themed events dictate style of play rules and character and temp of the game, its not about winning and losing primarily its about the whole, if the theme did not matter to this people turning up for such events you might as well just go down to your local pick up game

ww2 airsoft
vietnam airsoft
cold war airsoft

all examples where practicality and the competitive nature give way to the theme and experience

yes competition is good, but is the best determined by how many kills you get or how well you complete and odjective, i once had a debate with someone and i was told that it is not airsoft unless you shot someone where as i can play an airsoft game and not fire a shot, i believe that completeing an obkective without firing a shot is even more rewarding, but this could just be me

life is all about keeping score, i could be keeping up with the Jones next door or on the skirmish feild, most skirmishers i meat in ireland jsut want a real world version of deathmatch, they want to play mw for real, if they could have a score boards on the field and stats they would be in heaven, nothing wrong with this but it is not the only side to airsoft.

Take the next TA event, first thing that went thought my head was loadout theme storyline, meet different people, first thing 9/10 other people went for was zoom lets go over there and win, in a big irish group, you might as well just be playing in a field on any given Sunday in Ireland with that mind set,

but them again it could just be me

my 2 cents

TheDoc

Puding wrote: »

i find it facilitating the obsession with finding out who the best is, airsoft at the moment seems to be more about ego than gam

Its a point. Everyone wants to take something different from the game they play. Some take enjoyment, some take getting out of the house, some take making friends, some socialising, some getting good at something.

It was a point of example, displaying how the top blokes in the game are just, leaving really.

And I dont think there is anything wrong with someone wanting to try be the best, its not ego, its personal achievement and progression.

I for example, always try to get better. I identify the good players, watch them, learn from them, play against them and alongside them.

I at the start of my airsofting life might have been more strongly for " I want to be the best" but I very much sidelined that mode of thinking when I witnessed the game wasn't really like paintball ( where I came from). But I still lwant to keep improving. To me this is my new sport, its not a game like warcraft or call of duty, its something I go to play to get better and better at and to win, essentially the same way I approach every sport or game I play, I always want to get to a point where I can all myself good.

The only time I see ego's in the wrong light is when people lose games, and refuse to acknowledge the loss or even shake hands, I take pride in that I can shake hands with anyone that beats me and can accept defeat.

OzCam

There are other competitive sports where players take their hits even at the highest level. Snooker and golf come to mind, it happens in cricket occasionally. I'm sure there are others.

Ultimately it's down to the individual player and their sense of personal responsibility and ethics. Do you want to be like a snooker player and rather die than cheat, or do you want to be like a soccer player and cheat then blame the referee for not spotting it?

Puding

another interesting area connected to the rise in competitive airsoft is how teams seemed to develop over hear, in most other country i look at teams are normally driven a common theme, an area of real life they choose to replicate, there as in Ireland teams have seemed to have developed more along the lines of a football team with the camo being used as a team strip

just something i've notice

TheDoc

Puding wrote: »

i find it facilitating the obsession with finding out who the best is, airsoft at the moment seems to be more about ego than game



could not disagree more strongly with this, maybe the case in Ireland but else where is a completely different story, take for example themed events, themed events dictate style of play rules and character and temp of the game, its not about winning and losing primarily its about the whole, if the theme did not matter to this people turning up for such events you might as well just go down to your local pick up game

ww2 airsoft
vietnam airsoft
cold war airsoft

all examples where practicality and the competitive nature give way to the theme and experience

yes competition is good, but is the best determined by how many kills you get or how well you complete and odjective, i once had a debate with someone and i was told that it is not airsoft unless you shot someone where as i can play an airsoft game and not fire a shot, i believe that completeing an obkective without firing a shot is even more rewarding, but this could just be me

life is all about keeping score, i could be keeping up with the Jones next door or on the skirmish feild, most skirmishers i meat in ireland jsut want a real world version of deathmatch, they want to play mw for real, if they could have a score boards on the field and stats they would be in heaven, nothing wrong with this but it is not the only side to airsoft.

Take the next TA event, first thing that went thought my head was loadout theme storyline, meet different people, first thing 9/10 other people went for was zoom lets go over there and win, in a big irish group, you might as well just be playing in a field on any given Sunday in Ireland with that mind set,

but them again it could just be me

my 2 cents

You make a very valid and strongly correct point. There are just different mentalities throughout the game really.

I take my gaming very seriously. I don't mind losing, aslong as I put in a good shift and performance. In a way, its probably me substituting. I'm used to playing comeptitive sports at high levels, and well, all that stopped with airsoft. So for me I guess I'm trying to keep myself being competitive, I cant imagine me ever not being competitive at something. I dont think it makes me anti social or an arsehole because of it, but it makes people interpret me different.

Like I took great pride in the way I was part of PR2, where a small group played a huge role in the victory for our team. The same in how PR3 we were again at the forefront of the victory. However I came back from PR3 and was being very harsh on myself because I felt I'd let the group down as a whole through a lackluster performance in both play and leadership ( Dr.Pepper can confirm if he ever comes near boards again :P ). Berget was the same, although I felt our platoon and our section did well, I was still harsh on myself for what I felt again was poor leadership and mistakes I made.

But its how I become a better player. A month before the next TA event, everyone will prepare different. You might be finishing touches to your loadout, I'll be looking at section composition to ensure maximum efficeny and operational status. Thats how I get into the role. I dont have the money to spend on nice loadouts, and although it brings me great enjoyment, I get my kicks out of preparation in the tactical sense. I get butterflies before milsim games " what if my plan doesn't work, what if we go on the backfoot" etc, then I start making contingency plans.

I've no doubt your a good player, I've played with you only a few times but you were impressive. And I like to think of myself as a competant player. Yet we have two drastic approaches to the game as we both just admitted too, neither is more right then the other or less cool or less competitive. There is just different styles that we approach the game too, to get our kicks and enjoyment. I just feel sometimes my approach is often mis interpreted, as been mentioned by fellow players in a similar mold to me.

That we are aggresive, egotiscal , take the game too seriously. I was under the impression airsoft was a military simulation game, so part of that is chain of command and planning, instructions and tactical thinking. I never overstep my boundaries, but when you hear comments from people saying I'm a "weirdo" or a "******" just for trying to act like I know what I' doing, then it annoys me.

As I'm sure you get annoyed with the stereotype your type of mold gets. Chairsofter, doesn't take the game seriously and more interested in their unique camo then playing the game.

I spent what I considered alot of time money and effort to get myself a vietnam loadout. Since acquiring it there has been no vietnam games, nothing. My rifle sits 3/4 finished because the games arnt there. Kits, authenticity and the sort dont interest me half as much as playing the game. I had seen how vietnam games work through youtube, Lemming had told me about the VN games in scotland and I was hooked. So in essence yes I was roped into buying the kit, but for me it was a step I had to take to partake in a different type of game to push me further. However no games take place ehre, so my kit lies idle and will be sold soon enough.

