Trade Unions will be crushed

znv6i3h7kqf9ys

It looks like the end of the road for Irish Trade unions. The concession on the pay cuts and the pathetic attempt to sugar coat this with the redicularse idea of unpaid leave is one nail in the coffin. They had it too good with Bertie and since they have always got what they wanted in the last 10 years it seems they have lost their ability to fight. Same as under Maggie Thatcher

schween

I would say good riddance but I think they will cause a lot of trouble yet.

znv6i3h7kqf9ys

I'd say the govt is going to shaft them in the budget and get 1 up by averting their proposed strike on thursday

schween

Won't they just call a strike and hold the country to ransom?

Absurdum

Cowen couldn't crush a paper cup.

znv6i3h7kqf9ys

schween wrote: »

Won't they just call a strike and hold the country to ransom?

Probably try but if they were going to strike anyway let it be after they get shafted and let them loose more cred.

freewheeler

I would like to state that our current problems were not caused by trade unions but rather by a sucession of useless Fianna Fail led governments. people seem to have forgotten this fact.

Stark

schween wrote: »

Won't they just call a strike and hold the country to ransom?

A few one day strikes here and there? Big deal. It's not like a Thatcher's Britain style war that we're facing into.

LoLth

Edison Ripe Lasagna wrote: »

Probably try but if they were going to strike anyway let it be after they get shafted and let them loose more cred.

wouldnt they only lose credibility if they went on strike after not getting shafted ? Surely going on strike after getting shafted would be more understandable?

gerry28

I don't think Cowan is foolish enough to try and make such a mockery of the unions.

We pay our subscription for them to represent us. If cowan thinks he can take a blatant hand at them on this then he is taking a blatant hand at the union members.

For some reason when the pension levy was introduced people accepted it and moved on.

I get the feeling that this budget will be massively different.

Everyone at work is talking about the budget and are waiting and paying close attention to what will happen next tue.

Cowan could run the risk of losing thousands and thousands of votes for a very long time if they are deemed to be too harsh on the 9th.

Long Onion

freewheeler wrote: »

I would like to state that our current problems were not caused by trade unions but rather by a sucession of useless Fianna Fail led governments. people seem to have forgotten this fact.

And you, my good sir seem to have forgotten the fact that the Unions were implicit at every level in ratcheting up the cost of doing business in the country at every single partnership talk and benchmarking excercise over the past 12 years.

The massive profits in the private sector and the rapid rise in house prices were welcomed as a vehicle to ensure pay increases for members. The rising inflation was used for justifying benchmarking increases. Now that we have falling costs and deflation, the same unions re resisting the very logic they used to secure the gains in the past.

Meanwhile they continue to draw 6 figure salaries plus expenses and DB pension schemes - many of which, by the way, are benchmarked to civil service pay rates.

Stark

gerry28 wrote: »

Cowan could run the risk of losing thousands and thousands of votes for a very long time if they are deemed to be too harsh on the 9th.

He'll have gained my vote though. And I have never voted for FF in my life.

seangal

Edison Ripe Lasagna wrote: »

I'd say the govt is going to shaft them in the budget and get 1 up by averting their proposed strike on thursday

They will do this
But then it is an all out strike for as long as it takes in beginning of January and then the government will get it P45
I think this is what the media and unions wanted all along

schween

freewheeler wrote: »

I would like to state that our current problems were not caused by trade unions but rather by a sucession of useless Fianna Fail led governments. people seem to have forgotten this fact.

We're passed the blame stage and the unions aren't helping.
I mean the INO leader tells people to shut up and not interfere. Sorry Mr Trade Union man I didn't realise the future of the country is none of our business.

seangal

Stark wrote: »

A few one day strikes here and there? Big deal. It's not like a Thatcher's Britain style war that we're facing into.

Tell that to the parents of children that have to take days off work due to strike and the loss to the country is about 400 million a day for a public sector strike

murphaph

freewheeler wrote: »

I would like to state that our current problems were not caused by trade unions but rather by a sucession of useless Fianna Fail led governments. people seem to have forgotten this fact.

