Professor Dermot Walsh and a "secretive" AGS.

AlekSmart

Any opinions for or agin the good Prof`s attributed remarks at the University of Limerick conference ?

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-n...e-1963889.html

Can his views be taken seriously or does he have an unduly biased viewpoint ?

Posted to Politics in error: Apologies.

deadwood

AlekSmart wrote: »

Any opinions for or agin the good Prof`s attributed remarks at the University of Limerick conference ?

I have, but i'm not telling you.

imme

'page not found' on independent.ie, the conspiracy deepens:eek:

Dub_Gda

here's the correct link here

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/an-garda-siochana-secretive-1963889.html

Trojan911

AlekSmart wrote: »

Any opinions for or agin the good Prof`s attributed remarks at the University of Limerick conference ?

He makes some good points.

AlekSmart

He makes some good points.

On the surface it would appear he does indeed.

However,do I detect a smidgin of resentment at an academic emerging to question time honoured practices within the force...?

I have, but i'm not telling you.

One of the traditional responses to such "outside" probing is a "circling of wagons",which,whilst providing reassurance to the actual group being questioned does little to improve that groups standing with the general public.

This is true of Society in general and is not AGS specific,but in the present climate I feel it is of immense relevance to how this country is going to be policed in the next decade.

I`m not sure that many would agree,but the entire ethos behind the secret "Garda Code" (There`s a Dan Browne novel in here somewhere ) may be tested to the extreme in the near future if the gambles of the current Government fail to pay off.

deadwood

AlekSmart wrote: »

I`m not sure that many would agree,but the entire ethos behind the secret "Garda Code" (There`s a Dan Browne novel in here somewhere ) may be tested to the extreme in the near future if the gambles of the current Government fail to pay off.

The Mc Glinchey Code.

Trojan911

AlekSmart wrote: »

However,do I detect a smidgin of resentment at an academic emerging to question time honoured practices within the force...?

Maybe, however, simple issues such as the "Garda Code" need not be kept under wraps.

Secrecy creates mistrust and as a public body the AGS need to be seen as open, honest & fair as possible. Integrity cannot be negotiable.

Gardai need constant training in all aspects of policing. It's not all about swagging crims off or prosecuting motorists. These days, or in the near future, Gardai will see a different style to training which will be akin to social services training. Some may agree with it others won't.

The general public need educating also. For example I saw a person threaten a young kid, about 4yrs old, with the Gardai because he was play fighting with her kid. I thought why say that? AGS are supposed to be people to look up to and be respected not to be feared.

It boils down to mentality all round.

CharlieCroker

Personal opinion so i'm not saying its right or wrong but:

I dont see why any aspects of operational policing should be made public. They're Garda procedures and I personally wouldn't want every tom, dick or harry knowing how i do my job. If somebody knows the procedures for dealing with crime scenes, drug searches, and so on, then they know how to get around them.

All the public need to know if they're interested is the law, which is out there for everyone to read.

AlekSmart

It boils down to mentality all round.

Probably the truth.

CharlieCroker

I dont see why any aspects of operational policing should be made public. They're Garda procedures and I personally wouldn't want every tom, dick or harry knowing how i do my job. If somebody knows the procedures for dealing with crime scenes, drug searches, and so on, then they know how to get around them.

All the public need to know if they're interested is the law, which is out there for everyone to read.
Today 12:25

I would think that many MORE aspects of the AGS`s codes of practice require far more open perusal.
That is however a far cry from requiring the Police force to disclose its operational minutae.

I`m guessing that Prof Walsh is not advocating the presence of a CSI Las Vegas boxed set in every custody room.

Trojan911

AlekSmart wrote: »

I would think that many MORE aspects of the AGS`s codes of practice require far more open perusal.
That is however a far cry from requiring the Police force to disclose its operational minutae.

I agree.

AlekSmart wrote: »

I`m guessing that Prof Walsh is not advocating the presence of a CSI Las Vegas boxed set in every custody room.

No need, one only has to switch on the Discovery channel or browse the internet to see what is in the public domain.

Like this website for instance, or here finding the evidence and then collecting the evidence.

All in the public domain and in the name of science, no secrets there...

trad

Anyone had a look at the Garda website www.garda.ie/

I visited it this week and was surprised at the amount of information available there and the number of press releases posted on current events. Make your own mind up.

