Marraige and kids as a non believer

krudler

Was talking about this with the missus (well girlfriend, but could be future missus ) now I'd be a non-believer, or at the least a big questioner of all things religious, do i really believe in God? no, she does though ,but in the typical way most supposed catholics do where its been so ingrained into them from birth that its for fear of disappointing parents/whoever. She'd believe the Jesus stuff, but all the really crazy things like Adam being 900 years old and a talking snake in the garden of Eden she'd assume are nonsense, (so your average Irish Catholic then:D )

We were talking about marraige and kids, both will involve religion of some sort, especially the wedding should it ever occur as its a relgious ceremony at the heart of it, she'd want a normal church wedding, which i'd be happy enough to go along with for an easy life, but with kids, I'd like to make a bit more of a stand, if it were up to me I wouldnt get them baptised because the idea that a child is born into a life of sin unless a priest splashes water on their head in a symbolic gesture is a repellant notion to me, but she'd be of the catholic notion that if anything ever happened the kid while not baptised then they'd wind up in hell/purgatory, wherever. Have any athiests/agnostics encountered this with their other halves?

Panrich

Not with my wife, but with the rest of my family. I was set on not having my son baptised but I met so much opposition that I relented. My reasoning was that it was not like it mattered in any real way to go along with the flow. Both my wife and I were raised as catholic and we found our way to reject it for what it was. It sounds like a cop-out but I really feel my atheism is a personal thing and I didn't want my son to have a harder early part of his life defending himself for being 'different' because of my ego.

Comer1

Panrich wrote: »

It sounds like a cop-out but I really feel my atheism is a personal thing and I didn't want my son to have a harder early part of his life defending himself for being 'different' because of my ego.

+1

Ickle Magoo

Like everything in a relationship when you are approaching from polar opposites, there is going to have to be discussion and compromise.

It's a toughy because I couldn't be a sheep just to facilitate the way things are done in this country - wrongly imo - but equally I'd have no right to demand our wedding or our children are celebrated/raised on my terms only.

My atheism is more than just my ego - I feel as passionately and proud of it as a devout theist feels about their religion, it's not something I could or would want to sweep under the carpet. I don't think I could look the other way while my child is taught as fact a subject I don't think is true, let alone signed up as a member of an organised religion I have so little respect for.

I guess it all comes down to how strongly you feel about the position you hold and how much you are willing to compromise that...

midlandsmissus

It's interesting though - all you guys were raised catholic, rebelled and became atheist. I was brought up atheist, rebelled and became Christian.

I think when you're brought up with a belief forced on you you're going to rebel and turn away from it, and similiarly when you're brought up with nothing, you're going to rebel and seek out something.

Just something to think about when you think about raising your child as an atheist.

My atheist parents were very one-sided with me, telling me the notion of god was ridiculous etc etc, and everyone else was stupid. I really don't think that that is the right thing to do with a child.
What I plan to do myself is to tell them that I looked at atheism and every religion, and found out what feels right for me is Christianity. I will tell them that it's up to them what they want to believe, they can believe whatever they want.

I won't christen them as 1) I don't believe you should make children's decisions for them 2) I wasn't christened myself, and it's done me no harm 3) The main man of the religion they're being christened into was baptised as an adult, so it really makes no sense to be baptised as a baby. they can choose to do it as an adult if the want.

krudler

My atheist parents were very one-sided with me, telling me the notion of god was ridiculous etc etc, and everyone else was stupid. I really don't think that that is the right thing to do with a child.
What I plan to do myself is to tell them that I looked at atheism and every religion, and found out what feels right for me is Christianity. I will tell them that it's up to them what they want to believe, they can believe whatever they want.

I won't christen them as 1) I don't believe you should make children's decisions for them 2) I wasn't christened myself, and it's done me no harm 3) The main man of the religion they're being christened into was baptised as an adult, so it really makes no sense to be baptised as a baby. they can choose to do it as an adult if the want.

If only more people had this line of thinking...

Ickle Magoo

midlandsmissus wrote: »

It's interesting though - all you guys were raised catholic, rebelled and became atheist.

Eh, that's a bit of an assumption.