Horses for courses as they say, I play the game, honourably and enjoy being competitive. Some people enjoy acquiring the kit and just plinking at home, some enjoy having boxmags and just spraying everywhere. All that is fine and cool, everyone to themselves, for a while I was just playing with a 3 burst shotgun and having the time of my life.

But I think everyone can be on the same page and can agree that the game here isnt what it should be. Not milsim ( although id love it). As you say the "gamer" or speedsoft has taken a foothold and its the norm. And I've no problem with that in all honesty, the problem I have is that it attracts people that simply dont take their hits and uphold the integrity of the game.

That may be our fault, as more experienced players we should be taking time to talk to new players, telling them about honesty and how it is the core to the game. Maybe its the site owners, they arnt displaying well enough how honesty works.

At the Take Aim cup I was marshalling a wild fast paced skirmish, unlimited ammo, with the most basic game scenario, each team has bomb, bring bomb to other base, and I threw in a mix through a players suggestion, a neutral spawn in the middle, that teams who hold it respawn at. I was one marshall covering 50 people.

And I guess my approach worked, I just said that I was the only marshall, I'm not paid to do this I'm here to run your game. Airsoft is about honour, you will have a much more enjoyable game if you all play in the spirit of the sport, because it is what you want from everyone else here.

And it turned out to be a fantastic game, there was some milsimers thrown in with some skirmishes and Dobby running around with the nam kit. It was a gret game.

TheDoc

Puding wrote: »

another interesting area connected to the rise in competitive airsoft is how teams seemed to develop over hear, in most other country i look at teams are normally driven a common theme, an area of real life they choose to replicate, there as in Ireland teams have seemed to have developed more along the lines of a football team with the camo being used as a team strip

just something i've notice

Thats very true. I know we took to wearing multicam, simply to be identified, so in essence yes a team strip. But the driving force on our team is that we all get along, we can safely say we are honourably players and we love playing with each other and we are all in love with milsim.

As someone who is actively invovled in our recruitment, there is things we look for. If we all for example used Scars, and it was a requirement, we would eliminate a big pool of players, and probably be picking from a different set.

I think its just simply practicality. Multicam is the colour, you pick what you are comfortable with. It would be unfeasible to insist on the same tac vest, rifle, sidearm etc for everyone, as you want to have people playing in comfort and with what they are comfortable to get their optimum efficeny.

Actually just reading that last line, you can see where I'm coming from. Rather then having a team that may resemble a particular unit from some army, I'd rather have a team thats efficent in their play style so we can be an effective force. The only restriction we have in unity, is midcaps

There was a part of our section in PR2 that looked tremendous. They all had this kinda PMC loadout, all fleece tops, baseball caps, systema m4's and all the same tac vest and the likes. There was me, ozcam, kd, gerrout and fay. We all had multicam, but all had different guns, headwear and tactical gear. I felt we were much better and more efficent and productive throughout the game. I know your not implying that you need to look the part, but many occasion you can see guys that you go " wow, they look amazing" and afterwards go " heh, epic posers".

I'd rather be in a group of blokes in boxers and boots but could play the game properly and efficently, then all looked like siblings and play like we had no fingers.

Puding

I spent what I considered alot of time money and effort to get myself a vietnam loadout. Since acquiring it there has been no vietnam games, nothing. My rifle sits 3/4 finished because the games arnt there. Kits, authenticity and the sort dont interest me half as much as playing the game. I had seen how vietnam games work through youtube, Lemming had told me about the VN games in scotland and I was hooked. So in essence yes I was roped into buying the kit, but for me it was a step I had to take to partake in a different type of game to push me further. However no games take place ehre, so my kit lies idle and will be sold soon enough.

i think this is an important point and very true, a lot of people are very interested in a themed or more milsim based gaming experience but this does not exist in ire land yet, this will come in time and airsoft in Ireland needs to mature for it to grow, my only worry is that it will not get a chance to grow as it is smothered by the more fased place pick up style game

i do not blame sites for this, it is easier and better business sense to run the fast paced games more like mw2 than arma2, i hope other side will get a chance to grow thought

TheDoc

The national get and skirmish day is a great idea to get people into airsoft and experience the game.

I'd wonder if site owners would be interested in " Get out and milsim day". To let skirmishers try milsim.

We try to push milsim little by little. Not going out demanding milsim, but we would ask a site owner on a skirmish day could he run one or two games that were limited ammo. Thats a small part of milsim, but its the one that scares most people. "One hicap!?!?!?" I hear them say. But the feedback after is always " That was amazing!!!". I've seen it happen at HRTA, Drogheda and Red Barn. Sties youd assosiate with " scoot and shoot" but adopted a portion of limited ammo and everyone enjoyed it. Paul picked up on this and started running mislim games on bank holidays. And they were a great success from a players point. The games were well run, exciting, in depth and tested every player in every angle of the game. However, from a business point of view, its a hit. I know Paul could have ran some skirmish games, and had double the numbers. The Milsim games, at first, had low numbers.

I'm not saying Paul is a Messiah and other site owners are greedy piggies. But you cater for your customers and their desires. At the time a big number wanted milsim after testing the limited ammo games, and Paul tried it, but on the grand scheme, the numbers were low. Jebrovia runs a fantastic milsim story in HRTA. and I mean fantastic. No one comes out of those games going " this is ****". For only 2 hours a night, you still have fantastic fun. But again the numbers didn't turn up. Although the games are always great even with the low numbers, you cant experience things like chain of command, operation centres and proper troop management, with small numbers.

Skirmishing caught on fast here, more then milsim. So milsim is the minority. I can shout till the cows come home about how milsim is airsoft, and speedsoft is a by product, but it wont make much sense. Now as I type people are probably going " Would he ever **** off and his milsim". And thats fine, its everyone choice and right as a player.

But I think the proven fact is that on skirmish days when a site owner runs limited ammo games, just one out of the whole day, its always the best game, most skillful and most enjoyable.

Site owners arn't going to randomly throw in a limited ammo game, for fear of pissing off the masses. But if your down at your local site, have a chat around, or ask the site owner, its as simple as at the start of the day " Does anyone mind running one limited ammo game?" And then see what happens.

Everyone enjoys a skirmish, I know I do the odd time. Just to shoot things, bit of practice, and the enjoyment of just brapping loads of people. But the problem lies in the thought that hits me every morning before I go skirmishing. " Am I paying €20 to be pissed off and come home raging?" And thats unfortunately the case in most instances.

Whats more worrying, is how most people dont see the problem with cheating, putting fire on you for 5 minutes straight etc. And aslong as it persists, when new people arriv,e they think its the norm and the problem increases.


I'd like to point out I'm not anti skirmish. I prefer milsim theres no doubt, but theres great skirmishing players out there and great teams and sites. I'm tarring everyone with the one brush.