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2003/09/14/story253649654.asp
Mc Dowell made it illegal for Gardai to speak to journalists (with jail time).

Whether you agree or disagree just contrast it with the freedom of speech in the US where officers speak freely on camera. Here your not supposed to say a thing without the press office approving. Maybe this is the kind of thing the professor is on about?

AlekSmart

Whether you agree or disagree just contrast it with the freedom of speech in the US where officers speak freely on camera. Here your not supposed to say a thing without the press office approving. Maybe this is the kind of thing the professor is on about?

Blindjustice,this is what,I think, Prof.Walsh is referring to .

Given the trouble taken by AGS to ensure it recruits the best young talent we produce it therefore appears strange that once attested the individual Member is then subject to a form of mind control which would give the Moonies a run for their money.

It is interesting to note the positive remarks contained within The Murphy Report on the Gardai almost exclusively referred to the most junior members,whilst the Reports findings in relation to Senior Officers was,at best,damning and at worst actionable in law.

However ,I believe that Prof Walsh`s thinking can only be positive when and IF the Garda senior officers engage with it.

That,above all will be the true test.

hk

The problem in this country is too much information is given a higher security classification than required. Over classifying information is dangerous on many levels, especially when it dilutes the importance of information which is of a serious confidential nature . There will always be items of information which will be required to be kept confidential and should be so. Those that do not should not be. Codes of practice can and should be released in this day and age. It just requires that operational guidelines and procedures are separated from codes of practice. There is a big difference between them. Generally codes of practice are boring and if they were redesigned and released it would demonstrate greater transparency but it would be unlikely they would be read by many!

cushtac

AlekSmart wrote: »

Given the trouble taken by AGS to ensure it recruits the best young talent we produce it therefore appears strange that once attested the individual Member is then subject to a form of mind control which would give the Moonies a run for their money.

What an earth are you basing that on?

the locust

AGS deals with a lot of subversives. The less organised criminals know about how the police operate the better. There is a huge difference between secrecy and transparency.

AlekSmart

the locust AGS deals with a lot of subversives. The less organised criminals know about how the police operate the better. There is a huge difference between secrecy and transparency.

It could be argued that every criminal is a subversive of one form or another?

Is it Prof Walsh`s point that this State remains unwilling to acknowledge or demarcate that Difference between Secrecy and Transparency and by this unwillingness aligns itself to the culture of secrecy above all ?

cushtac

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekSmart
Given the trouble taken by AGS to ensure it recruits the best young talent we produce it therefore appears strange that once attested the individual Member is then subject to a form of mind control which would give the Moonies a run for their money.


What an earth are you basing that on?

The general situation may argueably have cooled down since the 2003 SBP article,but surely the notion of a blanket ban on external contacts with journalists may well be considered an excessive degree of control ?

I`m of the opinion that the over-reliance on a culture of secrecy in ANY grouping has far more to do with the levels of self-confidence prevalent within that organization,a situation which occurs all the way right to the Top Floor.

the locust

You could argue every 'criminal' is a subversive i suppose. I was however referring to specific subversive organised groups that operate against AGS in this country.

The nature of the job of the police requires secrecy so it can carry out operations effectively and prevent crime. Police must operate overtly and transparently but also covertly to prevent crime is just as important. The nature of being covert at its core requires secrecy. Whats wrong with that?

On the other hand - I know its a bit of a cringe sometimes but road wars, brit cops and street crime reality shows etc... on tv did the UK police a world of good. Obviously its all edited etc... but the public could actually see what type of situations the police have to deal with and the things they put up with on the streets. Great transparency People can empathise with officers and they saw it from a back seat view of the thing. Great PR/transparency etc...
Although back the original point - I think there's a reason you can't get such manuals such as the code in the shops and i think the answer is a common sense one and yes i think professor walsh raises good points but yes he's bias.

meathstevie

There's a big difference between operational security and confidentiality and institutional transparency. There's no reason why codes of practice and similar documents should not be in the public domain. In a democracy there's no need for the people not to know how their police force should operate and what they can expect when dealing with their police force.

Silop08

Not to beat the old war drum but to be honest what business is it of the public's. The Garda code is a Garda document for the Gardaí. I could say I'd like to see banking code and I can imagine the answer

AlekSmart

Not to beat the old war drum but to be honest what business is it of the public's. The Garda code is a Garda document for the Gardaí.

