If you were ruby....?

deccy15

If you were ruby what would you ride at cheltenham?

Kauto or Denman in the gold cup??
Tataniano or Cousin Vinny in the arkle??
Celestial halo or Hurricane Fly in the champion??

fr wishy washy

Kauto,Cousin,Hurricane.

Morgans

Ruby didnt have the ride on either Cousin Vinny or Hurricane Fly in the Deloitte last year. He probably has the call on Cousin Vinny over fences, but it would be pretty ruthless of connections to jock off Townend from Hurricane Fly.

RichieLawlor

Morgans wrote: »

Ruby didnt have the ride on either Cousin Vinny or Hurricane Fly in the Deloitte last year. He probably has the call on Cousin Vinny over fences, but it would be pretty ruthless of connections to jock off Townend from Hurricane Fly.

Ruby took the ride on HF at punchestown and prob would of rode him 1st time out this year but for the fact Master Minded was running. Ruby will have the choice.

WilliE Mullins has already said that Patrick Mullins will not be riding cousin vinny over fences.

Morgans

Are you going to follow me around now with angry faces, even when you are being wrong?

Townend was injured at Punchestown. Its the main reason why Ruby was on board. But again, the RP results page wont tell you that.

At Leopardstown in February, where Ruby was riding in the Hennessy Gold Cup, Townend was jocked up for Hurricane Fly. Hurricane Fly was ante post fav for the Supreme and if it was connections wanting Ruby on board, that was their chance. No one would have expected anything different.

Owners can change their minds and often do. Ruby is now on Denman. One of the main reasons why Townend is riding Hurricane Fly is that he has no Nicholls commitments. There is nothing to suggest that Ruby would ride Hurricane Fly over Celestial Halo, and as an owner it helps that they know who will be riding come the big day.

Fancy a wager on this?

RichieLawlor

I've said in another thread that I think ruby will ride the winner of the champion hurdle. At the moment I would rather be on Celestial Halo, but, if Hurricane fly impresses between now and then I'm sure ruby will have the choice. As good as Townend is, he doesn't have the experiance of big field break neck gallop championship races. Plus he is Mullins number one jockey.

Do you think if the owners of cousin vinny could have last year over again that they would let Patrick Mullins near that horse. (I think the fact he was Willies son played a part) Ruby is the man for the big occasion and if you think sentimentality or sticking by a jockey will get in the way then your sadly deluded.

Ruby will have the choice, I don't know who he will choose yet, but if he wants Hurricane Fly he will get it.

Morgans

Why wasnt he riding Hurricane Fly in his prep races last year when he was available?

So, you want a wager on this or not?

RichieLawlor

Morgans wrote: »

Why wasnt he riding Hurricane Fly in his prep races last year when he was available?

So, you want a wager on this or not?

It would be a silly wager on my part wouldn't it. Hurricane Fly ends up being totally disapointing all season and it's a no brainer. He rides Celestial Halo. If HF wins at leopardstown and the AIG then I'm sure Ruby rides in the Champion

Morgans

So, let me get this right, you say that someone is deluded for thinking that owners will stick with inferior jockeys when it comes to championship races at Cheltenham out of sentimentality.

Yet, in the same paragraph you remind the favourite for Supreme Novices was trained by Mullins and was ridden by an amateur, not Ruby. So, sentimentality clearly played a part. Please make some sense.

You are correct in one thing. That Ruby is Willie Mullins's number one jockey. The issue is that he is also Paul Nicholls number one jockey, and unless there is some change to the rules, he will not be able to ride two horses in the one race.

I think Townend could turn out to be as good as Ruby in the future. Biggest talent riding at the moment.

Morgans

RichieLawlor wrote: »

It would be a silly wager on my part wouldn't it. Hurricane Fly ends up being totally disapointing all season and it's a no brainer. He rides Celestial Halo. If HF wins at leopardstown and the AIG then I'm sure Ruby rides in the Champion

How about a wager on who will ride Hurricane Fly in his next race.

Conditions:
Both Townend and Walsh are not injured or suspended, and Celestial Halo is not in the race.

RichieLawlor

Morgans wrote: »

So, let me get this right, you say that someone is deluded for thinking that owners will stick with inferior jockeys when it comes to championship races at Cheltenham out of sentimentality.

Yet, in the same paragraph you remind the favourite for Supreme Novices was trained by Mullins and was ridden by an amateur, not Ruby. So, sentimentality clearly played a part. Please make some sense.

You are correct in one thing. That Ruby is Willie Mullins's number one jockey. The issue is that he is also Paul Nicholls number one jockey, and unless there is some change to the rules, he will not be able to ride two horses in the one race.

I think Townend could turn out to be as good as Ruby in the future. Biggest talent riding at the moment.

Do you have a problem Reading, or understanding. Patrick Mullins is Willies son. This is a major factor. Afaik Townend is not. And like i said if you care to read it, it was a mistake. They wouldn't let it happen again.

