How do I know if plastering is wrong?

ninjaBob

The plastering is a week away from wrapping up on the site, and everything was going really well. The first floor was a pretty good job and I had high expectations for the rest of the house.

We are about half way through plastering the down stairs and there is not a single straight reveal, if you put a level to the kitchen wall you can fit your fingers between the gap and on one of the corridor walls there is a difference of 2inches from the bottom of the wall to the top. The ceilings are also noticbly off as are some of the lintels (curving down).

I have called the builder up on this to have him check the plasters work and he says everything is fine. He claims "I have narrow window frames making the reveals harder to do" (I have standard tilt and turn windows from a major supplier).


I called the engineers in and while he sees my point he is claiming this is common with plastering and you never get a perfectly straight walls.

Before I over react to this and insist all the reveals, ceilings and walls get redone/fixed. Is this common, I was expecting it to be uneven in parts but not to this degree. I certainly was not expecting the reveals to be this bad whatever about the walls.

And the plasterer has used bonding compound to try and bring it back to being more even. Thus leaving us with uneven walls / reveals.

Any ideas?

Gurgle

ninjaBob wrote: »

if you put a level to the kitchen wall you can fit your fingers between the gap and on one of the corridor walls there is a difference of 2inches from the bottom of the wall to the top. The ceilings are also noticbly off as are some of the lintels (curving down).

Thats a complete cock-up of a job. Plastering is difficult to get perfect, but a blind monkey could do better than what you describe.

ninjaBob

That's what I was thinking, but I am not certain how to approach this. As the engineers don't seem to care and believe that the Carpenter, Tiler and Painters can fix the problems.

The builder is of the same mind but it's in his interest to not have to redo the work, and the plasterer is standing over his work.

While I am not happy with the finish I don't want to have unrealistic expectations or be unfair if this is how plastering goes.

I have a meeting arranged for later on today to get all the trades people together. To establish if it's accepable or not by their standard.

But I wanted to know exactly how I can approach this without being unreasonable. I'm not happy with the finish but everyone else is giving some form of excuse.

Wonky Knees

Plasterers - the messiest individuals you could find. Anyway, you have to remember that the plasterer is following the work of the slabber and so on. Some of the issues could be the fault of others. Bonding is fine to try level things off as long as it is used with a little prudence. Is the architect happy? Does the painter have any problem since they are the ones who most complain about plasterers. Are you paying by the day or the job or by the meter squared? Any pictures?

ninjaBob

The plasterer in question is very neat and tidy, he cleaned up the first floor pretty well once complete.

The Carpenter, Tiler and Painter electrician are not happy with the end result. The kitchen wall is not even for the granite worktop to go against, the painter is annoyed with the whole job and the tiler reckons he'll need a truck load of adhesive. Electrician is worried that some of his sockets won't rest flush against the wall

I don't have any photos to hand to put up, but when I get home I'll see about resizing some images. When I was looking over them last night I believe it will be the slabbing that is causing this issue.

The whole job was handled by a recommended builder, the plasterer was brought on by the builder, the slabbing was handled by the builder and the builder also handled the block laying. So as far as I am concern it all lies squarely at his feet to resolve.

So far only 47 bags of skim coat were used but 24 bags of bonding compound were used. I expect that this is certainly an unhealthy ratio.

jetfiremuck

Believe me when I tell you. If it looks as bad as you say now then it will be a thousand times worse when the tilers, countertops, cabinets, electric, goes in and the cobbling to make it . Better get it sorted now no matter what.

firesidechat

Ninjabob . I feel for you.
Is this a timber frame build or is it all blockwork.
I cannot see how a plasterer could be so bad, have you checked the walls
for plumb?.
Where the window reveals are concerned,there is no reason they cannot be plastered correctly,no matter what size reveal they have to work with.
If there was block work they would have to apply sand and cement over blocks.Was tat put on evenly?

Wonky Knees

24 bags of bonding! Sorry man, there is a serious problem here and whatever way you look at it the job will be delayed. I'm now surprised at your engineer's initial reaction. You need to call him back and your architect and ask them to get to the bottom of it. If it is a question of the slabs then rip them out and get the guys to do the job properly. This is a huge headache and no doubt the kind of pressure you don't need. But if the tiler and kitchen people as well as the electrician have major problems, then as others have suggested, to continue could cost a lot in the end. Think about getting a second opinion from another engineer. There was a fXXX up on the groundworks of my job recently. I needed to join up pipes that were just covered in 4M of concrete (taken from the truck by hand in buckets). Instead of taking the short cut I dug up the patio over three day. It was heartbreaking but in the end to do the job right is always worth it.

mickdw

If you can see that the corner beading is off just by looking at it, well then its not good enough.
You can expect a long level not to sit perfectly on all walls at all locations however the wall must be plumb overall..... If you hold the level against the wall, any more than a few mm at any point would be wrong.

ninjaBob

All the reveals on the lower floor are slanted from the front to meet window. There are obvious curves/lumps/bumps up and down the reveals. As mentioned the lentils are cuving down in the middle and the larger door reveals appear as if they are buckling or something.