I'm merely trying to hilight how most of the problems with the game are more evident on a skirmish day. And how we differ from other more experienced countries. There no problems with skirmishing itself in theory, the problem is with the players who disregard the gaming rules.

I just wanted to clear that up so people weren't assuming I'm calling people who skirmish or use hicaps ****ters.

Lemming

TheDoc wrote: »

The only time I see ego's in the wrong light is when people lose games, and refuse to acknowledge the loss or even shake hands, I take pride in that I can shake hands with anyone that beats me and can accept defeat.

I've encountered the negative side of ego on the flip-side as well, where people perceive themselves as winning and then brag about it into your face. Repeatedly. There's poking fun and then there is being vitriolic about it. There is such a thing as being a bad winner as well as a bad loser. TBH, when I encounter either it just turns me off and I want to just walk away and leave whoever it is to their own devices.

TheDoc wrote: »

" I'm here to win and enjoy myself and better myself as a player"

That to me is what a competitive player is, someone who just wants to be regarded as the best, keep on improving and improving.

Isn't that a contradiction in terms? "Win" and "enjoy"? What if you don't win? I ask because i have encountered the mindset (not purely in airsoft so this isn't unique) whereby if somebody has not achieved 'x' they had a "sh*t time" despite the fact they may have in fact had a great time otherwise.

I would also suggest that one does not better oneself simply by winning. What if you lose? In defeat there are usually far more valuable lessons to be learned, ergo bettering oneself than in victory, and you can also achieve all of your objectives and still lose a game. I'm not suggesting that we all go out and try and lose games but I am suggesting that perhaps viewing self-improvement through victory is a one-way and very narrow street.

But I don't believe that a milsimer or anyone playing airsoft, has a nosey at the story, gets into character and into the mindset, then sonters out and has a laugh.

Sign me up then. I do. I will try to achieve my objectives as much as the next guy, but it's not a competition to prove how great I am. I play airsoft to enjoy myself. If I didn't, I wouldn't be playing. I enjoy the challenge that milsim presents most of all; the challenge of trying to achieve objectives; the challenge of operating inside unit coherency and chain of command; the challenge of my environment (where applicable) and whatever else I am required to do in achieving objectives. I do it to push myself regardless of whether I win or lose the "game"; not to push the other guy because I have no idea what his motivation is. Maybe it's the same as mine in which case ... great; maybe not in which case each to their own.

I've ever been in were Milsim games. Guys murdering each other for that inch, going hell for leather, giving it guts and steel. All heightened by the fact you ARE GOING o run out of ammo quickly and that when your hit, your not respawning, your waiting there for a medic, and if **** doesn't turn around soon, your getting over run , and if you do, your captured and your out of the game.

Don't mistake the above with competition. Yes it's competitive; no some people may not necessarily be in it for competition, i.e. "I must win at all costs; there is no second place and second place is for l0000sers". As I said; I view it personally as self-challenge.

Puding wrote: »

could not disagree more strongly with this, maybe the case in Ireland but else where is a completely different story, take for example themed events, themed events dictate style of play rules and character and temp of the game, its not about winning and losing primarily its about the whole, if the theme did not matter to this people turning up for such events you might as well just go down to your local pick up game

ww2 airsoft
vietnam airsoft
cold war airsoft

all examples where practicality and the competitive nature give way to the theme and experience

My sentiments exactly. I've been to three VN games this year; not once have I encountered the "I must win" mindset. Everyone was there for the fun of it, and it showed around the camp site afterwards.

yes competition is good, but is the best determined by how many kills you get or how well you complete and odjective, i once had a debate with someone and i was told that it is not airsoft unless you shot someone where as i can play an airsoft game and not fire a shot, i believe that completeing an obkective without firing a shot is even more rewarding, but this could just be me

Again, I'd like to echo what Puding has said. I've had milsim events (of the hardcore variety in both 'black' and 'green' scenarios) where I haven't fired a single shot and/or hit anybody. But I had great fun and challenged myself in doing so. But because I didn't fire a shot, never mind "kill" another player, does that mean that I had a sh*t game or I didn't improve myself somehow? I guess some people think that. Mores the pity and more fool them.

Ultimately, what am I saying? Personally, I think that in Ireland at any rate - there is far too much emphasis on "competition" for the sake of an imaginary podium rather than enjoying the game. One can also be competitive in any given scenario/event/whatever and not be trying to "compete" if I can draw the distinction. One can improve themselves regardless of win or lose; the lessons ARE there if your mind is open enough to spot them.

There are so many different angles to airsoft that I despair of the perceived all-consuming race to the imaginary podium that would seem to have taken hold.

TheDoc

I think I might not be conveying the point correctly.

Of course you learn alot through losing, I just didn't post it. I would assume it goes without saying. You learn your mistakes and weaknesses and become better and improve them. I usually go through a routine of reviewing each milsim I play to see what I did back/good and work from there. Our team reviews games we play to see what went good and bad, and try improve in the future.

Why do you complete your objectives in milsim? Why dont you sonter off on your own and have a good time? Because you realise you will let your team down, and let your side down. So, because you want to be supporting your fellow team members,you complete your tasks, or attempt to, as best you can. This is a bi product. Because in turn your being competitive. You know if you cant hold this flank, the enemy will come past you like a herd of raging bulls and sweep in behind your comrades, eliminating them, so you fight harder to make sure they don't. You don't give up, you give everything to keep them at bay, surely this is an essence of competitiveness?

Competitiveness isn't winning. It isn't rushing a field in 4 minutes and saying your the best. Its about trying your best, because you dont want to let yourself or others down. Because you want to get better. Some people might not, some do. I wouldn't be happy with getting my ass handed to me one day, and not learn what went wrong, and continue to have it handed to me. Its called learning and self progression, which I would put down as the main principle of a competitive player in anything, learning, training, becoming better. Self challenge and pushing yourself, thats competitiveness, anyway you look at it.

Sometimes theres more to a medal, or a cup or a title. There can be things more inspiring.

For me I look back on where I was when I started. In jeans and a shirt wielding a G36c. Playing in skirmishes thinking this was the best thing ever. I look at myself now, in a short space of 12 months. I've got guns to beat the band, kit I absolutely adore. I'm part of a team and a group that I'm proud to call myself a Hawk, and even more proud and privalaged that in the field these guys look at me to lead. I've gone to the biggest game in the world, I've gone to the biggest games in the UK. Ive made amazing friends and met trulely wonderful people. And I've become a better player week in week out since I started, from winning or losing.

Thats my victory and my medals. That I'm at a different place now then I was a year ago, a different level. I'm not content with turning up every week and just playing, and I said that at the start. I was going to analyse my game week in week out and just become better and better. Sure you hit ruts where nothing happens. I used to play of a handicap of 4 in golf ,doing practical tests for Europes most prestigous golfing academy in Scotland, 3 months later I fell into a rut I never got out off and now I play of 12. It happens, but you have to persevere. And thats competitiveness, in my eyes. Its self progression. Do I now go out and play golf for the laugh and social aspect like many do, no one would fault me if I did. But thats not me, I go out and practice, I try to reclaim what I lost.