Read the posts properly and I might continue to try to educate

Morgans

Ah, it doesnt work that way. I'm afraid. If you do educate me on something on horse racing, I'll thank you, believe me. I do read your posts out of courtesy. Its the least that could be done. I really shouldnt respond though.

So to reiterate, you say that it was out of sentimentality that Patrick Mullins rode Cousin Vinny. He is widely accepted not to be next or near the talent of Ruby Walsh. That sentimental reason was that he was the trainer's son, in your opinion. Right.

But in the same post you say that anyone who thinks that owners chose inferior jockeys out of sentimentality is deluded, when you illustrate a specific circumstance where they do.

Back to the wager on Hurricane Fly?

RichieLawlor

Morgans wrote: »

Ah, it doesnt work that way. I'm afraid. If you do educate me on something on horse racing, I'll thank you, believe me. I do read your posts out of courtesy. Its the least that could be done. I really shouldnt respond though.

So to reiterate, you say that it was out of sentimentality that Patrick Mullins rode Cousin Vinny. He is widely accepted not to be next or near the talent of Ruby Walsh. That sentimental reason was that he was the trainer's son, in your opinion. Right.

But in the same post you say that anyone who thinks that owners chose inferior jockeys out of sentimentality is deluded, when you illustrate a specific circumstance where they do.

Back to the wager on Hurricane Fly?

It's different, WM is not going to want anyone to jock his son off. Plus he was CV only jockey. Ruby has already ridden HF

Once again your Reading skills have let you down, I'm making the point that Ruby if he wants will ride in the CH. A small field December hurdle run on heavy ground is not in the same ball park.

Townend in in a lose lose situation, If Ruby wants he will take over and if HF gets beat again Townend will be stepped down anyway

Morgans

RichieLawlor wrote: »

It's different, WM is not going to want anyone to jock his son off. Plus he was CV only jockey. Ruby has already ridden HF

Once again your Reading skills have let you down, I'm making the point that Ruby if he wants will ride in the CH. A small field December hurdle run on heavy ground is not in the same ball park.

Townend in in a lose lose situation, If Ruby wants he will take over and if HF gets beat again Townend will be stepped down anyway

So, that's a no to the bet. Fine. Anyone reading can make up their own mind on that. But stop saying that Im not reading your posts, when you change your message and qualify your statements each time.

Im saying that Hurricane Fly is Paul Townend's ride until something happens. Ruby rode Hurricane Fly when Townend was injured. Not a bad substitute to have.

I will repeat a question I asked earlier which you didnt answer, why wasnt Ruby riding Hurricane Fly in his prep races? Especially, when he sitting in weighroom twiddling his thumbs, if it was his ride.

Kauto

Morgans the moron! If Ruby wants to ride HF he can. He has choice. If he has any sense he will ride HF in the champion.

RichieLawlor

Sigh. What is wrong with you, I'm taking about the champion hurdle. The biggest Hurdle race of the year. Show me one instance where ruby rode a second string in a championship race. If Hurricane Fly is the best horse, Ruby will ride. Forget about all the prep races. Ruby will ride the best of his choices whoever that may be. You can be sure if Townend rides HF in the Champion Hurdle then Celestial Halo will be the one to be on.

Morgans

Kauto wrote: »

Morgans the moron! If Ruby wants to ride HF he can. He has choice. If he has any sense he will ride HF in the champion.

Ah lads. I apologise for humouring myself.

Why wasnt Ruby riding Hurricane Fly in his prep races last year when he was available?

Its a simple question that hasnt been answered.

Morgans

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Sigh. What is wrong with you, I'm taking about the champion hurdle. The biggest Hurdle race of the year. Show me one instance where ruby rode a second string in a championship race. If Hurricane Fly is the best horse, Ruby will ride. Forget about all the prep races. Ruby will ride the best of his choices whoever that may be. You can be sure if Townend rides HF in the Champion Hurdle then Celestial Halo will be the one to be on.

Right, off the top of my head, Kempes in last year Supreme novice hurdle. He usually has the choice between Mullins and Nicholls and has a market cornered in that one. It doesnt mean that he has the ride on Hurricane Fly.

Kauto

Morgans the only people who can answer your question is ruby willie or the owners. As far as I can see Ruby will have choice especially come d big day if he wants to ride the horse. Next race will tell all if ruby is riding at the same meeting and still does not ride.

Morgans

Kauto wrote: »

Morgans the only people who can answer your question is ruby willie or the owners. As far as I can see Ruby will have choice especially come d big day if he wants to ride the horse. Next race will tell all if ruby is riding at the same meeting and still does not ride.