Perhaps Silop8`s interpretation is widespread within the force ?

If nothing else then Prof Walsh`s little shindig may well tease this fact out into the public domain.

If this opinion is widespread or dominant within the force at large then perhaps the force is moving closer to a mainland European "Gendarmerie" style of policing in the same way that the modern British Police Officer has little in common with Dixon of Dock Green?

I could say I'd like to see banking code and I can imagine the answer

However,even taking the worst interpretation of Silop8`s opinion I`d make the point that the major difference between a Garda and a Banker is that a Garda may deprive you of your liberty,whilst a Banker can only deprive you of your dreams.

Also,I may be mistaken,but I think the codes governing banking and financial dealings with the general public ARE available for perusal to those with the time and interest to request them.

Is it,I wonder,an attitude indicative of an increasing sense of isolation within the rank and file,which if true,bodes ill for the notion of "Community Based Policing" ?

coach23

However,even taking the worst interpretation of Silop8`s opinion I`d make the point that the major difference between a Garda and a Banker is that a Garda may deprive you of your liberty,whilst a Banker can only deprive you of your dreams.

ask a homeless person who's worse the gardai who arrest them or the bankers who took their home? when a garda deprives you of you liberty you get a bed food shelter protection medical treatment and legal advice all for free and all you had to do is break the law. when a banker takes your home what do they give you? it could be argued that the banker deprives you of all these things

bravestar

AlekSmart wrote: »

If this opinion is widespread or dominant within the force at large then perhaps the force is moving closer to a mainland European "Gendarmerie" style of policing in the same way that the modern British Police Officer has little in common with Dixon of Dock Green?


However,even taking the worst interpretation of Silop8`s opinion I`d make the point that the major difference between a Garda and a Banker is that a Garda may deprive you of your liberty,whilst a Banker can only deprive you of your dreams.


Is it,I wonder,an attitude indicative of an increasing sense of isolation within the rank and file,which if true,bodes ill for the notion of "Community Based Policing" ?

What exactly is worng with the Gendarmerie? Also why would a modern British Police Officer want to have anything in common with Dixon of Dock Green? He failed to change his style of Policing with the times and got a bullet for his troubles,remember "The Blue Lamp"?. I can think of better ways for my carrer to end.

As for Bankers and Gardai... ask any carrer criminal who they dislike more... you might be suprised by the answer. Or is it a case of you never having been around real criminals and your opinion is based on armchair politics and what you "think" goes on.

Tell me, what do you know of community policing? I see great work done in the community everyday. It is stronger now than it ever has been.

As for the Garda Code being in the public domain. It is called the Garda Code for a reason, not the "every nosey parker who has got nothing better to do than winge code". It should not be in the public domain as it could compromise operational security and An Garda Siochan's ability to defend the very people who want to see it out. I suppose next you people will want photo's of plainclothes Gardai published under the line that... "we'll if I get pulled over, and he's in plain clothes, at least i'll know he's a guard" :rolleyes:

jank

Silop08 wrote: »

Not to beat the old war drum but to be honest what business is it of the public's. The Garda code is a Garda document for the Gardaí. I could say I'd like to see banking code and I can imagine the answer

Eh, because Gardai work in the public domain and are employed by the state to keep the peace. They are not a secret service they are a PUBLIC service.

By all means if there are procedures used by the Special Branch only then I would say you can keep that secret but tbh the Gardai needs to get with the program and enter the 21st century. It needs to refocus on community based policing.

jank

coach23 wrote: »

ask a homeless person who's worse the gardai who arrest them or the bankers who took their home? when a garda deprives you of you liberty you get a bed food shelter protection medical treatment and legal advice all for free and all you had to do is break the law. when a banker takes your home what do they give you? it could be argued that the banker deprives you of all these things

Yes, because bankers have the power to take homes off people who have paid their mortage?:rolleyes:

Catch my drift?

jank

bravestar wrote: »

As for the Garda Code being in the public domain. It is called the Garda Code for a reason, not the "every nosey parker who has got nothing better to do than winge code". It should not be in the public domain as it could compromise operational security and An Garda Siochan's ability to defend the very people who want to see it out. I suppose next you people will want photo's of plainclothes Gardai published under the line that... "we'll if I get pulled over, and he's in plain clothes, at least i'll know he's a guard" :rolleyes:

