A call to all Lower Paid PS Workers

Liam79

Leave the union, take away your subscrition fees
The "Boys" are only interested in looking after the i"mportant civil servants......"

They could care less about your Clerical Officers, your library Assistants, your outdoor workers......

Hit them where is hurts, leave the unions

This 12 day thing is a disgrace.

Between this and the levy people who were making 35k last year are now 12 1/2% down on last year as a result of this.

And they say its not a pay cut :rolleyes:

gerry28

Liam79 wrote: »

Leave the union, take away your subscrition fees
The "Boys" are only interested in looking after the i"mportant civil servants......"

They could care less about your Clerical Officers, your library Assistants, your outdoor workers......

Hit them where is hurts, leave the unions

This 12 day thing is a disgrace.

Between this and the levy people who were making 35k last year are now 12 1/2% down on last year as a result of this.

And they say its not a pay cut :rolleyes:

I think the CPSU should target all the grade 3, 4 and 5's along with the other lower paid. It makes little sense being in the same union as someone earling 150K

mawk

taking an eighth off 35k put you pretty much bang on the national average industrial wage. Earning exactly what everyone else earns sounds pretty fair to me

Riskymove

mawk wrote: »

taking an eighth off 35k put you pretty much bang on the national average industrial wage. Earning exactly what everyone else earns sounds pretty fair to me

I think you have a fairly thin grasp of statistics!

Liam79

mawk wrote: »

taking an eighth off 35k put you pretty much bang on the national average industrial wage. Earning exactly what everyone else earns sounds pretty fair to me

:rolleyes: Good man yourself

And the point was lower paid PS workers have a union who are not interested in working for them, so i suggest they leave and as another poster correctly said, join a union who will actually defend them and not use them as statistics to throw at the government when negotiating a better deal for directors or services

Knightfall

Anyone who joined the PS in the 2 years before the embargo is on no more than 27K, does an eight cut for them sound fair to you? :rolleyes:

mawk wrote: »

taking an eighth off 35k put you pretty much bang on the national average industrial wage. Earning exactly what everyone else earns sounds pretty fair to me

tunney

Liam79 wrote: »

Leave the union, take away your subscrition fees
The "Boys" are only interested in looking after the i"mportant civil servants......"

They could care less about your Clerical Officers, your library Assistants, your outdoor workers......

Hit them where is hurts, leave the unions

This 12 day thing is a disgrace.

Between this and the levy people who were making 35k last year are now 12 1/2% down on last year as a result of this.

And they say its not a pay cut :rolleyes:

Wow - how bitter and twisted are you going to be after next years pay cut and tax increases, and the year after that and the year after that.

Over the next 4-5 years the public sector are going to have pay, pension and conditions slashed.

From next year on, EVERYONE, is going to be hammered by more of their wages being taxed and at higher rates.

It has to happen, its going to happen. Crying, b!tching and moaning isn't going to change reality. The entire countries tax home pay is going to be dramatically reduced by the end of this.

douglashyde

I can't see what the Public Sector are moaning about this time.

Now the Public service don't have to work for yet another 12 days, in addition to all the other days they don't work.

Ms Happy

Riskymove wrote: »

I think you have a fairly thin grasp of statistics!

+1 I'm a PS worker on 26K (full time worker too!!) love to know why people believe the average is the lowest rate. I'd love to be on 36K

Euro_Kraut

Leaving the Union is a cop out. Stay in. Vote agianst the proposal if you feel that way inclined. Try to refore the Union from the inside. Go to meetings, get engaged.

Thats what I did.

Outisde the Union you will have no voice whatsoever. You are as influential as a guy mumbling on a bar stool.

gerry28

douglashyde wrote: »

I can't see what the Public Sector are moaning about this time.

Mortgages, bills etc. Not easy to pay on 28K a year now 12 days pay will be deducted from that too.

Knightfall

You have to say that the government spin machine, incorporating RTE and Independent newspapers has done a great job of turning public opinion against PS. That's the real success story here!!

gerry28 wrote: »

Mortgages, bills etc. Not easy to pay on 28K a year now 12 days pay will be deducted from that too.

gerry28

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Leaving the Union is a cop out. Stay in. Vote agianst the proposal if you feel that way inclined. Try to refore the Union from the inside. Go to meetings, get engaged.

Thats what I did.