I wasn't raised Catholic - I had never been to mass until I went with my MIL! My mum is CoS & my Dad agnostic, I was not Christened/Baptised because my parents feel faith (or lack of) is an intensely personal thing. I was sent to Sunday School for as long as I wanted to go & until I could come up with a well thought out reason why I shouldn't. I've never believed in a God and I could never fathom religion, that hasn't changed - no rebellion necessary. I've never been anything other than an atheist.

midlandsmissus

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Eh, that's a bit of an assumption.

I wasn't raised Catholic - I had never been to mass until I went with my MIL! My mum is CoS & my Dad agnostic, I was not Christened/Baptised because my parents feel faith (or lack of) is an intensely personal thing. I was sent to Sunday School for as long as I wanted to go & until I could come up with a well thought out reason why I shouldn't. I've never believed in a God and I could never fathom religion, that hasn't changed - no rebellion necessary. I've never been anything other than an atheist.

Excuse me I should have said the majority, not everyone on here. And for those that it does apply to I should have said 'raised in some religion', not just Catholic. Thanks.

fitz0

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

My mum is CoS & my Dad agnostic

I'm having trouble thinking of anything other than Church of Scientology for CoS.

robindch

midlandsmissus wrote: »

It's interesting though - all you guys were raised catholic, rebelled and became atheist. I was brought up atheist, rebelled and became Christian.

Rebel? I didn't "rebel".

On the contrary, I just learned enough about religion to be able to figure out how it works.

Dades

midlandsmissus wrote: »

all you guys were raised catholic, rebelled and became atheist.

Eh, no.

midlandsmissus

Dades wrote: »

Eh, no.

Dades I was referring to those who had so far posted on this thread before me, I don't believe you were one. And I have corrected myself.

Ickle Magoo

fitz0 wrote: »

I'm having trouble thinking of anything other than Church of Scientology for CoS.

If CoI = Church of Ireland & you have a lookee at my avi <

---

Any clearer?! :P

Gregor Samsa

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I think when you're brought up with a belief forced on you you're going to rebel and turn away from it, and similiarly when you're brought up with nothing, you're going to rebel and seek out something.

Just something to think about when you think about raising your child as an atheist.

Your experience is indeed interesting, although though lots of people are brought up with beliefs (forced on them or otherwise) and don't rebel or turn away form them. Take the OP's girlfriend for instance.

Also, I'd disagree with the notion that atheism is "nothing", and therefore "something" needs to be sought out. Maybe your parents were hardcore nihilists or something, but I'd say most atheists have robust beliefs and options on all the big issues you care to think of, but they just happen not to involve a supernatural entity.

I'll be bringing my daughter up as an atheist, simply because to bring her up as anything else (including agnostic) would be absurd, given my own beliefs (and those of my partner). I'll teach her about what other people believe in, in the same way I'll teach her about what the ancient Celts, Greeks and Egyptians believed in, but I couldn't in any good conscience tell her that there is any factual validity to their religious beliefs, because I simply don't believe there are.

If she chooses to go with a religion at a later stage in her life, that'll be her choice and I'd fully respect that - but she better be prepared for some robust discussions

LaLucy

This is interesting. I am expecting and myself and my partner are wondering what to do about religion. We were both brought up catholic but have lost faith as we have got older. Now I don't really believe anything. However I don't want my child to think that there's nothing to have faith in so I'm really trying to think of ways to teach morals without the putting the fear of hell into it!

robindch

LaLucy wrote: »

Now I don't really believe anything.

Not true, I hope! Would it be closer to say that you've just stopped believing what religious people say about themselves, their beliefs and other people?

LaLucy wrote: »

However I don't want my child to think that there's nothing to have faith in so I'm really trying to think of ways to teach morals without the putting the fear of hell into it!

"morals" are really just another facet of most religions. They're an authoritarian, top-down system of unarguable and unchangeable rules that encourages an unhealthy and blind trust in authority. They certainly don't encourage kids to think about what's going on, or to develop through discussion their own bottom-up sense of right and wrong.

Here's one good book which discusses the differences between authoritarian and liberal systems of education:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/War-Childrens-Minds-Stephen-Law/dp/0415378559

The basic argument is that kids should be taught to think critically about issues, and to discuss things openly in an atmosphere that's free from authoritarian pressure. You don't tend to get that in a religious environment.