Maybe if Gardai stuck with procedures and their code and identified themselves prior to talking to a member of the public then this would not be an issue. When you travel you are keenly aware of strange men who "pose" as police officers. I.E. stay the **** away from them, always ask for I.D, never get in an unmarked car etc. These rules apply even in 3rd world countries so why not Ireland. The odd time you can be shaken down by the official police for a few dollars but thats much better than being dragged away into some random car and fearing good knows what

jank

jank wrote: »

Maybe if Gardai stuck with procedures and their code and identified themselves prior to talking to a member of the public then this would not be an issue. When you travel you are keenly aware of strange men who "pose" as police officers. I.E. stay the **** away from them, always ask for I.D, never get in an unmarked car etc. These rules apply even in 3rd world countries so why not Ireland. The odd time you can be shaken down by the official police for a few dollars but thats much better than being dragged away into some random car and fearing good knows what

Are you seriously comparing the Gardai in Ireland to police forces in some 3rd world countries?

And if you were ever stopped by a plain cloths garda then you would know that they identify themselves. If you have been pulled over you would have noticed the blue lights and sirens. If you are unsure then ask for id. We all carry it, in uniform or plain cloths.

And re the Code, your not missing much.

parsi

foreign wrote: »

If you are unsure then ask for id. We all carry it, in uniform or plain cloths.

How many of us ordinary Joes know exactly what that ID looks like ? (that same goes for any other organisation btw).

I also see no problem with the Garda Code being published - any other publicly funded organisation has its disciplinary and ethics codes published.

You can be damn sure that all the relevant subversives have their own copy of the code by now --> http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0407/D.0407.199104170018.html

AlekSmart

Stimulating thread this,thanks to all who offer an opinion

Bravestar`s comment is interesting,

What exactly is worng with the Gendarmerie?

Personally I have no issue with a Gendarmerie at all.
I believe that it such a force could only be beneficial to the Garda Siochana proper.

However in the context of Prof Walsh`s lecture,it`s something we don`t possess and are unlikely to in the immediate future.

Former Justice Minister McDowell DID pose the Gendarmerie question somewhat rhetorically and gave his own opinion as NOT being in favour of it in Irish Policing terms.

Bravestar also outlines some forthright reasons for wishing to maintain the current position.

As for the Garda Code being in the public domain. It is called the Garda Code for a reason, not the "every nosey parker who has got nothing better to do than winge code". It should not be in the public domain as it could compromise operational security and An Garda Siochan's ability to defend the very people who want to see it out. I suppose next you people will want photo's of plainclothes Gardai published under the line that... "we'll if I get pulled over, and he's in plain clothes, at least i'll know he's a guard"

It may be a valid question to ask if members of the force regard people who seek such information as "Nosey Parkers".

Whilst many surveys have been conducted on Public attitudes to the Gardai,there appear to be few indicators of how the Gardai regard the greater public at large.

For example,in the context of Bravestar`s post,is it the function of the Gardai to "defend people" in the broad sense or is that the express function of the "Defence Forces" who,after all are expected to act in "support of the Civil Power" ?

It will indeed be interesting to see if Prof Walsh comes forth with any elaboration on his conference piece.

bravestar

jank wrote: »

Eh, because Gardai work in the public domain and are employed by the state to keep the peace. They are not a secret service they are a PUBLIC service.

By all means if there are procedures used by the Special Branch only then I would say you can keep that secret but tbh the Gardai needs to get with the program and enter the 21st century. It needs to refocus on community based policing.

Why is it you differentiate between "special branch" and regular police? There job is one and the same, plenty of uniformed Gardai deal with subversives, conduct drug/firearms/stolen property/evidential searches, surveillance etc. There has never been such a large focus on community policing. Go sit in any busy district court for a day... then come back here and we'll see how your outlook has changed.

jank wrote: »

Maybe if Gardai stuck with procedures and their code and identified themselves prior to talking to a member of the public then this would not be an issue. When you travel you are keenly aware of strange men who "pose" as police officers. I.E. stay the **** away from them, always ask for I.D, never get in an unmarked car etc. These rules apply even in 3rd world countries so why not Ireland. The odd time you can be shaken down by the official police for a few dollars but thats much better than being dragged away into some random car and fearing good knows what

I dont even know where to start on this one. Maybe you should stop watching The Sheild so much...

parsi wrote: »

How many of us ordinary Joes know exactly what that ID looks like ? (that same goes for any other organisation btw).