Outisde the Union you will have no voice whatsoever. You are as influential as a guy mumbling on a bar stool.

I'm in impact - perhaps they should have 2 divisions one representing the lower paid and one representing the higher. How can they represent me on 28K a year and my boss on 150K a year equally.

Ms Happy

Knightfall wrote: »

You have to say that the government spin machine, incorporating RTE and Independent newspapers has done a great job of turning public opinion against PS. That's the real success story here!!

Couldn't agree more!

DeVore

If you align yourself with the overpaid and top heavy elements of the PS then you are going to end up being treated like them and suffering the wrath of a private sector who are hurting badly.

The over paid public sector upper levels are basically using the lower paid ones as a human shield now as far as I can see.

Front line services need to form their own "union" and cut the top heavy management out and throw them to the wolves. Stop protecting these people with your jobs.



DeV.

gandalf

Leave the union and let it die, far better proposition from where I am sitting

Riskymove

DeVore wrote: »

The over paid public sector upper levels are basically using the lower paid ones as a human shield now as far as I can see.

I'd agree with this to a point...but

Front line services need to form their own "union" and cut the top heavy management out and throw them to the wolves. Stop protecting these people with your jobs.

Firstly, I dont agree that all the "Front line" services are the "lower paid"

Secondly, in many union structures front line and management are seperate


The basic problem to this is that as long as this Social partnership model continues to involves a coiming together of the unions collectively.

The alternative is the previous model where individual unions have their own actions/negotiations. While some front line like teachers, nurses may be successful I would not hold out much hope for other areas of the public service.

Liam79

Risky, I would agree
and frontline services are certainly NOT lower paid, atall!
Its not front line staff i am referring to atall

Its the Clerical Officers, the Library Assistants, the ASO's, the outdoor workers etc

The "dregs" as many used to see them in the boom times

RobbieTheRobber

tunney wrote: »

Wow - how bitter and twisted are you going to be after next years pay cut and tax increases, and the year after that and the year after that.

Over the next 4-5 years the public sector are going to have pay, pension and conditions slashed.

From next year on, EVERYONE, is going to be hammered by more of their wages being taxed and at higher rates.

It has to happen, its going to happen. Crying, b!tching and moaning isn't going to change reality. The entire countries tax home pay is going to be dramatically reduced by the end of this.

How is everyone, excepting those who lost their jobs being hammered?
Please dont reply with the, the private sector have lost jobs" not everyone in the private sector have lost their jobs.

DeVore

At least the frontline services DO something. There are 800 high level management people in the HSE and I know from people *who work there* that many of them are sitting on their arses.

We have consultants and managers across the board who apparently cant be let go because it would bring out the ire of the unions who will call on the lower paid and frontline services to "stand together".


Well its time to *stop* standing together cos that just means you are going to force a fight and ultimately its a fight none of us will win. There will only be degrees of losing.

DeV.

Long Onion

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Leaving the Union is a cop out. Stay in. Vote agianst the proposal if you feel that way inclined. Try to refore the Union from the inside. Go to meetings, get engaged.

Thats what I did.

Outisde the Union you will have no voice whatsoever. You are as influential as a guy mumbling on a bar stool.

I disagree with you Euro Kraut. Attempting to reform the union from the inside is, at present useless. The higher echelons firmly believe that they are carrying out the wishes of the majority of their members (mistakenly of course) if it transpires that people object to their proposals, they simply decide that those people do not really know what is good for them.

As a result, they plough ahead regardless, pursuing their outmoded Marxist ideals and tend to take scant notice of public opinion along the way. If enough people start to leave the union, it may make them sit up and realise that they need to seek a fresh mandate, they may begin to engage with their (ex) members again - a dramatic fall off in subscription reciepts is the best way of getting their attention.

I am not necessarily blaming the individual union staff, but the fact is that they have become an established an ponderous system of organisations who are now, very slow to react to changing socio-economic circumstances. Continuing to chip away from the inside will not have any dramatic effect until it is far too late.

I would propose that members start a petition demanding that the unions return and seek a fresh mandate or staff will leave by the 1st January, get as many signatures as possible (i'm sure there will be a considerable number) list the main points for discussion on the petition itself.

The nub of the issue is that the union's have adopted an employer-type position and whether they admit it or not, are treating their members as employees. They make the decisions and decide on approachs and time frames, informed by what they think is good, not for the members, but for the union - this is totally missing the raison d'etre for the unions in the first place.