And the same in airsoft. If tomorrow I turned ****ing woeful, I couldnt lead a dog around the field, I couldnt shoot an elephant. I wouldnt be content with staying that way, I'd work harder and harder, and get back to the level I was.

And I know its not just me, my article touched nerves with alot of people and I got alot of people in contact with me about it, not to mention site owners asking how to slowly inject some milsim vibe, team captains asking how to improve their team overall and players asking how to become better and its all the same anwser.

You need to analyse your game, and work on your mistakes. I'd be shocked to think I'm some sort of new breed to airsoft. Surely many have come in from other competitive backgrounds. In golf I'd keep a detailed book on how many greens I hit in regulation, how many puts etc and I'd work on things to become stronger at.

In airsoft I do the same, I'm ****ing muck at assaulting, and I sometimes have issues with commanding people who I feel might resist me or I just get over whelemed by the fact I know they are better then me. I do something similr in airsoft, wht I did well, what didnt go well etc.

Competition is about winning medals and cups and trophies. Competitiveness is something else entirely, and I think a distinction has to be made. Take aim cup one we didnt get to the last group. I was annoyed at myself for what I thought was a poor performance. But the guys assured me I tried my best. So I was happy knowing that I did my best, I didnt let my team down, and that we were gracious in our loss, shook hands with the victors, and said we would try again. This year the team couldnt go so I played with the Tigers. Alot faster, more powerful then us in attack. They got through the first round, then lost in the second. Again I felt I did nothing much, but the guys assured me I did more then they expected, and again I was happy in knowing I didnt let them down , I tried my best, I learned aspects of play from them and I shook the victors hands and wished them well through the coming days play.

On Sunday I'm playing MAC with the Hawks, and we are going up against contractors. I know I'm going into a highly competitive game, with highly competitive players. Why?

Not because they are going to hurl abuse and pound their chests. But because I know if I'm going to break their lines they are going to put everything in front to stop us. To the last man we are going to have to barrage them with everything in our tank.

And they know the same, they are going to have to go hell for leather, be cunning and give 110% to over run us.

Before and after the game, I guarantee you there will be laughs banter and craic, and afterwards war stories will be told.

There is going to be a winner and a loser sure, but everyones is going to come out knowing they had a good game and a tough game. Thats competitiveness, we arnt getting medals ( although Jerrys brownies are ****ing win) we arnt getting cups or recognition from the world. But I know I'm going toe to toe with the best. And win lose or draw, I'm going to have a great day, great because it would be hard fought and any outcome deerved and earned, and I'll learn something.

You know I've played games ( mostly skirmishes) where by just experience alone the side I've been on have literally steamrolled the opposing team. And it wasnt fun, it didnt give me enjoyment. One day was me alongside The Ghosts playing a gathering or new players, and we were just pounding away, I wasnt having fun, I was winning, but it wasnt fun.

Towards the last 40 feet until victory, Richie,Conor,Dar,Neil and Liamo, just entered on the side of the defenders and pushed us all the way back, we got a pounding. That was fun, it was fun because I was meeting people to put me to the test, to give me a challenge, not granted they dominated me, that day spurred I wanted to join a team, their team.

If I wanted to win and its all I cared about I'd go down to rental days and look like Neo running around a field, but truth is the enjoyment comes out of earning something. Its why we split our team up if we are on a rental day, its why we play these milsims.

One of the biggest pitfalls is getting easy victories, and being lulled into a false sense of self excellence.


And on a final note, Lem I cant help but feel the first point you made may have been reflected on me after PR3. Might be me being "paranoid" but it may not. In any case, I was hardly ever serious. I had the same banter with Puding and Paul Horgan that night and I think they understood the nature of it. Everyone should be well aware of my humour and bantering ways. If you somehow took offence from it or the wrong way, I apologise as it wasnt my intent, nor is it ever.

With teams I do not know I'll always give a handshake in victory or defeat, like I did at the previous two take aim cups and mostly any game I play. But if its someone I know and I suss out they will be alright with a laugh or two, then I'd proceed to take the piss mildly., or in some cases extremely, but sometimes I need to be told where the boundary is, I'm not pyschic

Lemming

TheDoc wrote: »

And on a final note, Lem I cant help but feel the first point you made may have been reflected on me after PR3. Might be me being "paranoid" but it may not. In any case, I was hardly ever serious. I had the same banter with Puding and Paul Horgan that night and I think they understood the nature of it. Everyone should be well aware of my humour and bantering ways. If you somehow took offence from it or the wrong way, I apologise as it wasnt my intent, nor is it ever.

I think perhaps something got lost in translation between my brain and the keyboard, so my apologies for that. I was picking up on the remarks about ego and bad losing and was pointing out (or trying to at any rate) that it swings the other way and that one can win and be a bad winner as well. I wasn't having a swipe at anyone.

TheDoc

Lemming wrote: »

I think perhaps something got lost in translation between my brain and the keyboard, so my apologies for that. I was picking up on the remarks about ego and bad losing and was pointing out (or trying to at any rate) that it swings the other way and that one can win and be a bad winner as well. I wasn't having a swipe at anyone.

Its cool, cause I could totally understand if it was, because I'm not denying sometimes I rub it in, but its always in jest

Hivemind187

the **** is going on here? You people are being cordial!

*starts handing out pointy sticks so we can get back to basics*

Stone.cold

i don't play airsoft because i want to win, i don't play it so i can have a big cup on my shelf i play airsoft because it challenges me mentally and psychically, there is nothing more amazing for me than lying in a ditch as a patrol approaches with my heart pounding out of my chest.

Having said that if there was no such thing as milsim i think i would have given up a long time ago, in an ironic way i was lucky were my airsofting began for one reason only they would only play milsim.

i remember going to my first skirmish and having a stroke over the amount of bb's i used, on top of that i taught my gun was broken when i fired at a guy 20 feet from me and he walked away, i taught hmmmm OK maybe he didn't feel it and then i started to notice it more and more.

when we started MAC it was more for that reason than any i swore that cheating would not be tolerated in any way shape or form on our field, and as far as I'm aware it hasn't happened to date, mainly because not only do we as far as im concerned have some of the most honest airsofters (visiting us and members) i have ever met but we are very strict with our rules if someone is report to us for cheating we will say it directly to that person if it happens again they will not be invited back its that simple. I do like a good skirmish one of my major vices is the dark mist series in fingal which i do my best not to miss, and i have to say so far i have yet to see any cheating first hand at it.

competitiveness is fine if that's what u like puff out your chest stomp around saying we are the champions go for it, but that's not for me, we have played games in mac with some awesome teams Hawks ATF Contractors AON and many individual players and if you asked me at the end who won i couldnt tell ya, we play it for fun. The Federation story has rolled over every month since we opened there is not or will there be an outright winner cause tomorrow we could be victorious but next month we could get our asses handed to us, but the story line will evolve with that, if Benny Lava falls to an assassin then the assassin did his job and the story will move on without lava that's what i love the story never ends and we as players adapt with it

TheDoc

I'm really getting interested in this " continued story" gameplay. Like you said one weak you could stomp over the enemy and they react two ways.