Ruby gets to ride for Paul Nicholls and Willie Mullins unless there is some stipulation where the owners specify who they want riding their horse. It can be for a variety of reasons. This can go for Cousin Vinny who was the ride of Patrick Mullins, Chapoturgeon who is owned by David Johnson and therefore ridden by Timmy Murphy, and Hurricane Fly who has been ridden by Paul Townend on every occasion that he has been available.

At Leopardstown in February, Hurricane Fly was pulled out an hour before the Deloitte Hurdle, Ruby was free to ride, was riding in the race before and the race after, but connections had Townend jocked up and ready to go. This was the strong favourite for the Supreme at the time and would have been an ideal situation for the jockey to get to know the horse. Why didnt they have Ruby up? The answer is glaringly obvious, but because tts one that you and seemingly Richielawlor are unwilling to accept, you want to forego the logic of it. The only time Ruby has ridden Hurricane Fly was when Paul Townend wasnt available.

Again, are you willing to bet that teh next time Hurricane Fly runs that Townend will be riding it. My belief (again) is that he will be unless he is injured or suspended.

I'm not sure why you think I'm the moron. Where is the evidence that you are cleverer?

Its understandable why Sam Thomas is riding Denman when Kauto Star is in opposition. And up to this year, the owners wanted a rider who would ride their horse regardless of the oppostion. It meant that when Denman ran at Aintree, that Ruby was riding Star de Mohaison. Did he choose to ride Star de Mohaison ahead of Denman? I dont think so. The owners wanted Sam Thomas to ride Denman regardless of who was the stable jockey. The test of connections faith in Townend would come about if Celestial Halo was injured. As it stands, Hurricane Fly is Townends ride.

careca

RichieLawlor wrote: »

. Patrick Mullins is Willies son. This is a major factor. Afaik Townend is not.

I lol'd at this

RichieLawlor

Morgans, in not unwilling to accept your opinion, I just have my own. As good as PT is he has no experiance of big Cheltenham races. To me Ruby will have the choice and whichever horse he chooses will go off a shorter price. That my opinion on it

Rio 2016

A lot can happen in the next three months, that will enable him to make up his mind.

On the subject of Patrick Mullins, how many times did he screw up on Cousin Vinny last year and the outcome of the Deloite was his fault and not the horses. The sooner he becomes a trainer and packs in the riding the better. An absolute joke of a rider and a costly joke at that.

RichieLawlor

Rio 2016 wrote: »

A lot can happen in the next three months, that will enable him to make up his mind.

On the subject of Patrick Mullins, how many times did he screw up on Cousin Vinny last year and the outcome of the Deloite was his fault and not the horses. The sooner he becomes a trainer and packs in the riding the better. An absolute joke of a rider and a costly joke at that.

I do agree with that Patrick Mullins is a bit of a tree and he gave Cousin Vinny a horrible ride in the Sup Nov, but the Deloitte was not his fault, watch the race again no one could have stayed on.

Morgans

I'm not sure what Mullins could have done better in the Supreme and the only possible race that he could have won but lost was the Deloitte. Cant see any reason to suspect he was unlucky in the Supreme. Its unfortunate that jokcey and connections are in a no-win situation, but there is no guarantee that it wouldnt happen under another jock. If something like that happens, he is always going to be open for criticism. Same applies to JP Magnier.

Whyno

Ruby is a starving fcuk and there is no way in hell that if Hurricane Fly turns up at chel after proving his melt in the trial races and is a as live a contender as celestial halo ruby will get the leg up on which ever one he wants.

Willie Mullins and Paul Nicholls both know ruby is worth 5 lengths at least to any horse he rides for them and the owners will have very little imput to who rides there horse.

Townend is destined for greatness as a jock but he'll have to earn it by feeding off rubys scraps until he gets the number 1 slot for a big trainer and until then he will be a second choice jockey to willie mullins.


Moral of the story RUBY RIDES WHATEVER HORSE HE WANTS>>>>>>FACT

mdwexford

Thread is amusing.

How did Cousin Vinny get a horrible ride in the Supreme Novices, please explain what he did wrong. (The answer is nothing btw, he had him positioned fine if he was good enough and he had every chance at the second last and flattened out, nobody would have won on him)

Nobody knows riding arrangements so its a pretty futile debate.

Also how anyone above can pick a horse who hasnt jumped a fence and has a 0/4 record at Grade 1 level vs a horse who is already rated 158 over fences is beyond me.

If you people with the blinkers on above keep saying Ruby rides what he wants then why didnt he ride Cousin Vinny, you think he wanted to ride Kempes?

Morgans

More solid thought through arguements.

Ruby chose to ride Kempes over Cousin Vinny in last years Supreme Novice and
Ruby chose to ride Star de Mohaison over Denman in the Betfair Bowl at Aintree.

Lads, seriously. Think about things before posting nonsense so adamantly.

Morgans

mdwexford wrote: »

Thread is amusing.