A bit of both tbh. Ultimately FF are responsible though, yes....but then again, who kept reelecting FF? The Irish people are, in general, idiots. How could we not collectively have seen this coming?

freewheeler

Long Onion wrote: »

And you, my good sir seem to have forgotten the fact that the Unions were implicit at every level in ratcheting up the cost of doing business in the country at every single partnership talk and benchmarking excercise over the past 12 years.

The massive profits in the private sector and the rapid rise in house prices were welcomed as a vehicle to ensure pay increases for members. The rising inflation was used for justifying benchmarking increases. Now that we have falling costs and deflation, the same unions re resisting the very logic they used to secure the gains in the past.

Meanwhile they continue to draw 6 figure salaries plus expenses and DB pension schemes - many of which, by the way, are benchmarked to civil service pay rates.

I disagree completely..trade unions are merely doing what they're paid to do ie negotiate the best possible deal for workers..wages have risen in this country as a direct response to the never ending screwing of Irish people by EVERYONE from the banks down to your freindly neighbourhood greengrocer and EVERYONE in between..sucessive governments have done NOTHING to prevent this from happening with the result that we now pay more for EVERYTHING than practially everyone else in the EU.

danman

seangal wrote: »

They will do this
But then it is an all out strike for as long as it takes in beginning of January and then the government will get it P45
I think this is what the media and unions wanted all along

The Unions or members haven't got the stomach for an all out strike.
1 day strikes are all they can do.

250,000 people loosing weeks of wages, so the Union leaders can appear smug on TV?
It would never happen.

1 day strikes save the economy 50million euro each. Bring it on, we'll have this problem solved in no time.

seangal

schween wrote: »

We're passed the blame stage and the unions aren't helping.
I mean the INO leader tells people to shut up and not interfere. Sorry Mr Trade Union man I didn't realise the future of the country is none of our business.

what he mean is people have called for 30k people to be let go in the public sector over and over
But when the unions came up with the unpaid leave which would equal 5000k people less in the public sector they are now saying " this will destroy the service "
They cant make there mind up FFS

hobochris

schween wrote: »

Won't they just call a strike and hold the country to ransom?

Hold the country to ransom? In the last strike it seemed business as usual to me, In fact their was less traffic... it was brilliant. Not to mention the money that was saved in wages.

In the event they go all out the Army will take over Emergency services.

baaaa

freewheeler wrote: »

I would like to state that our current problems were not caused by trade unions but rather by a sucession of useless Fianna Fail led governments. people seem to have forgotten this fact.

No,that's last years problems.
This years problems are being caused by our inability to reduce public sector pay-ie the unions.

seangal

danman wrote: »

The Unions or members haven't got the stomach for an all out strike.
1 day strikes are all they can do.

250,000 people loosing weeks of wages, so the Union leaders can appear smug on TV?
It would never happen.

1 day strikes save the economy 50million euro each. Bring it on, we'll have this problem solved in no time.

It saves the public sector pay bill 50 million
It cost the Irish economy 400 million
And we all know if any group can afford to lose a week wages it is the public sector workers and it is not them who are losing there home and in arrears with banks
It would last about 3 day green would pull out and the FF back benchers will pull the plug on brian

seangal

hobochris wrote: »

Hold the country to ransom? In the last strike it seemed business as usual to me, In fact their was less traffic... it was brilliant. Not to mention the money that was saved in wages.

In the event they go all out the Army will take over Emergency services.

less traffic LOL
that was because haly the country was shut down
people did not go to work as they had kids to mind
school, colleges closed

freewheeler

baaaa wrote: »

No,that's last years problems.
This years problems are being caused by our inability to reduce public sector pay-ie the unions.

and who introduced benchmarking in the first place???

danman

Where's this 400million coming from?
I don't understand.

Wages bill was reduced, but how did it cost the economy 350million extra. please explain.

seangal

danman wrote: »

Where's this 400million coming from?
I don't understand.

Wages bill was reduced, but how did it cost the economy 350million extra. please explain.

in production ect
IBEC put the cost at 400 million due to people not at work and the cost of all the cancellation ect

baaaa

freewheeler wrote: »

and who introduced benchmarking in the first place???