1) They come out next time feeling timid and a bit fearful, to get stomped again
2) They come out with resolve and resolute to do better and counter strike.

Thats an aspect thats really interesting as well as the game by game change in tactics and scenario, and because personal is always mostly the same, you can gel better, and the skill level truly does go out of this world.

Why I have fingers crossed Rules of Engagement and Mac can can run story based rolling over sceanarios next year.

If there was one mac game and one jebrovian game a month, but continued over 6 months or more, I'd be in like Flynn, and be more then happy to play twice a month.

Stone.cold

thats the plan anyway that next yr the Federation wars will become a permanent fixture for us and the site and the players will evolve with the game story, Characters placed into the story line much like Lava and W.D that will help the story grow and regular players will assume these identities and hopefully attract more players that want to experience this form of airsoft

Stonewolf

I'd love to see more milsim and ongoing games in Ireland (they're far more interesting than skirmish) but they just don't seem to be attracting the numbers.

Stone.cold

Stonewolf wrote: »

I'd love to see more milsim and ongoing games in Ireland (they're far more interesting than skirmish) but they just don't seem to be attracting the numbers.

Its not everyones cup of tea i have played with guys who afterwards say how do u play that its so boring, its a personal thing, but i do think if more tried it then they would come around to them for me its not just a sunday game once a month the whole story has to be told, you have to keep telling it even if only one new person turns up next month then it was worth it, cause in twelve months time you will have maybe 12 more people who attend regularly, i would love to get the federation wars to a stage where we can put on a 3 day war between too sides non stop airsoft on a massive scale and maybe someday that will happen but for now one more new person is a building block to that.

Stonewolf

Aye, I come from a larp background and we never got that off the ground here. We had a weekly non-storied training session and it was all events in England if you wanted to actually play (mind you, Irish players are fairly highly regarded because training is the only way to get our fix so we do it lots).

I introduced one of my larper friends to Jebrovia and on his first game he mostly wandered around being confused and didn't fire a single shot, he thought it was the best airsoft game he ever played.

Stone.cold

Stonewolf wrote: »

Aye, I come from a larp background and we never got that off the ground here. We had a weekly non-storied training session and it was all events in England if you wanted to actually play (mind you, Irish players are fairly highly regarded because training is the only way to get our fix so we do it lots).

I introduced one of my larper friends to Jebrovia and on his first game he mostly wandered around being confused and didn't fire a single shot, he thought it was the best airsoft game he ever played.

I feel role playing is very important to this style of game we had a game where we threw in a couple of farmers to mix it up a bit, not only was it hilarious to see these guys get into character but it changed the whole game all of a sudden you had people in a game unarmed, causing chaos and the armed players had strict rules not to fire on them it was brilliant to watch.

OzCam

"On any given Sunday, you're either gonna win or you're gonna lose. The point is, can you win or lose like a man?"

For me, there's enjoyment to be had from both the thinking and shooting. Being open to both is where it's about for me. As an example, the recent NAG weekender was played for fun and the hardcore whiners left after the first day because the original plan had to change due to circumstances beyond control. Which, when you think about it, is what happens in the real world too. The rest of us made the best of it and had a ball.

I agree about 98% with both Puding and Doc, there should be room for everyone in this sport, though possibly not all on the same field at the same time I do think though that the ladder plan is a good idea, and the Cup could be the annual "culmination" of that. I think that's how it might develop over the next year or two.

It's great to see a thoughtful discussion here for a change. I wish they were all like that.

Fallschirmjager

i would like to add my tuppence worth here....

some of the best games ive had, i could not tell you now if i won or lost. The ones that stick in my mind now are about the enjoyment.

Thats not to say i dont care if i win or loose, but its not the critical component. I too would like to echo the bad winner mentality mentioned by Lemming. We have in airsoft, an issue with that IMHO. Some of the teams i have seen play are very insular, closed to any external discussion, complain continuously about other players, yet refuse to help but it is not the individuals as i have played with a lot of them and they are great players. My real concern here is how airsoft will be affected in the middle to long term. New players who experience this are sure to be affected and it will affect our long term viability. On the issue of cheating, lets say it is now common. I for one really dont understand why someone would bother but that added to how insular it is becoming is a potentially dangerous mix.

I do however have some suggestions:

1. Mandate that all new players have to be teamed with an experienced player to start off with. If you have not played regularly on a site, you are teamed up and tasked with staying with you colleague who assesses how you are as a player.

2. Cheating has to have an effect. Currently it has none. Personally i would not ban a player i would charge them more for the following games, regardless of where in the country. A charge that keeps rising until the message is received and if that was circulated across all sites, that would go a long way to send a message. That makes it more of an incentive for the sites to hunt out these people. No i am not suggesting it is a site operators only solution, but a financial inducement is always a great way of stopping negatives and encouraging positives. Of course it will be difficult and some sites will fear that they will wind up with no one playing, but it is inevitable that will happen if we do nothing. It might appear having large numbers is great for a site, but with cheating...it is death by a thousand cuts.

3. No one has been trained. There is a reason the military train. No, i am not say 'drop and give me 20', but i am saying we all need a basic set of guidelines. Do we have a standard for comms? I have lost count of the number of games i heard people say 'have you a radio', i answer yes...they ask the frequency (sometimes) and thats it. What we need is simple stuff. The same goes for objectives within the games. Currently we all go out to a field and charge. Dont get me wrong some games like this are fun, but they quickly bore. What we need is a mix. One on and one off. This will require some education on how small teams operate. Again, there is a business opportunity here for site operators but we need a standard for airsoft in ireland. Mandate all new players go through it. If you choose not to go through the education, perfect, then you only play 50% of the games...namely the charge and wear an armband to clearly identify you. I for one, think we now have a whole group of people who think the charge is airsoft. What we need is a set of educated players on teams and team dynamics and how to play i.e. basic training. It should be about playing as a team and winning...not just winning. You learn a lot about people playing airsoft, far more then people are aware. It is a great sport to see how people react under pressure. a cheater in airsoft is a cheater in life. Learning restraint, learning to react as a unit is a great skill, and not just in airsoft.

just my opinion....