It is true that union members get to ballot on various proposals but unless they get some imput into the proposals up for discussion, it is never going to be acceptably democratic.

Ms Happy

DeVore wrote: »

If you align yourself with the overpaid and top heavy elements of the PS then you are going to end up being treated like them and suffering the wrath of a private sector who are hurting badly.

The wrath of the private sector??

*runs, hides behind couch, then realises we're all in this together.....

As i said in my previous post i'm on 26K a good bit under the average industrial wage. I don't work in the PS for the money (obviously) i work in this sector as i want to help people, simple as that! BTW i'm not permanent either.

There have been cuts across the whole Private sector and now the PS. I have many friends who have been affected, frankly there is a huge ammount of hate against PS workers on boards, my friends don't hate me......

Riskymove

DeVore wrote: »

At least the frontline services DO something. There are 800 high level management people in the HSE and I know from people *who work there* that many of them are sitting on their arses.

You wont get any argument there

The Health sector is..and always has been.... the elephant in the room

almost €9bn of the pay bill

However, its not just the managers that are an issue (though its the biggest)...there are entrenched employment practices throughout the system which are ridiculous...including in the front line services

baaaa

Liam79 wrote: »

Leave the union, take away your subscrition fees
The "Boys" are only interested in looking after the i"mportant civil servants......"

They could care less about your Clerical Officers, your library Assistants, your outdoor workers......

Hit them where is hurts, leave the unions

This 12 day thing is a disgrace.

Between this and the levy people who were making 35k last year are now 12 1/2% down on last year as a result of this.

And they say its not a pay cut :rolleyes:

This post is dumb and selfish in equal measures.
It's simple,countrys nearly broke,paycuts are happening.
I bet my life that this poster does not know the simple economics of the state.

tunney

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

How is everyone, excepting those who lost their jobs being hammered?
Please dont reply with the, the private sector have lost jobs" not everyone in the private sector have lost their jobs.

I didn't say "being hammered" I said "is going to be hammered".

This is the first of 4-5 corrective budgets, arguably going to be the easiest of them too.

Euro_Kraut

Long Onion wrote: »

It is true that union members get to ballot on various proposals but unless they get some imput into the proposals up for discussion, it is never going to be acceptably democratic.

I agree. So stay in the Union are try make it more democratic. If you leave the Union there is no chance you will be listened to.

One the problem with the Unions is the ordinary people did not engage and left the running of it to people with a questionable agenda. Apathy is never a solution. It’s like advising people not to vote in order to change the political system.

Long Onion

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

How is everyone, excepting those who lost their jobs being hammered?
Please dont reply with the, the private sector have lost jobs" not everyone in the private sector have lost their jobs.

It is, of course impossible to carry out a coherent discussion on this area if individual specifics are called upon at every twist and turn. The fact of the matter is that any kind of reform in this area is going to be carried out by some kind of blunt instrument, whilst it is true that hard cases make bad law, we must accept that for the overall good of the country, it will be a fact that some will suffer excessively and some not enough.

Therefore, what is required is an approach that will yield, not the ideal result, but the most equitable one. A teired level of cuts, linked to pay grades would be the fairest approach with a lowish cut off point whereby anyone earning less than €x would not be caught. The average allowances claimed over a 3 year period shoule be incorporated into base pay for assessment purposes and the cut levied on this amount.

To take into account the fact tha people have differing levels of financial commitment, a system whereby people can opt for a reduction in pension entitlement in lieu of the pay decrease would allow individuals to decide how much of a hit in the take home pay they will have to suffer, this could be reviewable and people could later opt for the pay reduction and take a higher pension if their long term priorities change.

cson

Ms Happy wrote: »

There have been cuts across the whole Private sector and now the PS. I have many friends who have been affected, frankly there is a huge ammount of hate against PS workers on boards, my friends don't hate me......
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Sadly, a huge proportion of that is media driven. It seems that the various media powerhouses are content to pitch the story as Public Sector vs Private Sector and are more than happy to let it fester. It's creating a civil war of sorts in the country because a lot of people can't see beyond this.

It's cliched but the sooner we realise we're all in this together, the better.

baaaa

cson wrote: »

Sadly, a huge proportion of that is media driven. It seems that the various media powerhouses are content to pitch the story as Public Sector vs Private Sector and are more than happy to let it fester. It's creating a civil war of sorts in the country because a lot of people can't see beyond this.