How did Cousin Vinny get a horrible ride in the Supreme Novices, please explain what he did wrong. (The answer is nothing btw, he had him positioned fine if he was good enough and he had every chance at the second last and flattened out, nobody would have won on him)

Nobody knows riding arrangements so its a pretty futile debate.

Also how anyone above can pick a horse who hasnt jumped a fence and has a 0/4 record at Grade 1 level vs a horse who is already rated 158 over fences is beyond me.

If you people with the blinkers on above keep saying Ruby rides what he wants then why didnt he ride Cousin Vinny, you think he wanted to ride Kempes?

Finally, someone else with sense. Its hard around here.

Whyno

It was well documented that Patrick Mullins had the ride on Cousin Vinny. Cousin Vinny ran below par in the supreme and no jockey would have won him.
As for the ride on Denman last year. It was well documented that Finlay and Barber wanted a jockey soley for there horse. Thomas done very little wrong if anything on all his rides on denman.

Morgans

please tell me you can see how this differs 100% from the statement you made about 10 minutes ago

"Moral of the story RUBY RIDES WHATEVER HORSE HE WANTS>>>>>>FACT"

Cos, if I have to teach english as well, its too much for one man.

Whyno

Morgans wrote: »

please tell me you can see how this differs 100% from the statement you made about 10 minutes ago

"Moral of the story RUBY RIDES WHATEVER HORSE HE WANTS>>>>>>FACT"

Cos, if I have to teach english as well, its too much for one man.

With regard to Hurricane Fly or Celestial Halo
Ye have gave examples of where the were certain situations where ruby didnt get the leg up...ie Cousin Vinny and Denman.
Both these cases were well documented that willie wanted Patrick to ride vinny more so for the fact he rode him in his bumpers and also was probably his only chance of winning a grade 1 hurdle race at chel. He wont ride him over Fences because of lack of experience??? hmmm maybe the owners have had enough of his flapping on there star.
As for Denman finlay and Barber made no secret they wanted a jockey to commit to the ride on there horse thus this is why thomas got the leg up. What do you reckon Nicholls was saying to himself in aintree?
What owner in their right mind wouldnt want one of the best jockeys ever not to ride their horse?
As for your remarks of teaching english and bickering over peoples comments its getting a bit old. If you want to talk outta your hole about stuff that no of us has a say in in reality but i`ll be fcuked if i listen to your persistent crap talk.
Sure there may be certain situations like above where he may not get the leg up but i'm 100% certain that ruby will have the choice whether he rides celestial halo or hurricane fly in the champion hurdle.

Morgans

Its clear from the posts that you are newish to following horse racing. That's fine. We all have to start somewhere. But to be so adamant and aggressive about posts which you then contradict in the space of 5 minutes, is just silly. It definitely doesnt help get to the truth of anything. It appears that I shouldnt really take what you type as what you mean.

But at least we are now agreed that RUBY DOES NOT RIDE WHATEVER HORSE HE WANTS. We are making progress. What you originally posted was nonsense. We'll continue.

Ruby generally gets the pick of the Willie Mullins and Paul Nicholls stable (as well as Tony Martin, Oliver McKiernan, Ted Walsh etc) He gets that position from being the best in the business. I think we are agreed on that. He is very rarely on second string because he has the two best stables in these islands supporting him.

However, and I will repeat this again in an effort for someone to listen again. Its not always the case.

It wasnt the case with Cousin Vinny (Patrick has never ridden over fences in public, that is as much a reason as anything with the change. Had he stayed over hurdles, he would still be his ride.) and it wasnt the case with Denman. You say that "Thomas done very little wrong if anything on all his rides on denman". Findlay and connections got tired of his mistakes. That is their perogative.

So, we'll get back to Hurricane Fly and to the question I've asked maybe four times by now and have yet to get an answer.

Why, when Ruby was available to ride the then Supreme Novices favourite in his final prep race, was Townend down to ride him in the Deloitte?

Ruby was sitting in the weighing watching the race. Why is to unbelievable that Hurricane Fly isnt another case where the owner specifies that its Townend ride. Im sorry if you cant answer the question, but if its out of sheer stubborness that you refuse to work it out, then its more fool you.

Whyno

15 Nov 09 201 days Pun 16Hy HdlGd1 55K (J) 11 - 10 3/4 , Solwhit 8/13 Fav P Townend 157 FullFinish
28 Apr 09 122 days Pun 16Sft HdlGd1 68K (J) 11 - 12 1/8 , Kempes (7 L) 4/6 Fav R Walsh 157 FullFinish
27 Dec 08 27 days Leo 16Y/Sft HdlGd1 52K (J) 11 - 7 1/7 , Go Native (10 L) Evens Fav P Townend FullFinish
30 Nov 08 207 days Fai 16Sft HdlGd1 59K (J) 11 - 7 1/8 , Donnas Palm (nk) 2/1 Fav P Townend FullFinish
07 May 08 317 days Pun 16Gd 4-5yMdnHdl 8K (J) 11 - 4 1/22 , Afasheen (12 L) 9/10 Fav R Walsh