I also see no problem with the Garda Code being published - any other publicly funded organisation has its disciplinary and ethics codes published.

You can be damn sure that all the relevant subversives have their own copy of the code by now --> http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0407/D.0407.199104170018.html

There is a thread on here in which is a picture of a Garda I.D badge, if your that concerned, go look it up. You see no problem with the Garda Code being published because you are unaware of its contents.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Stimulating thread this,thanks to all who offer an opinion

Bravestar`s comment is interesting,



Personally I have no issue with a Gendarmerie at all.
I believe that it such a force could only be beneficial to the Garda Siochana proper.

However in the context of Prof Walsh`s lecture,it`s something we don`t possess and are unlikely to in the immediate future.

Former Justice Minister McDowell DID pose the Gendarmerie question somewhat rhetorically and gave his own opinion as NOT being in favour of it in Irish Policing terms.

Bravestar also outlines some forthright reasons for wishing to maintain the current position.



It may be a valid question to ask if members of the force regard people who seek such information as "Nosey Parkers".

Whilst many surveys have been conducted on Public attitudes to the Gardai,there appear to be few indicators of how the Gardai regard the greater public at large.

For example,in the context of Bravestar`s post,is it the function of the Gardai to "defend people" in the broad sense or is that the express function of the "Defence Forces" who,after all are expected to act in "support of the Civil Power" ?

It will indeed be interesting to see if Prof Walsh comes forth with any elaboration on his conference piece.

To answer your questions: Yes I do see people seeking such information as "Nosey Parkers", unless they have a legitimate reason to seek it beyond curiosity or believing there is some big conspiracy out there.

I get on great with members of the public in general, I see them as people, just like myself and my collegue's, no better or worse, they have a problem which is why they are here with me and it's my job to try help them out of whatever hole they are in. Simple as that.

As for defending people, the Garda Mission statement " To achieve the highest attainable level of personal protection, community commitment and state security". I think that covers defending the public against crime in all forms. But if you would prefare to call your local army barracks next time your in bed and hear a window break downstairs, then be my guest.

jank

foreign wrote: »

Are you seriously comparing the Gardai in Ireland to police forces in some 3rd world countries?

And if you were ever stopped by a plain cloths garda then you would know that they identify themselves. If you have been pulled over you would have noticed the blue lights and sirens. If you are unsure then ask for id. We all carry it, in uniform or plain cloths.

And re the Code, your not missing much.

No not comparing at all. You are taking it up the wrong way. Asking for a police ID in these countries will seem to indicate that said person is well aware of dangers of people posing as police officers as it does happen!! Once that is established that you are dealing with a real police officer than you have to be very careful on what you say do etc. Most of the time they are just looking for a few $$ to supplement their incomes. They ask for it in terms of a "fine". Thats part and parcel of traveling but in some places you have to watch out for the cops.

In Ireland it would seem judging on my experience asking a garda for ID or badge numbers is akin to you being a "Smart Alec" know it all. Just seems there are lots of egos in the Gardai.

jank

Talk to Joe....:D
http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2009/pc/pod-v031209-15m44s-livelinegardai.mp3

jank

bravestar wrote: »

Why is it you differentiate between "special branch" and regular police? There job is one and the same, plenty of uniformed Gardai deal with subversives, conduct drug/firearms/stolen property/evidential searches, surveillance etc. There has never been such a large focus on community policing. Go sit in any busy district court for a day... then come back here and we'll see how your outlook has changed.

If this was the case then why have the special branch, Gra, DS or any other specialised garda team in the first place? Just lump them all in as they can equally do all jobs just as effectively. Maybe thats the problem right here.

Also you presume wrong that I have never been in a court room either and no I was there for the right reason.....

bravestar wrote: »

I dont even know where to start on this one. Maybe you should stop watching The Sheild so much... ;)

Ah so anyone who questions the actions of the Gardai must be an idealist who watches too much tv. You are not endearing yourself to the wider public at large here with this kind of smugness.

bravestar wrote: »

To answer your questions: Yes I do see people seeking such information as "Nosey Parkers", unless they have a legitimate reason to seek it beyond curiosity or believing there is some big conspiracy out there.