Who cares?we have to get rid of it now and the unions won't let us.

bladespin

seangal wrote: »

less traffic LOL
that was because haly the country was shut down
people did not go to work as they had kids to mind
school, colleges closed

I went to work, as said already it was great, no traffic.

TBH the unions were as much a part of the problem as anything, they had their hands out in the good times and were happy not it's tough they're kicking up.

An all out strike would be laughable, there's people queuing up to take any job going so throwing an few troublemakers out and replacing them would send a very clear message, not a nice thing to do but the country's not in a nice place right now.

We've been saying for years that the country needs a radical shake up, now's the time.

freewheeler

baaaa wrote: »

Who cares?we have to get rid of it now and the unions won't let us.

well i m sure that a lot of people care that our futures are in the hands of the same crowd who created this mess in the first place!!

westtip

freewheeler wrote: »

I would like to state that our current problems were not caused by trade unions but rather by a sucession of useless Fianna Fail led governments. people seem to have forgotten this fact.

Exactly and the reason they were useless is because they just caved in to every demand.

The party is over. Now they have to clean up the mess and the Public Sector has a hangover but didn't mind binge drinking on the champagne for the past few years.

Benchmarking is dead Thank God.

baaaa

freewheeler wrote: »

well i m sure that a lot of people care that our futures are in the hands of the same crowd who created this mess in the first place!!

No they don't,right now the immediate concern is to keep country afloat.
The future you speak about will not occur if the country goes down.

Dickerty

seangal wrote: »

in production ect
IBEC put the cost at 400 million due to people not at work and the cost of all the cancellation ect

IBEC are full of poo.

Most of these people don't actually produce anything that is worth money, so the production cost is not so high. We save on salary, energy bills, medical supplies, etc. The cost of sending out cancellation letters would not make a dent in that.

freewheeler

westtip wrote: »

Exactly and the reason they were useless is because they just caved in to every demand.

The party is over. Now they have to clean up the mess and the Public Sector has a hangover but didn't mind binging on the champagne for the past few years.

We all know that FF bought the last couple of elections..but that doesn't take from the fact that although yes we have a well paid public service at least they work for what they've got..look at the money that has been squandered and stolen by the government!! I just find it a bit rich that suddenly the unions and the public service are suddenly public enemy #1 and i reiterate..they are not the cause of this mess!

freewheeler

baaaa wrote: »

No they don't,right now the immediate concern is to keep country afloat.
The future you speak about will not occur if the country goes down.

and you would trust our government to re-float us?? for real?? when have they EVER displayed the necessary attributes required for this task?

westtip

freewheeler wrote: »

We all know that FF bought the last couple of elections..but that doesn't take from the fact that although yes we have a well paid public service at least they work for what they've got..look at the money that has been squandered and stolen by the government!! I just find it a bit rich that suddenly the unions and the public service are suddenly public enemy #1 and i reiterate..they are not the cause of this mess!

Yes they work but their rates of pay are ridiculous by standards across the Euro zone. We just cannot afford it.

K-9

seangal wrote: »

Tell that to the parents of children that have to take days off work due to strike and the loss to the country is about 400 million a day for a public sector strike

People will put up with it for a few days, then like the Nurses and Teachers strikes before, public opinion will turn against them. People know the money isn't there.

seangal wrote: »

what he mean is people have called for 30k people to be let go in the public sector over and over
But when the unions came up with the unpaid leave which would equal 5000k people less in the public sector they are now saying " this will destroy the service "
They cant make there mind up FFS

Most know 30k would never be let go because the Unions would end up fighting each other over who to let go.

The public are now realising what this unpaid leave means. More cuts on top of already planned cuts to services.

baaaa

freewheeler wrote: »

I just find it a bit rich that suddenly the unions and the public service are suddenly public enemy #1 and i reiterate..they are not the cause of this mess!