Daroxtar

krudler wrote: »

We were talking about marraige and kids, both will involve religion of some sort, especially the wedding should it ever occur as its a relgious ceremony at the heart of it, she'd want a normal church wedding, which i'd be happy enough to go along with for an easy life, but with kids, I'd like to make a bit more of a stand, if it were up to me I wouldnt get them baptised because the idea that a child is born into a life of sin unless a priest splashes water on their head in a symbolic gesture is a repellant notion to me, but she'd be of the catholic notion that if anything ever happened the kid while not baptised then they'd wind up in hell/purgatory, wherever. Have any athiests/agnostics encountered this with their other halves?

Well I'm a born catholic/now Agnostic and consider the bible nothing more than iron age fairytales. Its a good read, pretty much along the lines of The Silmarillion as far as i'm concerned. However, i gave my word to the church in exchange for the privilage of using their facilities. I had my daughter baptised and she'll get her confessions, communion and confirmation too.
If you want to play in someones house you have to play the game they play. Saying you want a church wedding but dont want to baptise your kids is fairly hypocritical. Raising your kids as catholic is part of the deal if you're getting married in a catholic church.You'll get all the rules and regulations when you do your pre wedding course (A mandatory requirement for a RC church wedding). They dont force you to become a catholic if you're not one, they just ask for your word that you'll teach your kids their stories. So, are you a man of your word?, Thats the question.

My OH has a stronger set of beliefs than me but she fully understands my thinking. My brother decided to take a stand and not get his son baptised. That decision caused a whole ball of trouble and heartbreak with the parents and tbh was not worth it. Its still a touchy subject with them. To make life easier with all the families we just go with the flow. Sure what harm is it? The kids will make up their own minds as adults anyway, in the mean time i chose to follow the path of least resistance and cause the least hurt to the people i love.

As someone else alluded to there's no need for your kids to feel left out or different just because you dont believe. TBH, communion and confirmation are big happy childhood memories for most so why not give your kids those memories?

Anyway, good luck with your decisions:)

LaLucy

Well saying that I don't believe anything sounds sad doesn't it! I just don't believe the things I did as a kid. I thought there was a man in the sky, and that Jerusalam was a magical place that didn't exist. The way I picked everything up was sort of like fairytale and I remember feeling holy inside especially at church. The thing I love about some churches is everyone singing together and a band playing but I know my child could experience that as part of a class or after school activities. When I said about morals I mean don't kill other people! I know that my child wouldn't be thinking of that but when they learn things like that I don't know what to fill in for the 'don't do this because god is watching'. I believe in the universe and something higher than us I just don't know what it is. I believe in the earth and think the earth has a spirit. We are all made from elements of the earth and I believe we all have spirits. Now I don't know if that means something that exists after death but just the emotions people feel and the atmosphere people create, it's wonderful!
Have I just gone off the subject?:)

krudler

LaLucy wrote: »

Well saying that I don't believe anything sounds sad doesn't it! I just don't believe the things I did as a kid. I thought there was a man in the sky, and that Jerusalam was a magical place that didn't exist. The way I picked everything up was sort of like fairytale and I remember feeling holy inside especially at church. The thing I love about some churches is everyone singing together and a band playing but I know my child could experience that as part of a class or after school activities. When I said about morals I mean don't kill other people! I know that my child wouldn't be thinking of that but when they learn things like that I don't know what to fill in for the 'don't do this because god is watching'. I believe in the universe and something higher than us I just don't know what it is. I believe in the earth and think the earth has a spirit. We are all made from elements of the earth and I believe we all have spirits. Now I don't know if that means something that exists after death but just the emotions people feel and the atmosphere people create, it's wonderful!
Have I just gone off the subject?:)

Theres a good analogy in the documentary Religulous, where Bill Maher asks someone if they werent told the difference between the stories in the bible and the fairy tales we hear as kids, would you know the difference? because thats all the bible is really, a collection of moral tales and allegorys