Would you clasify Prof Dermot Walsh as one of those people?

parsi

bravestar wrote: »

There is a thread on here in which is a picture of a Garda I.D badge, if your that concerned, go look it up. You see no problem with the Garda Code being published because you are unaware of its contents.

That comment smacks of "I don't give a damn". Is there something really wrong about taxpayers and customers knowing how the organisation works and what its rules are ?

Is it really wrong for people to be aware how they can be certain that a claimed member of AGS is an actual member ?

bravestar wrote: »

. But if you would prefare to call your local army barracks next time your in bed and hear a window break downstairs, then be my guest.

A fairly typical answer on this forum - if you question us then go look somewhere else for help in time of trouble.

It seems that some AGS members are having a hard time dealing with the fact that no organisation in our society has automatic respect/deference purely because of their role. Previously untouchable organisations which hid rotten apples and closed ranks are realising that they are open to constructive public scrutiny.

As I mentioned already - you can be damn sure that the "Baddies" have all your confidential Garda materials so there's no point in preventing the public having access to them.

jank

I would like to add that transperancy and openess leads to trust and acceptance. This is key to a fully functioning democracy. We all saw what happened in the RCC where secrets were held in the name of the organisation. I am NOT comparing the two just using it as an example what secrets do to the even the most well meaning of organisations.

bravestar

jank wrote: »

If this was the case then why have the special branch, Gra, DS or any other specialised garda team in the first place? Just lump them all in as they can equally do all jobs just as effectively. Maybe thats the problem right here.

Also you presume wrong that I have never been in a court room either and no I was there for the right reason.....



Ah so anyone who questions the actions of the Gardai must be an idealist who watches too much tv. You are not endearing yourself to the wider public at large here with this kind of smugness.



Would you clasify Prof Dermot Walsh as one of those people?

They have specialist sections so that they can work full time on their relevant speciality for which the members have an exceptional aptitude/interest in. Do you believe all Gardai have a responsibility to the community in which they police and should be active in it or should that just be left to the community policing units? My point is, all Gardai do all aspects of the job. Some choose to specialise and change the balance of daily workload to do more of certan things and less of others.


"Maybe if Gardai stuck with procedures and their code and identified themselves prior to talking to a member of the public then this would not be an issue."

What are you basing this lack of procedures/code on? Why would a Garda in uniform getting out of a marked vehicle produce an identification badge?

"When you travel you are keenly aware of strange men who "pose" as police officers. I.E. stay the **** away from them, always ask for I.D, never get in an unmarked car etc. These rules apply even in 3rd world countries so why not Ireland."

Because this is not a third world country and a Garda in plainclothes will identify themselves.

"The odd time you can be shaken down by the official police for a few dollars but thats much better than being dragged away into some random car and fearing good knows what "

Where in Ireland have you seen this taking place and to suggest that members of AGS do this is quite offensive. Which is why I said "dont even know where to start on this one. Maybe you should stop watching The Sheild so much..."

As for the Prof, yes I do classify him as one of those people

bravestar

parsi wrote: »

That comment smacks of "I don't give a damn". Is there something really wrong about taxpayers and customers knowing how the organisation works and what its rules are ?

Is it really wrong for people to be aware how they can be certain that a claimed member of AGS is an actual member ?



A fairly typical answer on this forum - if you question us then go look somewhere else for help in time of trouble.

It seems that some AGS members are having a hard time dealing with the fact that no organisation in our society has automatic respect/deference purely because of their role. Previously untouchable organisations which hid rotten apples and closed ranks are realising that they are open to constructive public scrutiny.

As I mentioned already - you can be damn sure that the "Baddies" have all your confidential Garda materials so there's no point in preventing the public having access to them.

The last thing I want is for people to be duped by a bogus Garda. Which is why I told you about the picture, but I'm not going to go searching for it for you. Im sure you can do that yourself. I can see how you might have taken those comments in the wrong tone and for that i'll apologise, reading it back it did seem a little sharp.:)

As for the comment about the army... how many winking smiley faces do I need to put following the sentence for you to realise that it was meant in a light hearted manner? ;);)

Hooch

Right, to all posters - Careful with your answers. This is for discussion not personal attack, public vs private, circling wagons etc...........

parsi wrote: »

A fairly typical answer on this forum - if you question us then go look somewhere else for help in time of trouble.