We can't pay our bills.The public sector bill is too high.We need to reduce it and the PS won't let us.
Whoever won't let us get our spending under control-it's currenty their fault.

freewheeler

yes they are well paid..maybe too well paid..but i dont blame them for fighting to keep what they have if i were them i'd do the same..let's get rid of about 50% of our (mostly useless) TD's everyone knows we have too many..cut THEIR expenses..make all the millionaires pay more..why should working class people always be screwed? Oh i forgot they cant buy TD's like some can...

oscarBravo

freewheeler wrote: »

...make all the millionaires pay more...

How much will each millionaire have to pay to make up a shortfall of €2,000,000,000 per month? And what do you do when they up sticks and leave?

atomicent

gerry28 wrote: »

I don't think Cowan is foolish enough to try and make such a mockery of the unions.

We pay our subscription for them to represent us. If cowan thinks he can take a blatant hand at them on this then he is taking a blatant hand at the union members.

For some reason when the pension levy was introduced people accepted it and moved on.

I get the feeling that this budget will be massively different.

Everyone at work is talking about the budget and are waiting and paying close attention to what will happen next tue.

Cowan could run the risk of losing thousands and thousands of votes for a very long time if they are deemed to be too harsh on the 9th.

Cowen has got the hardest job in the country at the moment, I dont think anyone would want to be in his shoes. People in the public sector are being made redndant left right and centre, surely those in the public sector who are guaranteed their jobs would be happy to take a paycut to try and get the country rolling again.
Things were too good before, and people got ahead of themselves, the banks are to blame more so than fianna fail for firing money at people, fine gael or any other party would have done the same if they were in power at the time, difference is they werent, and they arent now either, fianna fail will get us out, but people are going to have to make sacrifices, and to be honest, the public sector getting their 20+ holidays and being intitled to a further god knows how many days sick leave with pay is rediculous. we have the most public servants per capita in europe, and probably in europe, its about time the government called theyre bluff because their is no need for half of them.
A perfect example is below from personal experience:

I recently had to go to tax my car in the tax office, their are 6 or 7 booths in the county council office, and each booth had a person behind it with not a sinner to be seen in the tax office, this time one year ago if you were to go to tax your car there would be a queue out the door with maybe two people behind the counters, what does this say??
exactly!!
so I say, the boom was here, the boom is gone, it will never be what it was, so why have so many public servants? our poulation is only 4.5 million, Manchester is bigger, we have a country full of councillors seanad members and dail members and why?
Crane drivers in england are earning about 8-9 pounds sterling an hour, and in ireland the same driver(union member is looking for and the employer is obliged to pay€18.50 per hour?? this is one example of many in our jumped up over payed construction industry which is hanging by a thread.
please tell me if I'm wrong but its time the current government done something as unions have held the counrty to randsom for long enough.

ardmacha

we have the most public servants per capita in europe,

This is not true, please do not post untruths.

Manchester is bigger,

Also untrue.

Rev. BlueJeans

I'm no fan of either, but Reagan and Thatcher broke the unions in the dark days of eighties, and perhaps it's time to do so again.

Bertie was hailed as a master negotiator in the years of the "boom". Easy to negotiate when your answer to everything is a resounding yes.

Martin252

Any one that thinks them trade unions are looking out for the ordinary 5/8 s persons is totally mad. Its like they are trying to run the country now and not the other clowns, there has to be pay cuts in the public sector if there is not we,re sunk. Did anyone ever wonder the salary the head trade unions men are on. A lot lot more then the average wage, are them dickheads taking a cut don,t think so.. :mad:

Hootanany

Absurdum wrote: »

Cowen couldn't crush a paper cup.

He could if he sat on them one by one

jhegarty

seangal wrote: »

in production ect
IBEC put the cost at 400 million due to people not at work and the cost of all the cancellation ect

I don't understand.

Who are was not at work who produced anything ?

netmann

freewheeler wrote: »

yes they are well paid..maybe too well paid..but i dont blame them for fighting to keep what they have if i were them i'd do the same..let's get rid of about 50% of our (mostly useless) TD's everyone knows we have too many..cut THEIR expenses..make all the millionaires pay more..why should working class people always be screwed? Oh i forgot they cant buy TD's like some can...