It's cliched but the sooner we realise we're all in this together, the better.

It's the PS who is making it us Vs them by refusing to help.
We aren't in this together,if we were the PS would be trying to help instead of looking after themselves.

gerry28

baaaa wrote: »

It's the PS who is making it us Vs them by refusing to help.
We aren't in this together,if we were the PS would be trying to help.

What do you mean refusung to help - i'm on 28K and already had the pension levy taken out of my wages along with the income levy.

What have you given???

Long Onion

Personally I am dismayed that we taxpayers have resorted to the silo mentality and are taking potshots at each other - it is counter productive. Can we not just see the fact that the issue has to be sorted.

This PS abbreviation is unhelpful private and public are both PS. May I recommend Secure sector and Non secure sector. This way we can see that, at the very least there is a distinction between sectors of employment. Is security of tenure a benefit that should be paid for? I think that this is one of the main issues that the division has arisen and is being largely skirted.

My own opinion is that if the option of job security was open for those in the non secure section to purchase out of their pay, they would do so in large numbers. What we are trying to resolve here - as a nation - is how much would such a benefit cost.

frman

Long Onion wrote: »

What we are trying to resolve here - as a nation - is how much would such a benefit cost.

I think that the issue is rather how much can the Government afford ?

ardmacha

My own opinion is that if the option of job security was open for those in the non secure section to purchase out of their pay, they would do so in large numbers

Well they might, but when times were good you don't need this and when times turn bad you couldn't buy it. Many people borrowed to the hilt and in general behaved in a risk taking way, suggesting that security wasn't valuable to them.

nice1franko

Liam79 wrote: »

They could care less about ...

couldn't care less.

gazzer

douglashyde wrote: »

I can't see what the Public Sector are moaning about this time.

Now the Public service don't have to work for yet another 12 days, in addition to all the other days they don't work.

What are 'the other days they dont work'? Or are you referring to annual leave which is a legal entitlement?

ei.sdraob

haha yee got screwed by the union leaders who earn 6 figures

Liam79

ei.sdraob wrote: »

haha yee got screwed by the union leaders who earn 6 figures

Disgraceful Stuff :mad:

Reported

tunney

Liam79 wrote: »

Disgraceful Stuff :mad:

Reported

God you're whingy
I mean god thats a whingy post.

ryaner77

To all public service workers out there. Fair play to you for standing up against further cuts to your income.

I do think you are being treated really unfairly by your employer.

Stand together and stand strong. Do not back down to this bully of a Government.

If there have to be cuts (which there does) it should be across the board, private and public sector.

Why should it just be you who foots the bill for this governments failures ?

You have my sympathies and my full support.

tunney

ryaner77 wrote: »

To all public service workers out there. Fair play to you for standing up against further cuts to your income.

I do think you are being treated really unfairly by your employer.

Stand together and stand strong. Do not back down to this bully of a Government.

If there have to be cuts (which there does) it should be across the board, private and public sector.

Why should it just be you who foots the bill for this governments failures ?

You have my sympathies and my full support.

So you are proposing another round of benchmarking?
Good call.

frman

This is the best result for the Country as a whole.

Count Dooku

Right wing FG proposal was more useful for low paid PS workers, then proposed by “left” union leaders, who carres only about fat cats in public sector

Income % Reduction % Reduction
(After Tax) (Before Tax)

€30,000 0% 0%
€40,000 0.7% 1.3%
€50,000 1.6% 3.0%
€60,000 2.2% 4.2%
€70,000 2.6% 5.0%
€80,000 2.8% 5.6%
€90,000 3.0% 6.1%
€100,000 3.2% 6.5%
€150,000 5.4% 11.0%
€220,000 6.5% 13.9%

http://www.finegael.org/news/a/1776/article/

ryaner77

tunney wrote: »

So you are proposing another round of benchmarking?
Good call.

What your solution then ?

marco_polo

ryaner77 wrote: »

To all public service workers out there. Fair play to you for standing up against further cuts to your income.

I do think you are being treated really unfairly by your employer.

Stand together and stand strong. Do not back down to this bully of a Government.

If there have to be cuts (which there does) it should be across the board, private and public sector.

Why should it just be you who foots the bill for this governments failures ?