As I mentioned already - you can be damn sure that the "Baddies" have all your confidential Garda materials so there's no point in preventing the public having access to them.

I also see no problem with the Garda Code being published - any other publicly funded organisation has its disciplinary and ethics codes published.

No its not a fairly typical answer on this forum. That is a fairly sweaping statement. this forum offers some very good productive advice to alot of posters.

The Garda code is just that......a Garda document. Another sweaping statement saying the "baddies" have all our confidential materials.......

Disiplinary codes are published.......try Irish Statute book and the Garda Síochána Act. As for our ethics.....thats not in the code. Garda practices and procedures are in it, so no I do not believe it is up for public view. All the ordinary decent public need to know is the law. And thats freely available last time I checked.

jank

bravestar wrote: »

They have specialist sections so that they can work full time on their relevant speciality for which the members have an exceptional aptitude/interest in. Do you believe all Gardai have a responsibility to the community in which they police and should be active in it or should that just be left to the community policing units? My point is, all Gardai do all aspects of the job. Some choose to specialise and change the balance of daily workload to do more of certan things and less of others.

Then why the secrecy?

bravestar wrote: »

What are you basing this lack of procedures/code on? Why would a Garda in uniform getting out of a marked vehicle produce an identification badge?

Why would he? Of course he/she should.

bravestar wrote: »

Because this is not a third world country and a Garda in plainclothes will identify themselves.

Will? No, Should but sometimes they dont. Have a listen to Joe!;)

bravestar wrote: »

Where in Ireland have you seen this taking place and to suggest that members of AGS do this is quite offensive. Which is why I said "dont even know where to start on this one. Maybe you should stop watching The Sheild so much..."

Did I say it happens in Ireland? No I did not. Stop putting words in my mouth. I was using the above words in the context of foreign police.

bravestar wrote: »

As for the Prof, yes I do classify him as one of those people

Would you clasify any member of the public as not one of those people? Seems very arrogant to me as the guy is criminal law expert as not just any joe so. The usual circling of the wagons and tbf it is this holier than thou attitude that makes people distrust the Gardai.

Hooch

jank wrote: »

Will? No, Should but sometimes they dont. Have a listen to Joe!;)

Joe is about as reliable as an 18 year old FIAT patrol car......

jank

nice guy always wrote: »

Joe is about as reliable as an 18 year old FIAT patrol car......

I agree to some extent.

I remember as a kid about 15 years ago we were playing football in a school yard after hours.These 2 men drove up in a car got out and told us they were gardai. No ID shown. One of us asked for ID and we were told stop being smart! They basicly tried to use their egos and belittle us. They told us to stop "messing" and go home. Asked for our addresses and off they went. We were like WTF? We dont even know who the hell they were. As you can imagine for a 12 year old kid what they hell are we supposed to do? If they asked one of us to get in a car then what are you supposed to do?

By the way asking for ID should ALWAYS be the first step in establishing communications with ANYONE with authority. We dont have the culture here of doing that. We take the attitude of well if he says he is then he must be....

Naturally this leads to many unpleasent endings.....

bravestar

jank wrote: »

Then why the secrecy?





Why would he? Of course he/she should.




Will? No, Should but sometimes they dont. Have a listen to Joe!;)



Did I say it happens in Ireland? No I did not. Stop putting words in my mouth. I was using the above words in the context of foreign police.



Would you clasify any member of the public as not one of those people? Seems very arrogant to me as the guy is criminal law expert as not just any joe so. The usual circling of the wagons and tbf it is this holier than thou attitude that makes people distrust the Gardai.

It is called operational security. A Garda in uniform does not have to produce ID when using their powers, as they are in uniform but asked politely, most will do so without hesitation. I have.

Im sure sometimes Gardai in plainclothes do not produce ID, unless they are asked, not all situations lend themselves to a nice relaxed introduction. As for joe... :rolleyes:

I understand now what you were saying about certan foreign police. Issue cleared up.

What seems arrogant to me is that a criminal law expert thinks he has the right to view documents intended only for members of An Garda Siochana.

johnnyskeleton

AlekSmart wrote: »

Any opinions for or agin the good Prof`s attributed remarks at the University of Limerick conference ?