Above is hurricane flys race record.
I cant find the piece that ruby wrote in his column on the weekend of his last run on which he was in england to ride Master Minded.
But from memory he quoted both himself and willie mullins in that " its a pity i cant be in ireland to ride hurricane fly because if what both myself and willie believe about his potential to go to the top of the tree in nh racing".
Did you happen to read this or anyone else?
Did hurricane fly run in the deloitte...eh no so why persist in quoting this. There was no way in hell that cousin vinny and hurricane fly were to meet as there was plenty of juicy pots to be won easily by either of his stars without getting a hard race before there championship races.
Your smart remarks are tiresome and as to call me a newbie to horse racing just because you own a few nags or were involved in them someway and post on here a bit doesnt give you any right to judge who knows what and who doesnt. I`m 28 and dont claim to know all but my knowledge of both NH and Flat is extensive to say the least.
Again your entitled to your opinion as am i but the only thing that will decide this case are the declarations come next march.

RichieLawlor

As much as it pains me to agree with Wayne ;)Morgans you cone across as a complete tosser.

There was a story around deloitte time that Hurricane Fly was never a runner, I'm not sure as to it's validity. You try to talk down to people on here when your own opinions are to say the least flawed. For some reason you want to disagree with everything.

I wonder will you be so gracious to admit you have been wrong when Ruby gets the leg up on HF

mdwexford

Look none of you know riding arrangements so this is a stupid argument.

Lets move on.

prettyboy81

Let's go back to the question, people have left one horse out of the reckoning that Ruby may choose to ride......Cooldine in the Gold Cup?

As far as I know think Willie Mullins will be running him in the Gold Cup? Don't know if he has had a run this year.....

prettyboy81

Oh also, in my opinion he will ride Cousin Vinny & Celestial Halo but he will have a lot of decisions on other horses for the festival, its a nice scenario for Ruby!!!

Rio 2016

RichieLawlor wrote: »

I do agree with that Patrick Mullins is a bit of a tree and he gave Cousin Vinny a horrible ride in the Sup Nov, but the Deloitte was not his fault, watch the race again no one could have stayed on.

I'm truely sorry but I have to come out and say this

A sack of spuds would have stayed on the horse that day.

Shan75

deccy15 wrote: »

If you were ruby what would you ride at cheltenham?

Kauto or Denman in the gold cup??
Tataniano or Cousin Vinny in the arkle??
Celestial halo or Hurricane Fly in the champion??

Kauto for the simple reason that he has won so many top races on him and there is no logical reason to jump ship.

Tataniano because Cousin Vinny in my opinion is overhyped because of winning 2 champion bumpers(not the first and won't be the last).Nothing he has done over hurdles suggests he is top class.Maybe he will be better over fences.He certainly needs to be a lot better.Also he has not yet competed in a chase race.

Celestial Halo because he is already proven against top quality hurdlers and again there is no logical reason to jump ship.

Morgans

Whyno wrote: »

15 Nov 09 201 days Pun 16Hy HdlGd1 55K (J) 11 - 10 3/4 , Solwhit 8/13 Fav P Townend 157 FullFinish
28 Apr 09 122 days Pun 16Sft HdlGd1 68K (J) 11 - 12 1/8 , Kempes (7 L) 4/6 Fav R Walsh 157 FullFinish
27 Dec 08 27 days Leo 16Y/Sft HdlGd1 52K (J) 11 - 7 1/7 , Go Native (10 L) Evens Fav P Townend FullFinish
30 Nov 08 207 days Fai 16Sft HdlGd1 59K (J) 11 - 7 1/8 , Donnas Palm (nk) 2/1 Fav P Townend FullFinish
07 May 08 317 days Pun 16Gd 4-5yMdnHdl 8K (J) 11 - 4 1/22 , Afasheen (12 L) 9/10 Fav R Walsh

Above is hurricane flys race record.
I cant find the piece that ruby wrote in his column on the weekend of his last run on which he was in england to ride Master Minded.
But from memory he quoted both himself and willie mullins in that " its a pity i cant be in ireland to ride hurricane fly because if what both myself and willie believe about his potential to go to the top of the tree in nh racing".
Did you happen to read this or anyone else?
Did hurricane fly run in the deloitte...eh no so why persist in quoting this. There was no way in hell that cousin vinny and hurricane fly were to meet as there was plenty of juicy pots to be won easily by either of his stars without getting a hard race before there championship races.
Your smart remarks are tiresome and as to call me a newbie to horse racing just because you own a few nags or were involved in them someway and post on here a bit doesnt give you any right to judge who knows what and who doesnt. I`m 28 and dont claim to know all but my knowledge of both NH and Flat is extensive to say the least.
Again your entitled to your opinion as am i but the only thing that will decide this case are the declarations come next march.