Leftyflip

Fallschirmjager wrote: »

2. Cheating has to have an effect. Currently it has none. Personally i would not ban a player i would charge them more for the following games, regardless of where in the country. A charge that keeps rising until the message is received and if that was circulated across all sites, that would go a long way to send a message. That makes it more of an incentive for the sites to hunt out these people. No i am not suggesting it is a site operators only solution, but a financial inducement is always a great way of stopping negatives and encouraging positives. Of course it will be difficult and some sites will fear that they will wind up with no one playing, but it is inevitable that will happen if we do nothing. It might appear having large numbers is great for a site, but with cheating...it is death by a thousand cuts.

just my opinion....

This just goes back to the "Blacklist" thing. Whilst I agree with your post this is more than likely going to fail as the blacklist did.

fleecymanager

:Dthis is more like it , a propper chat no crap , this thread should be up for thread of the year , some asome ideas i love the idea of a rolling over story line milsim, more of the same lads.......this makes fleecy happy:D

gerrowadat

My 2c.:

Competitive speedball works a lot better when there's no real way to cheat. If you see speedball paintball, there are a few obstacles, but it's an open field, and the spectators can see everyone at all times. I've yet to go to an airsoft venue that's set up like this. It's nothing to do with the honesty of the players -- sometimes in the heat of the moment you honestly don't notice hits, while someone else might. We've all done it. Paint doesn't lie.

I think milsim is a lot more attractive than skirmish for a lot of people, because they play it for the love of the game. When I play, I honestly don't care who wins. If another team 'won' a scenario and were boasting about being a 'better' team, I'd not want to play them again tbh. Even some of the trash-talk is borderline for me. I-FAT vs. federation is great. Jebrovia vs. NATo is great. Team vs. Team, not so much.

I play milsim because of this differentiation -- it's completely bipolar. You either care if you win, or you don't. The concept of going to a weekend and giving a **** if my team wins is alien to me. It's like going to salute dressed as an Airborne guy and trying to 'win' at re-enactment against the romans, or bringing a vintage car to a rally and trying to race the other vintage cars.

I come from a gaming background as well as a lot of Airsofters, and if you've been to a games convention, it's hundreds of people coming together to play. There are competition games, but nobody's there to 'win' at D&D. Winning is a nice bonus, you might get a cool spot prize, but in general you're there to meet like-minded people and enjoy your hobby.

I helped out at Take AIM mainly because I got a really good vibe from the first Take AIM cup. With the setup in Rathbeggan, the safe zone was a buzz -- people were hanging around, chatting, I talked to people I've only talked to on forums, to teams I'd heard had a bad rep to discover that they're sound blokes. It was more like an Airsoft convention than anything I'd been at. That was what I was trying to capture at Take AIM 2 -- whatever about any bottle-out-of-pram throwing that happened, it just didn't have the same setup, the same vibe, and the same coming together of people.

tbh, I'd love to see a weekend of non-competitive play. Grab a huge site, get some camping going, get a marquee, and have an Airsoft convention. Let people have challenge matches and play, and have any prizes or competitions be secondary. It's about bringing people together socially and building on the community we have in an inclusive way, and events like these can do wonders for it.

Masada

gerrowadat wrote: »

tbh, I'd love to see a weekend of non-competitive play. Grab a huge site, get some camping going, get a marquee, and have an Airsoft convention. Let people have challenge matches and play, and have any prizes or competitions be secondary. It's about bringing people together socially and building on the community we have in an inclusive way, and events like these can do wonders for it.

Boy did you miss out on the Pred trip. (despite organizing it. lol )
It was exactly what you described there. Great fun, no super competitive ego's, no team on team stuff, and great craic with some of the northern teams we'd never met before

Hmm, Pred attack anyone?

gerrowadat

Definite for the new year.

OzCam

Masada wrote: »

Hmm, Pred attack anyone?

Anytime, and we're all invited up to Foxtrot58 some time too. I said we might organise a run up up in the spring, when the weather's a bit better.

Their way of playing is right up the alley of the MilSim lovers. They're perfectly happy to plan a weekend when all their guns are kept strictly to 1J so that we all have a level playing field. It'll be nice to see their new site.

Masada

OzCam wrote: »

They're perfectly happy to plan a weekend when all their guns are kept strictly to 1J so that we all have a level playing field. It'll be nice to see their new site.

I should think so, Considering they have a 1j limit up there too.

Ive seen pics of their site and it looks fantastic though.,

Shiva

gerrowadat wrote: »

It's about bringing people together socially and building on the community we have in an inclusive way, and events like these can do wonders for it.

Quoted for emphasis.

OzCam

Masada wrote: »

I should think so, Considering they have a 1j limit up there too.

Yes. If we organise a trip up there everyone would be chronoed to stop anyone making allegations about, shall we say, any lack of strict adherence to the rules. Not that anyone we know would do such a thing, of course.

But anyway, back to the original topic...

JonnyTwoCombs

Firstly, I big thank you to Vents for starting this tread, as this is what we should be talking about, and not the usual cr#p that gets put up.

I have to agree with Vents and the other posters who have similar ideas. Milsim IS the way forward for Airsoft in Ireland. The game we all love and play is after all based upon military tactics.

But the basic problem with the game is, it relies on the honestly of the players, as others have said and I am not playing for that long, maybe 8-10 mths. But on my VERY first skirmish, a player, who I would consider to have a lot more experience than me explained his ‘version’ of hit taking, was to only take the hits you want too or have too. :eek:This version has also been giving to me by similar players on other sites. (I’m on a bit of an Airsoft pilgrimage). I have also seen players with the attitude of; I’m not taking a hit from that nobody, I’m playing for years and am a great player and expert marksman! But this has not stopped me from playing, and for the most part enjoying Airsoft, but it shows how somewhat endemic the cheating is.:mad: :mad:

As some posters have mentioned, the site owners have been slow to realise the potential of Milsim, and instead concentrating on skirmishing only, (the few who do being in the minority) but, who can blame them. They are after all commercial interests. Perhaps it is cost, or perhaps they haven’t got the experience or are unwilling to research the required scenarios to run a Milsim event. Some sites have at lease made an effort to provide a Milsim experience, and have made a very good go of it, MAC & HRTA I’m looking at you guys. (I await my invite)

It is a Milsim event that should must decide the best Airsoft team in Ireland. It should be held over at lease two days, and include day / night fighting, a number of terrains, a limit on the amount of BB carried by a player at any given time, mission critical objectives etc. One poster used the example of how, in other countries there are more ways to succeed than just firing off a lot of plastic and someone even mentioned the lack of tactics at the recent Aim Cup, (not having a pop at the cup) but this is no way, in my opinion to decide the top team.

The team who complete all of their objectives would then be the winner, not because they have better AEG’s, more BB’s or can run faster back and fort from their re-spawn point. To ensure an evenly playing field, one large team could be formed to always be the ‘enemy’, although this team would have to be much larger than regular teams I would, I am sure really show who plays for the playing experience or who shows up for the medals. In this case, uniforms and load out, or ‘look’ would be more important for identification than the Guggi factor.