But back to the point, yeah the getting married thing is a bit hypocritical, but i wouldnt deny someone a church wedding to get married in an office, yeah the end result is the same but it'd be more about a special day for her than me. The kids thing is a thorny (excuse the religious pun) subject though, would i want them excluded from school and such, no, but at the same time I'd like them to not have to go through all the brainwashing thats involved in a catholic school upbringing only for them to start questioning everything later like i did myself, but i wouldnt deny them having faith either,oh this is going to get ugly in later years:D

Daroxtar

krudler wrote: »

Theres a good analogy in the documentary Religulous, where Bill Maher asks someone if they werent told the difference between the stories in the bible and the fairy tales we hear as kids, would you know the difference? because thats all the bible is really, a collection of moral tales and allegorys

But back to the point, yeah the getting married thing is a bit hypocritical, but i wouldnt deny someone a church wedding to get married in an office, yeah the end result is the same but it'd be more about a special day for her than me. The kids thing is a thorny (excuse the religious pun) subject though, would i want them excluded from school and such, no, but at the same time I'd like them to not have to go through all the brainwashing thats involved in a catholic school upbringing only for them to start questioning everything later like i did myself, but i wouldnt deny them having faith either,oh this is going to get ugly in later years:D

Ah, the questioning thing is a fabulous mind expansion experience in the long run if you ask me. All part of defining what makes you as a person. I dont think kids get religion beaten into them anymore, they just get told about what faith is, from a somewhat biased viewpoint ( but thats most things in life really isnt it? )

Ickle Magoo

Daroxtar wrote: »

As someone else alluded to there's no need for your kids to feel left out or different just because you dont believe. TBH, communion and confirmation are big happy childhood memories for most so why not give your kids those memories?

Plenty of happy memories had by non-Catholics too!! I don't think religion should be viewed like a fashion - surely it shouldn't be given like the latest trend so your kid doesn't feel left out? There should be some kind of spiritual significance behind it?!

I'd prefer to teach my kids to be proud of the differences & not just following the herd for the sake of it. Mind you, they are at a school where the majority of other kids won't have confirmations and those and do will have their instructions out-with school hours, so maybe the whole "left out" thing is a bit of a non-issue.

Dades

Daroxtar wrote: »

However, i gave my word to the church in exchange for the privilage of using their facilities. I had my daughter baptised and she'll get her confessions, communion and confirmation too. If you want to play in someones house you have to play the game they play. Saying you want a church wedding but dont want to baptise your kids is fairly hypocritical.

On one hand you say if you choose to do the church thing with your kids you owe it to them to follow through on 'commitments'...

My brother decided to take a stand and not get his son baptised. That decision caused a whole ball of trouble and heartbreak with the parents and tbh was not worth it. Its still a touchy subject with them. To make life easier with all the families we just go with the flow. Sure what harm is it? The kids will make up their own minds as adults anyway, in the mean time i chose to follow the path of least resistance and cause the least hurt to the people i love.

... yet on the other hand you admit that doing the church thing is the best option to save heartbreak and family disappointment.

I don't see it reasonable that non-believer to have to raise their child catholic for doing something they didn't want to do, to avoid upsetting other people.

Not to mention, how you can advocate a responsibility to keep a promise to the catholic church, after what we have learned about them in recent years. The idea of being held to a promise to them is laughable. That's one organisation I don't have an issue quietly relinquishing my ties with.

robindch

LaLucy wrote: »

I believe in the universe and something higher than us I just don't know what it is.

Almost everybody does. Just some people turn this reasonable belief into a completely separate one that there's this bearded guy in the sky with a bad case of bi-polar disorder who's making people feel this!

LaLucy wrote: »

just the emotions people feel and the atmosphere people create, it's wonderful!

Yep, that's what evolution has designed us to feel -- we're an intensely social species and almost all of us get a huge kick out of doing things together.

I reckon the best thing to teach your kid is how to contribute -- making things, telling stories, painting pictures, cooking, being nice, and above all, learning how to help people.

Daroxtar

Dades wrote: »

On one hand you say if you choose to do the church thing with your kids you owe it to them to follow through on 'commitments'...

... yet on the other hand you admit that doing the church thing is the best option to save heartbreak and family disappointment.