Agree with some of this. Get rid of some of the many useless TDs and their expenses but also get rid of some of the ridulous allowances in the rest of the PS. The Government could come up with a fair way in how they split the 1.3 Billion pay cuts by taking more from the higher paid public sector workers. Example take most from those earning 100K and more, those earning between 50K and 100K pay slightly less and those between 30K and 50K less again without touching those on lower wages, say 30K and less. Not sure if trying to make millionaires pay more would work, generally speaking these are the people who have the talents to up ship and move overseas where they would pay little or no tax. They generally employ crafty accountants who use all available loopholes to avoid paying tax but these are probably the same people who we're going to depend on to create the jobs to get us out of this mess and we also need to encourage foreign direct investment. Would taxing the weathly any more than we do already encourage any of this?

jmayo

gerry28 wrote: »

I don't think Cowan is foolish enough to try and make such a mockery of the unions.

Cowan could run the risk of losing thousands and thousands of votes for a very long time if they are deemed to be too harsh on the 9th.

Ah so usual ff thinking give in to get votes.
Party first, country second ehhh ?
This is the first of at least 3 massive painful budgets.

Get used to it, we all have to be screwed now because half of us voted for the incompetent numpties that helped get us here.

Stark wrote: »

He'll have gained my vote though. And I have never voted for FF in my life.

Don't say that. :mad:
He is just doing his job and trying to rectify the mess HE CREATED.
He deserves no praise for now supposedly trying to do the right thing.

Note I said trying supposedly

Dickerty wrote: »

IBEC are full of poo.
...

That I will agree with.
In case anyone doesn't really know it, the biggest contributors and thus the ones that pull the strings of IBEC are as follows:
AIB, BOI, IL&P, Anglo, etc etc.
Now who are responsible for the banking fiasco again, please remind me ?

IBEC do not represent most small businesses, self employed, etc just like the unions do not represent non unionsed workers, and there are a fair you in the country.

freewheeler wrote: »

We all know that FF bought the last couple of elections..but that doesn't take from the fact that although yes we have a well paid public service at least they work for what they've got..look at the money that has been squandered and stolen by the government!! I just find it a bit rich that suddenly the unions and the public service are suddenly public enemy #1 and i reiterate..they are not the cause of this mess!

Ehhh money squandered by the government sand none squandered by public servants.
Yes lets see.
PPARS - who was it running it again, who were the ones managing it HSE employees ?
NRA road procurement - who is that works in this quango ?
CB/ IFSRA - who exactly works in the regulatory authorities ?
Fás - who works in Fás ?

Are not all the people working in the above organisations public service employees ???

LoLth

jhegarty wrote: »

I don't understand.

Who are was not at work who produced anything ?

working parents who could not arrange or afford child minders.

PS strike = schools closed = kids at home = guardian has to be there to mind them.

so workers in the private sector had to stay at home to mind their kids which means they weren't at work earning money for themselves and their employers and they werent producing goods to be sold.

any clearer now?

Hootanany

Not both parents surely PS produce nothing they make work for them self's Flexi Time pah

jhegarty

LoLth wrote: »

working parents who could not arrange or afford child minders.

PS strike = schools closed = kids at home = guardian has to be there to mind them.

so workers in the private sector had to stay at home to mind their kids which means they weren't at work earning money for themselves and their employers and they werent producing goods to be sold.

any clearer now?

But wouldn't that be taken from annual leave ?

who_ru

gerry28 wrote: »

Cowan could run the risk of losing thousands and thousands of votes for a very long time if they are deemed to be too harsh on the 9th.

of course you had no problem with it when they were too generous to you with benchmarking and the crazy pay awards that were made in return for no increase in productivity or delivery of services - when you were sticking it to the taxpayer everything was great but now when this country is all but bankrupt and being funded by the ECB you aggressively argue that the govt has no right to correct this country's finances. cut welfare of course and all other areas but not PS pay because you can't take any more pain.

cowan WILL lose a lot more votes if he doesn't do what is right for this country and the future of it's people on the 9th.