The carpenter measured up the kitchen wall to ensure that the units he has made would fit and has determined there is over 10mm of a gap in places. This sounds small to me but he reckons it will play havok getting the units to look right and would require a vertical piece of granite/tiling to hide the gaps between the countertop and wall.

Again 10mm sounded small to me, but I am afraid that this will cost me more in the long run and now that I am noticing these errors it's all I can see.

My builder and plasterer are saying I am being fussy and that it's a non issue. He is blaming the issue with the reveals on the fact that the frames are narrow, I have confirmed that they are 75mm in width.

We have a standard gypsum slab outlining the reveals. So that's 13mm, plus 5mm of insulation, add bonding compound and skim and we are looking at around 30 - 35mm or so is my highly un-educated guess.

So I think it's a bull**** excuse, a flat slab, placed onto a flat wall should give the plasterer a relatively flat surface to skim onto.

Will know what the engineers views are in the morning, and we can proceed from there.


Edit:

Would you mind defining what you mean by "plumb" if I understand how to look for these things I stand a far better chance of explaining my case.

cork1

just out of curiosity it would be interesting to chisel out a piece of plaster on one of the reaveals and see exactly what thickness of plaster there is. there is only supposed to be a few mm but in my experience when i go doing second fix carpentry and have to burst of pieces of the plaster ive seen patch on walls an inch thick. if i were you id have lost the head when i saw that job and id be having serious words with the engineer if he thinks its ok. maybe you need a second opinion!

mickdw

Plumb - vertical!

It sounds like they have sloped the the reveals towards the window frame which is the lazy way out and will look a bit like an old house 'done up' in my opinion. Are your windows too small for the blockwork opening? because really, that type of slope shouldnt be needed.
You say the beading on some of the window heads is sagging.... Get this removed and redone. This is certainly not good enough.
In relation to the gaps along work top etc, anything more than what can be covered by a tile is pretty bad tbh. A plasterer will usually pull a long straight edge on the walls when doing the sand cement to get it fairly flat. Sometimes it can be hard to get a flat surface if the blockwork was very poor and Ive seen houses where 50mm wider door frames had to be used in places as walls were so poorly lined through. That type of work should be condemned tbh.
In general, if you can pick out obvious faults and you are not in the building trade, I would think that there are many many faults. If your engineer is saying that a sagging window head reveal is 'fine' then I think you should send him off along with the builder

ninjaBob

Thanks for the advice, had the meeting on Friday, brought in all the trades, another engineer and architect.

Some walls were found to not be plumb
ALL Reveals were found to be wrong (as pointed out by mickdw sloped back to the window, lazy way out).

Kitchen Wall has a dip in the center of 14mm, where the worktop runs along.
Some ceilings were found to be off


The builder and plasterer have since walked. Cheers for the advice it helped me point out exactly what were the issues without sounding like a mug.

ninjaBob

Have a new plasterer coming in on thursday, I was just wondering how repairing reveals works.

If they were to cut out the skimbead (and other affected areas), rebead and then skim again. I was wondering if we run the risks of cracking or any long term risks?

As we would have dried skim meeting the new wet skim, should I have any concerns?

mickdw

Good result, at least you got to the bottom of it now. I hope the builder wasnt paid up to date cause this is going to cost money to put right.
Breaking out reveals and putting in newly is a messy job. Also from what you have said, the whole wall surface leading up to the window area might be well out of plumb. These walls might need to be completely replastered.
You also cannot blend in skim with a previousy finished section of skim, its just not fine enough. It can be blended out with a fine filler but I wouldnt fancy alot of this kind of repair in a new house.
What became of your 'Engineer' who was happy to let all this go? Was he on the take?

ninjaBob

No they had only seen the upstairs, when I was in contact with them (They were out onsite the friday, the plastering was done over the weekend and the issues spotted on the wednesday) . So they approved the upstairs (as did I), but as it looks now the downstairs was a rush job and during the site meeting they certainly didn't approve of the downstairs work and pointed out most of what I missed, making it clear to the builder and plasterer what needed to be done.

This probably had the plasterer and builder pack up, just need to find someone capable to wrap things up.