I don't see it reasonable that non-believer to have to raise their child catholic for doing something they didn't want to do, to avoid upsetting other people.

Not to mention, how you can advocate a responsibility to keep a promise to the catholic church, after what we have learned about them in recent years. The idea of being held to a promise to them is laughable. That's one organisation I don't have an issue quietly relinquishing my ties with.

Their house, their rules. Its just showing respect for others. You dont like it then you go elsewhere.
The OPs other half is catholic and her family would be upset if the kids were not baptised. Your attitude towards this comes across pretty much as "fuk them and their feelings" which is arrogant and selfish in my opinion. Irrespective of your faith or your dislike of other peoples faith a bit of understanding of others perspectives usually helps make life easier for all involved.
In regards to keeping my side of the bargain well thats just me being honourable to my word, whether they are or not.

Dades

Daroxtar wrote: »

Their house, their rules. Its just showing respect for others. You dont like it then you go elsewhere.
The OPs other half is catholic and her family would be upset if the kids were not baptised. Your attitude towards this comes across pretty much as "fuk them and their feelings" which is arrogant and selfish in my opinion. Irrespective of your faith or your dislike of other peoples faith a bit of understanding of others perspectives usually helps make life easier for all involved.
In regards to keeping my side of the bargain well thats just me being honourable to my word, whether they are or not.

Congratulations on missing the entire point of my post.

FYI, I was married in a church, and had my daughter baptised to appease my wife and family - so it was more a case of "fuk me and my feelings"...

My POINT, had you caught it, was that as

(1) non-believers doing the church things is a self-effacing act intended to appease other people, and
(2) the catholic church is a contemptible organisation ...

WHY would one feel they needed to follow through on the sham or raising your kids catholic? "Their house their rules" is somewhat lacking as incitement to lie to your kids for 12 years.

liamw

midlandsmissus wrote: »

and found out what feels right for me is Christianity.

If you choose to believe something because it 'feels right', rather than what's actually true, don't expect people to show you any respect for those beliefs.

Goduznt Xzst

Daroxtar wrote: »

If you want to play in someones house you have to play the game they play.

If your child was born black would you paint them white to fit in with a largely Caucasian population?

Seriously this kind of reasoning baffles me. You would never paint the skin of your child to conform but you have no problem with painting their minds with Religious traditions and teaching to conform.

You don't think it's damaging your child? Well just look at your own levels of apathy and acquiescence to this injustice, you've now propagated this onto the next generation. Your children will have to experience the same fear and guilt regarding how equal their child will be treated and stomach the string of lies they'll have to tell to acquiesce... or maybe you'll luck out and your child won't have to endure this, they'll simply have become a fully fledged practicing Catholic.

Daroxtar

Fair enough. You also seem to have missed the start of my post. You dont want to follow their rules then you dont get married in their building. Simple. Try geting married in a Mosque or Synagogue. See what they tell you.

I never said anything about lying to my kids. If they ask me my beliefs i'll tell them. I'll also tell them what i know about the other beliefs too. Then they can figure out for themselves what they want to do. Answer me this- will Santa Claus be calling to Dades house? Will you have issues with lying to them about that?

Where i live the vast majority of peole are catholic, the schools are catholic and my family are catholic. I'm not going to stop my kids taking part in the activities that virtually everyone else will be taking part in.

Why would one feel the need to follow through on raising their kids as catholic to appease others? The answer is in the question but for clarity i'll spell it out- less hassle. I couldn't be fukd dealing with whingeing inlaws and grandparents so let them have their few days out and take their pictures and whatever else that goes with it. I don't hear the grief, i get to have a smiley face.

Dades

Daroxtar wrote:

Why would one feel the need to follow through on raising their kids as catholic to appease others? The answer is in the question but for clarity i'll spell it out- less hassle. I couldn't be fukd dealing with whingeing inlaws and grandparents so let them have their few days out and take their pictures and whatever else that goes with it. I don't hear the grief, i get to have a smiley face.

At least here you've answered my original question.

Let's call a spade a spade here - raise your kids as catholics if you don't want any further hassle from relatives - but don't say it's because you made a promise to a church you don't even believe in.