As Doc suggested, a league on some form or other, perhaps a sort of skirmish league would be an excellent move forward. Teams either ‘call each other out’, or a neutral body / person is appointed to draw teams and venues. In either case someone neutral would also have to oversee results. The weekly up coming matches, results and team position could be posted in AIM (on the back pages probably).

TheDoc

You dont need to even have a two day event to decide one match, thats not my point.

You could go down this very simplistic route.


Each base has a flag, you need to capture that flag and return it to your base. This game runs for 60 minutes, 30-40 minutes through the game two ammo crates are dropped randomly in the field to simulate intel dropped from flying over planes.

This ensure a team have an assaulting group trying to capture the other flag, a defensive group protecting their own flag, half way through, the commander needs to assign people to capture those ammo boxes.

Does he go for both at the same time?
Does he just go for one?
How does he divide his men between all the objectives?
Sacrifice some defense , sacrifice his offense, take some from both?
Have one man recon for the box, had a group?

These are things that need to penetrate a commanders brain , and all this happens in seconds.

Read this sentence as fast as you can

Wheres the box, whats it look like, how big, can one man carry it, we are on the front foot I'll take men from defence to get it, but then we might get pushed back and overun, Ill get some offence to get it, but then they can push past our front line, I'll get two men to recon for it, but which two, they need to have comms, who has comms, **** my flank is taking a pounding I need to move some defence over there, **** my defence is now down 3 men, HOW THE **** AM I GETTING THAT BOX.

That conversation would happen in my head in seconds, then I'd make the call Dependant on the situation.

Theres a scenario for sixty minutes that would test a team. It would test a commander metal in how he copes. It would require serious micro management, in moving your forces into varying different roles, your team would be tested in offense, defense and adapting to the situation, players will need to move seemlessly between offense and defense.

Now imagine you took that same game, and put a 4 man mercenary team in that is trying to gather the intel as its worth alot of money, so you have two teams fighting each other and then a new 4 man team inserted looking for the box.

3 teams looking for this intel. That means absolute **** your pants if your a commander, absolute adrenaline rush if your a player.

That game took me what 3 minutes to think up?

Games don't have to be longer, ammo limits don't have to be lower, there doesn't have to be a story. There just needs to be a scenario that tests a number of aspects of a team. And not only in one sitting, thats what rounds are for, and terrain is for.

Hopefully next year we see some inventive game making, that promotes more then just speed. The take aim guys should be able to look at two cups and realise what has happend in every game, has been very much the same, speed and aggresion has won, cunning,guile and creativity has lost out. There needs to be more then one dimensional testing

JonnyTwoCombs

But Pudding, you have indeed got the wrong end of my post (just a little). You are right in saying the game shouldn’t be ‘I won’ or I’m the best. But all games / sports have a competitive side to them and whether we like to admit to it or not, Airsoft is no different. :eek: It should really be in the playing of the game, that the winner is found.

By competition for best team, I mean having the skills and tactics needed to complete the tasks asked of your team against a numerically superior force.

For example the larger and more heavily armed ‘enemy team’, would be able to deploy manpower across a large area. Competing teams would be giving objectives to compete, such as gathering Intel, Covert insertion, ambushing enemy patrols, meeting a spy to collect intel, etc Points would be awarded for completion of task, lives used, ammo used etc.

I am sure, some will no doubt still need to win at all costs, but others (the majority I hope) will consider point scoring as been second to completing their task / objective. As the ability to do that, would make them the best team.

hitman_

TheDoc wrote: »

You dont need to even have a two day event to decide one match, thats not my point.

You could go down this very simplistic route.


Each base has a flag, you need to capture that flag and return it to your base. This game runs for 60 minutes, 30-40 minutes through the game two ammo crates are dropped randomly in the field to simulate intel dropped from flying over planes.

This ensure a team have an assaulting group trying to capture the other flag, a defensive group protecting their own flag, half way through, the commander needs to assign people to capture those ammo boxes.

Does he go for both at the same time?
Does he just go for one?
How does he divide his men between all the objectives?
Sacrifice some defense , sacrifice his offense, take some from both?
Have one man recon for the box, had a group?

These are things that need to penetrate a commanders brain , and all this happens in seconds.

Read this sentence as fast as you can

Wheres the box, whats it look like, how big, can one man carry it, we are on the front foot I'll take men from defence to get it, but then we might get pushed back and overun, Ill get some offence to get it, but then they can push past our front line, I'll get two men to recon for it, but which two, they need to have comms, who has comms, **** my flank is taking a pounding I need to move some defence over there, **** my defence is now down 3 men, HOW THE **** AM I GETTING THAT BOX.

That conversation would happen in my head in seconds, then I'd make the call Dependant on the situation.

Theres a scenario for sixty minutes that would test a team. It would test a commander metal in how he copes. It would require serious micro management, in moving your forces into varying different roles, your team would be tested in offense, defense and adapting to the situation, players will need to move seemlessly between offense and defense.

Now imagine you took that same game, and put a 4 man mercenary team in that is trying to gather the intel as its worth alot of money, so you have two teams fighting each other and then a new 4 man team inserted looking for the box.

3 teams looking for this intel. That means absolute **** your pants if your a commander, absolute adrenaline rush if your a player.

That game took me what 3 minutes to think up?

Games don't have to be longer, ammo limits don't have to be lower, there doesn't have to be a story. There just needs to be a scenario that tests a number of aspects of a team. And not only in one sitting, thats what rounds are for, and terrain is for.

Hopefully next year we see some inventive game making, that promotes more then just speed. The take aim guys should be able to look at two cups and realise what has happend in every game, has been very much the same, speed and aggresion has won, cunning,guile and creativity has lost out. There needs to be more then one dimensional testing

Now that post was worth reading & quoting.
Said what I wanted, but better. Thanks Doc.

JonnyTwoCombs

Sorry Doc, but thats just advanced skirmising!

Milsim should be just that, military simulation. But I do agree the need for better game planning.

Maybe the competition for best team doesn’t have to go on for days, and you (DOC) are right saying the tasks should include more than ‘caveman tactics’.

The full scenario!

The larger enemy team is allowed time to set up defences and secure their strong points. They are giving a much larger ammo limit than the attacking (completing) teams and have maybe 4/5 re-spawns (using the medic rule). Some areas of the site could be marked as mine fields and so, are off limits. Other areas, or Areas of Operation (AO’s) as in real life could be allocated to other ‘imaginary’ units, and completing teams may not enter these areas. These could be policed by the marshals to ensure teams observe this.

The site for the competition would have to have different entry and exit points so that teams could not mix, or be over heard talking about a particular task, or area. As this would spoil the realism and give following teams an advantage (however slight).