Sorry, have to respond to this. Cos there is an important broader point to be made as well as a couple of more specific points. The reason I persist here is that I would like to have some intelligent debate on horse racing. I have learned plenty from horse racing forums in the past and it would be great if this forum would develop along those lines.

Here is the broader point, its ridiculous to be adamant about opinions on horse racing. Utterly pointless. I originally posted on this that it would be ruthless for owners of Hurricane Fly to jock off Townend. It is the owners perogative to do so, and Im willing to see that Ruby takes over.

Since then, "intelligent" contributors have called me a moron, a tosser, and talking complete nonsense, when their opinions have stood up to no sort of scrutiny. All of course in the pursuit of intelligent debate. Supposed FACTS were proven complete rubbish after 5 minutes. At least Whyno has admitted that his knowledge of racing isnt extensive. At least he recognises that there is something to learn. I know that my knowledge is extensive. To the point that I often think Im too consumed by it. No-one is perfect and there is always loads to learn, the beauty of horse racing if you ask me. But people who dont have extensive knowledge of racing are calling my opinion nonsense. I'll defend myself.

The easy thing to do is to check the Racing Post record of horses. I could get my girlfriend to pretend she understands racing by searching the database. It is something else to actually live the sport and be completely consumed by the sport.

Now to answer, the specific question, Hurricane Fly and Cousin Vinny were two of four horses declared for the Deloitte. Eyebrows were raised and discussions were had on several other forums when Ruby wasnt jocked up on either horse. There were discussions of whether it was a changing d the guard at Mullins's. Hurricane Fly was due to run until a few hours before the race, opened favourite for the race on the morning.

Why I persist on quoting this is that it was the ONLY time that both jockeys were available to ride Hurricane Fly and it was Townend who was jocked up. It was a surprise. This could change, but I will go back to my original post, that it would be a ruthless decision to do so.

So to your other point - why would they run against each other. I suppose its a worthwhile argument except that Hurricane Fly raced against Cousin Vinny already in the Royal Bond. You can check the racing post for proof if you need it. The main reason why they scheduled to race each other was the lack of suitable preps for Mullins's team of novices. He had Mikhael D'Haguenet, Kempes and others (the midnight club) that needed preps also.

RichieLawlor, if you point out where my argument is flawed, I'll be happy to learn. You seemed to dismiss the fact that Townend was injured for the Punchestown festival - again its not immediately evident from the racing post report - Please tell me where my argument is flawed.

Lads, keep shouting how great you are to yourselves. It might help your egos but you arent learning anything from it, but you still havent answered the original question that has been posed five times.

Whyno

RichieLawlor wrote: »

As much as it pains me to agree with Wayne ;)Morgans you cone across as a complete tosser.

There was a story around deloitte time that Hurricane Fly was never a runner, I'm not sure as to it's validity. You try to talk down to people on here when your own opinions are to say the least flawed. For some reason you want to disagree with everything.

I wonder will you be so gracious to admit you have been wrong when Ruby gets the leg up on HF

Its like pissing in the wind in here richie....You heading to Birr this weekend...I got a fcuker of a draw.Should be good though.

mdwexford wrote: »

Look none of you know riding arrangements so this is a stupid argument.

Lets move on.

Here here....

Morgans wrote: »

Sorry, have to respond to this. Cos there is an important broader point to be made as well as a couple of more specific points. The reason I persist here is that I would like to have some intelligent debate on horse racing. I have learned plenty from horse racing forums in the past and it would be great if this forum would develop along those lines.

Here is the broader point, its ridiculous to be adamant about opinions on horse racing. Utterly pointless. I originally posted on this that it would be ruthless for owners of Hurricane Fly to jock off Townend. It is the owners perogative to do so, and Im willing to see that Ruby takes over.

Since then, "intelligent" contributors have called me a moron, a tosser, and talking complete nonsense, when their opinions have stood up to no sort of scrutiny. All of course in the pursuit of intelligent debate. Supposed FACTS were proven complete rubbish after 5 minutes. At least Whyno has admitted that his knowledge of racing isnt extensive. At least he recognises that there is something to learn. I know that my knowledge is extensive. To the point that I often think Im too consumed by it. No-one is perfect and there is always loads to learn, the beauty of horse racing if you ask me. But people who dont have extensive knowledge of racing are calling my opinion nonsense. I'll defend myself.

The easy thing to do is to check the Racing Post record of horses. I could get my girlfriend to pretend she understands racing by searching the database. It is something else to actually live the sport and be completely consumed by the sport.

Now to answer, the specific question, Hurricane Fly and Cousin Vinny were two of four horses declared for the Deloitte. Eyebrows were raised and discussions were had on several other forums when Ruby wasnt jocked up on either horse. There were discussions of whether it was a changing d the guard at Mullins's. Hurricane Fly was due to run until a few hours before the race, opened favourite for the race on the morning.