I'm not judging you btw - I may end of doing the same myself - just questioning your motives as stated in your first post.

Daroxtar

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

If your child was born black would you paint them white to fit in with a largely Caucasian population?

Seriously this kind of reasoning baffles me. You would never paint the skin of your child to conform but you have no problem with painting their minds with Religious traditions and teaching to conform.

You don't think it's damaging your child? Well just look at your own levels of apathy and acquiescence to this injustice, you've now propagated this onto the next generation. Your children will have to experience the same fear and guilt regarding how equal their child will be treated and stomach the string of lies they'll have to tell to acquiesce... or maybe you'll luck out and your child won't have to endure this, they'll simply have become a fully fledged practicing Catholic.

If my child was born black then that would be because either my wife or i or both would be black. If neither of us were black then there may be other questions to answer in either PI or some genetics forum. My wife is Catholic. End of.

I fail to see how my percieved apathy or acquiescence has damaged me. I'm actually a very well rounded individual with an open mind. TBH the judgemental comments from yourself seem to come from a far less understanding and bitter viewpoint. I have been able to draw my own conclusions while understanding other peoples perspectives whereas you seem to have taken a very close minded approach to ideas that differ from your own. Now thats very similar to the intollerance shown by ultra religious types. Ironic...

Rb

If I were with someone who wanted to raise my kids with religion in their lives and the notion of the scary sky fairy looking down on them and into their thoughts, I'd leave them. Simple as that really.

I want my kids to grow up with an appreciation of science and the beauty of nature, not crediting it to some non-existent entity that people made up due to the complete and utter lack of understanding of the world around them. I would also never label my kids according to how I perceive society to want me to.

robindch

Daroxtar wrote: »

If my child was born black then that would be because either my wife or i or both would be black.

Not quite true. But that's another thread.

Daroxtar wrote: »

I fail to see how my percieved apathy or acquiescence has damaged me.

You're allowing your respect for house rules to permit other people to make decisions for your child that properly belong to you. And there's nothing strange about that since religious people tend to be pretty good at this. It's one of the ways in which religion most successfully propagates.

As you seem happy with this situation, then as long as you can rationalize this acquiescence to yourself, together with the implicit less-than-honesty to your kid, then I think your position is probably justified.

However people in this forum usually take a firmer line and wouldn't let religious people do this. I certainly would not let it happen to me for a whole host of reasons, only some of which are related to religion, the rest being related to family politics.

Horses for courses really.

Daroxtar

robindch wrote: »

Not quite true. But that's another thread.You're allowing your respect for house rules to permit other people to make decisions for your child that properly belong to you. And there's nothing strange about that since religious people tend to be pretty good at this. It's one of the ways in which religion most successfully propagates.

As you seem happy with this situation, then as long as you can rationalize this acquiescence to yourself, together with the implicit less-than-honesty to your kid, then I think your position is probably justified.

However people in this forum usually take a firmer line and wouldn't let religious people do this. I certainly would not let it happen to me for a whole host of reasons, only some of which are related to religion, the rest being related to family politics.

Horses for courses really.

Re. the less than honesty, as i've already said earlier, what about santa claus? Thats a lie too but most parents dont seem too bothered telling that one. There's a magic guy who lives in a magic place thats on top of the world and if you behave and do as he says then you'll get nice stuff off him. Same story there as god. Some kids are smart enough to figure it out for themselves, others are shocked and stunned when they are told the truth. The only difference is that we are absolutely certain that Santa exists, i think;)

Kids learn more from their parents than anywhere else. If i'm not too bothered by the church then my kids will pick that up from me. If i force a viewpoint on them then they'll either accept it or as is often the case reject it wholesale. As i said i'll let them make up their own minds and be happy with whatever the decide on, unless they become Emo's:)

Goduznt Xzst

robindch has fielded part of your post already which I agree with so I won't respond to to it

Daroxtar wrote: »

My wife is Catholic. End of.

You are not getting my point. The religion or race of your wife does not impact on the fact you are attempting to alter the perception of your child by others to make him/her more appealing to them and more likely to form a friendship with.

You wouldn't paint your child white if all the children in the school where white would you? Why paint them as a Catholic then?