Before entering the battle space, each Team Leader is briefed, giving all the available Intel, perhaps a crude map, some photos of objectives and other such like that would normally be provided at such an O Group. The T/L is then allowed return and brief the team. This planning stage should have a strict time limit, and teams using more time are penalised.

In other to ensure each team starts on an even playing field, each are giving the same basic four / five tasks. Teams who fail to complete the assigned tasks are penalised.

The first task could be to attack and defeat an enemy courier, who has become isolated from the main enemy group. The team would have to search for and recover intel from them in order to move on and score points. Perhaps, the intel shows plans for the enemy to ‘kidnap and kill’ a nearby friendly, and the team is now tasked to save the friendly. (This could be done by way of written instruction within the intel, or for added realism, the team radio back the details and ‘higher authority’ authorises the new task, and gives details of the friendly’s location). This intel pack would also contain other information that would aid / hinder the team in their mission. The intel could also be used to increase the difficultly of the task, for exsample a team member loses some important item, now the team must operate without it.

Basing the point system on achievable tasks, would create the competitive edge. The player / team without the skills needed to complete the mission would be quickly exposed. Instead the player who takes the scenario serious and uses their skills and the skills of his / her team mates will ultimately win.

Hivemind187

... I find this idea of "the best team" worrying and disheartening. Are people really this stupid?

It is impossible to be the best at absolutely everything - airsoft is too complex and fluid a game for that. Sure you can say one team is proportionally better than another when it comes to assaults or defences or cqb work or what have you but each and every team will have a weak link upon which another team may capitalise - and thats only in casual skirmishing, MilSim makes this equation even more complex by introducing things like adherence to rules of engagement, command structure, trigger discipline etc etc etc ad nauseum.

Frankly, this "we are the best" or "we are the premier team" stuff is so much willy waving. It's been here since we got started and I dont really see it going away (mostly because there are some giant ego's knocking about, mine included) and it's not really based on much other than "we have managed to all wear the same kit" or "we have more members than you" or "We have the most expensive kit".

What we should be concerned with is "which teams are best to play with". Which teams you have the best experience with, which ones you can communicate and work with best. I have personal preferences for teams - so do you. There are teams you love to see playing, teams you are indifference to and teams you would be happier about if their convoy crashed on the way to the venue.

When we bleat on about someone being better than someone else we miss the basic point of Airsoft (and MilSim especially) is that it is meant to be a break from the 9-5 grind. An experience that shakes up your week with a little chaos and conflict.

Ultra-competitive attitudes and speed-ball type games should be left where they belong - in Paintball - along with the spandex suits and cheesy logos. It's bright, its flashy and its sponsored by Red Bull. Things airsoft will never be because it simply isnt visually exciting to an uninitiated spectator.

I don't like competitiveness to that degree when I'm on the field. It leads to cheating and dangerous play when its force on force. The SWAT Roundup concept is the way competitive airsoft should be played - skill vs skill to see which teams really can walk-the-walk rather than hide in a bush and cheat their way to victory.

fleecymanager

the game dark mist up in fingal is a perfrct way for people to get a taste of a milsim type game , we were sent to our base with no info on what was about to happen , when we got there the info on our first mission was given to us in an envelope so we had to get ourselves a commander ,split our team into groupes and plan our game there and then and as the game progresed we got new missions and depending on the outcome of those the game changed with that it was asome, might not be what some would call milsim but is a dam good way to introduce players to a chain of command and varing of game play ie. more than one ending or objective....milsim/battlesim/skirmish call it what you like . i think its the way to go everone new/old hand got a part in that night game, if lads want to take it further and go for full spec loadouts,mid and low caps by all means do so ,that how things evolve

JonnyTwoCombs

Sport is always going to be competitive; it is the nature of the beast I’m afraid.

You can hardly expect people who participate in a sport such as Airsoft, or indeed any other sport not to want to test themselves against their peers, it is only natural.

fleecymanager wrote: »

the game dark mist up in fingal is a perfrct way for people to get a taste of a milsim type game , we were sent to our base with no info on what was about to happen , when we got there the info on our first mission was given to us in an envelope so we had to get ourselves a commander ,split our team into groupes and plan our game there and then and as the game progresed we got new missions and depending on the outcome of those the game changed with that it was asome, might not be what some would call milsim but is a dam good way to introduce players to a chain of command and varing of game play ie. more than one ending or objective....milsim/battlesim/skirmish call it what you like . i think its the way to go everone new/old hand got a part in that night game, if lads want to take it further and go for full spec loadouts,mid and low caps by all means do so ,that how things evolve

Mmmmm! Sound familiar!

Puding

Sport is always going to be competitive; it is the nature of the beast I’m afraid.

yes but a lot of people do not play airsoft as a sport, so it does not have to be competitive, milsim for example is not a sport it is about an experience, from experience the mid set has more to do with role play than competitive sport

airsoft does not always = competitive

JonnyTwoCombs

I would disagree. Judging by the number of teams that competed in the recent aim cup, I would say those who participate in Airsoft purely for the experience are the minority.

If the sport of Airsoft in any form, be it skirmish or Milsim is to survive and grow, it needs to become competitive at some level.

You cannot expect teams, who invest their own time and money into practicing tactics and teamwork, purchasing their equipment etc to only want the experience of gaming. The sport would quickly become another form of LARPING, practiced only by a few.


For example, another thread here is about PR3. Players went for the experience, but in the posts on the subject people speak of how well they did in their tasks, and how the Irish contingent were critical in securing the victory for one side. Victory = WIN. If there was any sort of win mentality then it was competitive.

The way forward for the sport has to be on a competitive basis.

Puding

I would disagree. Judging by the number of teams that competed in the recent aim cup, I would say those who participate in Airsoft purely for the experience are the minority.

yes in Ireland, but look at airsoft in the rest of the work and the competitive angle is actually in the minority

If the sport of Airsoft in any form, be it skirmish or Milsim is to survive and grow, it needs to become competitive at some level.

why? making it competitive would be detrimental to the true milsim experience as stated by others in this thread

You cannot expect teams, who invest their own time and money into practicing tactics and teamwork, purchasing their equipment etc to only want the experience of gaming. The sport would quickly become another form of LARPING, practiced only by a few.

wow sorry but welcome to a hobby, many people actually spend more money on the milsim/larping side of airsoft and the competitive angle, go and look how much it is to do accurate impressions sometimes, this is done for the experience not for any competitive angle

For example, another thread here is about PR3. Players went for the experience, but in the posts on the subject people speak of how well they did in their tasks, and how the Irish contingent were critical in securing the victory for one side. Victory = WIN. If there was any sort of win mentality then it was competitive.

and what does that have to do with it? some people think that is was a bad thing, did you read all of this thread?

The way forward for the sport has to be on a competitive basis.

you have not seen airsoft outside of ireland have you?

both areas have there place in airsoft, but competitive airsoft is not the be all and end all of airsoft in any remote way

my 2 cents