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-n...e-1963889.html

Can his views be taken seriously or does he have an unduly biased viewpoint ?

Posted to Politics in error: Apologies.

He want's to sell his books. I think he had a recent book about human rights and the gardai or some other nonsense. It's like those personal injuries ads where they suggest that if you have a claim that you never sought compensation for, you should call this number etc.

I'm not sure that Gardai are lacking in transparency as compared with other police organisations, but there are some issues that could be clarified. For instance, it would be good to know where to report a corporate fraud without it going into the black pit of the ODCE, or that there was a dedicated section of AGS investigating corruption in politics.

After all, it's just as important that the gardai are seen to be investigating these things as it is for them to be actually investigating them. The threat of CAB has a much better effect, IMO, than actual CAB proceedings.

johnnyskeleton

bravestar wrote: »

What seems arrogant to me is that a criminal law expert thinks he has the right to view documents intended only for members of An Garda Siochana.

That raises my suspicions somewhat.

meathstevie

AlekSmart wrote: »

Perhaps Silop8`s interpretation is widespread within the force ?

If nothing else then Prof Walsh`s little shindig may well tease this fact out into the public domain.

If this opinion is widespread or dominant within the force at large then perhaps the force is moving closer to a mainland European "Gendarmerie" style of policing in the same way that the modern British Police Officer has little in common with Dixon of Dock Green?



However,even taking the worst interpretation of Silop8`s opinion I`d make the point that the major difference between a Garda and a Banker is that a Garda may deprive you of your liberty,whilst a Banker can only deprive you of your dreams.

Also,I may be mistaken,but I think the codes governing banking and financial dealings with the general public ARE available for perusal to those with the time and interest to request them.

Is it,I wonder,an attitude indicative of an increasing sense of isolation within the rank and file,which if true,bodes ill for the notion of "Community Based Policing" ?

Eh, all English and Welsh Constabularies and the PSNI are mainly governed by a bundle of legislation called PACE and Common Law. All of which is in the public domain.

jank

What seems arrogant to me is that a criminal law expert thinks he has the right to view documents intended only for members of An Garda Siochana.

I dont understand this.

johnnyskeleton

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I'm not sure that Gardai are lacking in transparency as compared with other police organisations, but there are some issues that could be clarified. For instance, it would be good to know where to report a corporate fraud without it going into the black pit of the ODCE, or that there was a dedicated section of AGS investigating corruption in politics.

After all, it's just as important that the gardai are seen to be investigating these things as it is for them to be actually investigating them. The threat of CAB has a much better effect, IMO, than actual CAB proceedings.

Go to your local police station or contact the Fraud Bureau.

And we don't publicise every investigation that we are carrying out.

AlekSmart

I`m interested in the reasoning being put forward by some posters branding Prof Walsh a "nosey parker" for expressing an opinion on the classification of the Garda Code.

A brief CV of the Prof reveals...

Dermot Walsh



Professor Dermot Walsh is a law graduate of Queen's University Belfast and a member of the Bar of Northern Ireland. He was awarded a PhD by thesis by the National University of Ireland. Before taking up the chair in law at the University of Limerick he lectured in University College Cork and the University of Ulster. He has served on the National Crime Council, the Irish Research Council for Humanities and Social Sciences and the Committee to Review the Offences Against the State Acts.

His primary research interests lie in the areas of: Policing; Criminal Justice; European Criminal Law and Human Rights. He is the author of leading publications in these areas, including: The Irish Police: a Legal and Constitutional Perspective (1998); Bloody Sunday and the Rule of Law in Northern Ireland (2000); Criminal Procedure (2002) and Juvenile Justice (2005).

It would appear that the man has some interest in the mechanics of policing and perhaps his involvement in matters Northern may colour some posters views on him.

However,that said,it appears the thread is veering a wee bit away from the Prof`s essential point re the CULTURE of secrecy rather than the existance of individual bits of Secret Stuff.

bravestar

jank wrote: »

I dont understand this.

Let me put it another way. Why would someone who is not a member of AGS think they should view a document intended only for AGS.

Our man in Havana

Someone tried to get it via FOI and was told to Foxtrot Oscar. It is a Garda document and not for public consumption. This view was upheld by the information commisioner.