Why I persist on quoting this is that it was the ONLY time that both jockeys were available to ride Hurricane Fly and it was Townend who was jocked up. It was a surprise. This could change, but I will go back to my original post, that it would be a ruthless decision to do so.

So to your other point - why would they run against each other. I suppose its a worthwhile argument except that Hurricane Fly raced against Cousin Vinny already in the Royal Bond. You can check the racing post for proof if you need it. The main reason why they scheduled to race each other was the lack of suitable preps for Mullins's team of novices. He had Mikhael D'Haguenet, Kempes and others (the midnight club) that needed preps also.

RichieLawlor, if you point out where my argument is flawed, I'll be happy to learn. You seemed to dismiss the fact that Townend was injured for the Punchestown festival - again its not immediately evident from the racing post report - Please tell me where my argument is flawed.

Lads, keep shouting how great you are to yourselves. It might help your egos but you arent learning anything from it, but you still havent answered the original question that has been posed five times.

Do your care to test the substance of my intelligence of racing towards your extensive knowledge. i`ll be a bit foggy pre 1995 but after that i feel i will match anything you have and more after this.
The royal bond was Cousin Vinnys debut over hurdles, Hurricane fly was backed off the boards and Vinny made the running that day. Not necessarily linked but the Willie Mullins interview on ATR the morning of the race was conclusive. He stated that Hurricane Fly was well forward and he thought it would be a good starting point for vinny to learn his trade. Hurricane fly duly obliged and vinny finished an honurable 3rd. This was there stepping stones to different schedules over the season for both.
As stated above it was never their intention to run against each other outside a championship race i.e cheltenham or punchestown.
There have been plenty of interviews with WM early this year stating his intentions with both these horses.
There aint anyone claiming to be great in here but one thing i have learned today is morgans you are very one dimensional in that your like a dog with a bone, your way or no way.
Will we persist in going round in circles over your "QUESTION" because you cant seem to grasp what has be suggested and seem to think because something is suggested that in your eyes is wrong you need to belittle the poster and question there knowledge of the sport.
Thus getting the reactions of you being a tosser etc. In my opinion if your persist the way you are it'll only get worse and thus the HR forum here will go stagnant again.

Morgans

Very good. Some links. Of course you wont change your mind about anything you have stated already.

On the 100% incorrect assumption that they never planned to meet in the Deloitte, or Hurricane Fly was never going to run in it http://www.rte.ie/sport/racing/2009/0215/hurricanefly.html

Some journalist backing up the idea that Hurricane Fly was Townend's ride http://www.herald.ie/sport/horse-racing/mullins-woe-as-fly-has-his-wings-clipped-1652324.html

An interesting champion hurdle thread from one of the busier forums, one I havent posted on in years. http://www.theracingforum.co.uk/horse-racing-forum/cheltenham/champion-hurdle-2010-t79799.html

One from the week of the Deloitte http://www.theracingforum.co.uk/horse-racing-forum/horse-racing/hurricane-fly-t76119.html

Im sure the content of the links will be ignored. Whatever about the forum one's which are only opinions, the papers could be possibly used as evidence to back up what Im saying.

As for proving knowledge. Probably impossible to judge for sure. I'd definitely back myself though. I ran a website for 2 years where I had recommended bets section which at one stage was 200pts in profit and ended up 140pts in profit. After a promotion in my 9-5 job, I couldn't dedicate as much time to it as it needed. Four previews from Friday lunchtime to Saturday morning were a killer. I also didn't like the pressure of it and the hassle it was causing from people expecting updates.

Anyway, the work I did led me to be asked to write several articles for Attheraces, some cheltenham publications, as well as various bits and pieces around the place. It wasnt anything huge. I thought initially that it was something that I wanted to get in full time, but I was a bit disillusioned by the end. But if it is a show-us-your-medals competition you want, go right ahead. But definitely its better to actually take on board what others think rather than automatically go on the defensive and keep repeating FACTS in caps that make no sense.

dodzy

@ OP

Look what you've gone and started

Nulty

This reflects the rollercoaster of emotons this thread had taken me on ->

...:rolleyes:...:o...:eek:...:confused:?

At least theres lots of activity in the HR forum!

deccy15

dodzy wrote: »

@ OP

Look what you've gone and started

LOL,

Anyway if i were ruby i'd go with...
Tataniano
Denman and
Hurricane fly

However i might change my mind after i see cousin vinny over a fence!!!

Whyno

Morgans wrote: »

Very good. Some links. Of course you wont change your mind about anything you have stated already.