You have my sympathies and my full support.

<--- Cuba (3000 km).
Vietnam (9,000 km)---->

ei.sdraob

Liam79 wrote: »

Disgraceful Stuff :mad:

Reported

reported for what? speaking the truth??

yee got what yee deserve for being so naive
the lower paid PS workers got screwed by the unions and your higher paid peers

congrats :cool: you only have yourself to blame, a straight cut is the worst possible outcome

marco_polo wrote: »

<--- Cuba (3000 km).
Vietnam (9,000 km)---->

more like North Korea the way things are going, i think Vietnam like China have fully embraced capitalism as an economic policy

gerry28

I don't understand what this is all about really.... if its true that the country is borrowing 500million a week then 1.3billion savings represents less than 3 weeks worth.

Is all this public vs private for 3 weeks worth of savings.

Now, as a member of Impact i am raging at Cowan, Lenihan and the drunk driving loving back benchers - what was this talks charade all for!!

I hope we do not go on strike next, rigid work to rule is the only option.

I hope this government falls now. Bring on a FG and Labour government. I would accept their efforts to fix the country. Not support these shower of B's in their pathetic attempt to fix what they have destroyed.

ei.sdraob

gerry28 wrote: »

I don't understand what this is all about really.... if its true that the country is borrowing 500million a week then 1.3billion savings represents less than 3 weeks worth.

Is all this public vs private for 3 weeks worth of savings.

Now, as a member of Impact i am raging at Cowan, Lenihan and the drunk driving loving back benchers - what was this talks charade all for!!

I hope we do not go on strike next, rigid work to rule is the only option.

I hope this government falls now. Bring on a FG and Labour government. I would accept their efforts to fix the country. Not support these shower of B's in their pathetic attempt to fix what they have destroyed.

you dont realize that we are gonna be paying more than 1.3billion in interest on existing debt alone


the more you borrow the more you have to give back + interest, and ireland is not exactly a low risk country hence a higher interest

gazzer

tunney wrote: »

So you are proposing another round of benchmarking?
Good call.

Maybe there should be another round of benchmarking. I was looking at some circulars in the Dept Of Finance website and for the majority of Civil Servents (EO and below) the TOTAL increase in Benchmarking was 10% and that was paid out over 3 years. Not quite the ATM that a lot of people mentioned. Already 7.5% has been taken in the levy and it looks like another 7% is going to go in next weeks budget.Thats a 14.5% reduction in less than a year against a 10% increase over 3 years. At that stage the decrease in pay is more than the increase given in benchmarking phase 1.

Just for the record, I am quiet willing to pay my share in helping the economy and I think that the union leaders for the most part have shown themselves for the charlatans they are this week but I would like to plead with some of the posters here who seem to think that Civil and Public servents are the children of satan that we are all human and we all have to live in this country. We are paying our share. Ok we get a 50% pension when we retire but that is when we retire. Not now, Its something that will happen years down the line for the majority of people here. Who is to say that there will be a pension for us when we get to retire. The government will probably squander the money and there will be nothing for us.

Similarly people with a private pension whose value has shot down. Who is to say that it wont go back up in value by the time you retire? We just dont know so I think all this arguing between ourselves is really shooting ourselves in the foot.

implausible

Long Onion wrote: »

This PS abbreviation is unhelpful private and public are both PS. May I recommend Secure sector and Non secure sector. This way we can see that, at the very least there is a distinction between sectors of employment. Is security of tenure a benefit that should be paid for? I think that this is one of the main issues that the division has arisen and is being largely skirted.

Seriously, how many times does it have to be posted before people believe it- all public sector workers ARE NOT in secure or permanent employment. This myth that all teachers, nurses, library assistants etc walk straight into permanent employment is so prevalent that people believe it is true:rolleyes:

ntlbell

deemark wrote: »

Seriously, how many times does it have to be posted before people believe it- all public sector workers ARE NOT in secure or permanent employment. This myth that all teachers, nurses, library assistants etc walk straight into permanent employment is so prevalent that people believe it is true:rolleyes:

can you give us the figures % of ps workers that are in full time permanent to those on contracts then?

ei.sdraob

ntlbell wrote: »

can you give us the figures % of ps workers that are in full time permanent to those on contracts then?

there was post on this before ~18% are not on permanent contracts

the rest are....


out of all the people who became unemployed in last year, how many came from PS?