On the 100% incorrect assumption that they never planned to meet in the Deloitte, or Hurricane Fly was never going to run in it http://www.rte.ie/sport/racing/2009/0215/hurricanefly.html

Some journalist backing up the idea that Hurricane Fly was Townend's ride http://www.herald.ie/sport/horse-racing/mullins-woe-as-fly-has-his-wings-clipped-1652324.html

An interesting champion hurdle thread from one of the busier forums, one I havent posted on in years. http://www.theracingforum.co.uk/horse-racing-forum/cheltenham/champion-hurdle-2010-t79799.html

One from the week of the Deloitte http://www.theracingforum.co.uk/horse-racing-forum/horse-racing/hurricane-fly-t76119.html

Im sure the content of the links will be ignored. Whatever about the forum one's which are only opinions, the papers could be possibly used as evidence to back up what Im saying.

As for proving knowledge. Probably impossible to judge for sure. I'd definitely back myself though. I ran a website for 2 years where I had recommended bets section which at one stage was 200pts in profit and ended up 140pts in profit. After a promotion in my 9-5 job, I couldn't dedicate as much time to it as it needed. Four previews from Friday lunchtime to Saturday morning were a killer. I also didn't like the pressure of it and the hassle it was causing from people expecting updates.

Anyway, the work I did led me to be asked to write several articles for Attheraces, some cheltenham publications, as well as various bits and pieces around the place. It wasnt anything huge. I thought initially that it was something that I wanted to get in full time, but I was a bit disillusioned by the end. But if it is a show-us-your-medals competition you want, go right ahead. But definitely its better to actually take on board what others think rather than automatically go on the defensive and keep repeating FACTS in caps that make no sense.

FYI i was never questioning your knowledge or experience only your inability to consider other peoples opinions. Straight away you strike them from the record and push your own. This is what got me and then question my knowledge and also of richies and possibly more. I`ve no problem listening to your points and will gladly take them on board and probably learn a thing or two also but the reason you got all the guff and abuse was down to the fact you come across as arogant and if someone is not agreeing with you you go on the defensive as we all do and give as good as you got.
At the end of the day no of us are in the owners shoes nor willie mullins so we can only voice an outside opinion which either could be right wrong or a complete fairytale.
Now Morgans as this place has been stagnant for the last year and we`ve sparked some life in it which is good hopefully we can kick on from here and have a hell of a lot more arguments/debates and possibly make some money to

Also just one other point ya said...You dont believe everything you read in the papers do ya???

Morgans

Im not all that concerned how I come across really. However, from experience of other forums, the best ones are where there is intelligent debate, something that has been lacking around here. Where people’s views are respected but instead of spouting off all sorts of nonsense, posters views are examined and those who proved to be speaking nonsense get ignored.
Here, its more like people shouting of the top of their heads with little, if any, thought going into it. Any questioning of an opinion descends to a big-dick competition.
I use boards primarily for other (non-horseracing reasons) but I do pop in to see how it is going on. It is sad how it has developed with so few worthwhile contributors coming out of the woodwork. Just a series of people saying “Im right and your wrong” Now, I've gone through this thread again, and I don’t really care if Im classed as arrogant, but I think its the arrogance with which you and RIchieLawlor have put forward statements that were compelety wrong, who when questioned on it refused to say they were wrong but instead decided to became personal.
RichieLawlors statement was “Ruby is the man for the big occasion and if you think sentimentality or sticking by a jockey will get in the way then your sadly deluded.” When I questioned this by pointing to the Cousin Vinny or Denman examples, he added that I had problems reading until I was a tosser. Yours was “Moral of the story RUBY RIDES WHATEVER HORSE HE WANTS>>>>>>FACT” Then, both of ye went about saying stuff that he was never going to run in the Deloitte without any evidence. Even now, instead of taking the point on board, you are willing to think that it was Ruby’s ride in the Deloitte and Willie Mullins was deceiving the media in his reports on the morning of the race. All this instead of conceding the point that at the moment Hurricane Fly is Townend’s ride and remains so unless there is a change in the owner’s plans, you decided to play the man and not the ball.
Still happier playing the big-dick “Im right and you are wrong” competition rather than actually learning anything.

Morgans

That's gas.

premierstone

Morgans wrote: »

Im not all that concerned how I come across really.

That is perfectly clear Morgans!

Morgans

I dont suppose there are any of the ruby-rides-the-best-horse-whenever-he-wants-to-brigade about to explain the presence of Townend on 7/2 shot Golden Silver in tomorrow's Grade 1 Dial a Bet Chase at Leopardstown, with Ruby on the 12/1 stablemate Scotsirish in the same race.

If Ruby has chosen ScotsIrish, then we'd best get on now, before the bookies spot the rick.

Its my belief that although Ruby has first choice in the vast majority of Mullins runners, there are occasions when owners would prefer a different jockey on board. Just as it was in last years Supreme Hurdle with Cousin Vinny, Deloitte Hurdle with Hurricane Fly, and just like at Downpatrick last year when Townend won on Golden Silver's owner's horse Ballytrim trained by Willie Mullins, with Ruby riding Selection Box for Colin McBratney.
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