Also, I think this paranoia over children ostracizing children of differing Religions is largely nonexistent. You'd have to of been going to school in the 60's and 70's for kids to care what Religion kids where. Kids these days don't discriminate because of race or religion and even if they did, are these the kind of kids you want yours taking an example from?

Anyway, I'm kinda getting the feeling from your posts that this isn't only about towing the Church line to secure your child with matriculation. Does your wife want your child to be raised a Catholic? I've a feeling this is the largest motivating factor here.

Daroxtar wrote: »

whereas you seem to have taken a very close minded approach to ideas that differ from your own. Now thats very similar to the intollerance shown by ultra religious types. Ironic...

Dades loves this smiley but :rolleyes:... Calling someone "close minded" because they have an opinion that is a polar opposite to yours is a religious tactic, don't stoop to that level. You may also revise your understanding of what being "open minded" actually means.

Daroxtar

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

robindch has fielded part of your post already which I agree with so I won't respond to to it



You are not getting my point. The religion or race of your wife does not impact on the fact you are attempting to alter the perception of your child by others to make him/her more appealing to them and more likely to form a friendship with.

You wouldn't paint your child white if all the children in the school where white would you? Why paint them as a Catholic then?

Also, I think this paranoia over children ostracizing children of differing Religions is largely nonexistent. You'd have to of been going to school in the 60's and 70's for kids to care what Religion kids where. Kids these days don't discriminate because of race or religion and even if they did, are these the kind of kids you want yours taking an example from?

Anyway, I'm kinda getting the feeling from your posts that this isn't only about towing the Church line to secure your child with matriculation. Does your wife want your child to be raised a Catholic? I've a feeling this is the largest motivating factor here.



Dades loves this smiley but :rolleyes:... Calling someone "close minded" because they have an opinion that is a polar opposite to yours is a religious tactic, don't stoop to that level. You may also revise your understanding of what being "open minded" actually means.

Firstly as an Agnostic i believe that there is neither sufficient proof of gods existence nor of non existence. Nobody knows for sure one way or another. Thats not quite polar opposite to your view that he doesn't exist. Maybe the revision of definitions is something you should take up yourself.

Secondly you talk about the fear and guilt my kids will also have to go through. Where in fuk are you getting that from? Thats purely presumptious on your behalf. Trust me, no fear or guilt or any self loathing going on here mate.

Thirdly Re. open mindedness- going by you username one would assume you have a fairly closed mindset about faith and religion in general.

You presume, i assume...i know,i know, more ironic than a big iron tank full of iron ore , but hey....:rolleyes:

Finally, people seems to be conveniently dodging my question so i'll repeat it again and wait for an answer-
Will Santa Claus be calling to your kids and will you have issues about telling them that lie?

Mark Hamill

Daroxtar wrote: »

Finally, people seems to be conveniently dodging my question so i'll repeat it again and wait for an answer-
Will Santa Claus be calling to your kids and will you have issues about telling them that lie?

You are using the excuse that other people lie to their kids in order to justify lying to your own kids? Great parenting there.

Daroxtar

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You are using the excuse that other people lie to their kids in order to justify lying to your own kids? Great parenting there.

No, i'm asking what other people will do.

robindch

Daroxtar wrote: »

Re. the less than honesty, as i've already said earlier, what about santa claus?

My kid will be getting Santa pressies because Santa is a completely benign piece of tomfoolery.

There are no men in dark clothes telling her she'll burn in hell if she doesn't believe that Santa's there. Neither are there family members out there who might choose to spend christmas glowering at me over the dinner table because I mentioned to my kid that Santa not there. Also, she gets a real gift, rather than a make-believe one. Finally, Santa makes kids feel happy. Jesus makes people feel guilty.

But as I said above, the religious side is just one issue. For me, the larger issue here is that you're letting other people guilt-trip you into doing what they want you to do with your kid, and that's not the wisest precedent to set.

At what point to you draw the line and tell them "No, that's none of your business"? Or do they get their way with everything?

Mark Hamill

Daroxtar wrote: »

No, i'm asking what other people will do.

You are asking what other people will do in relation to santa as a deflection to people questioning you bringing up your kids as catholic when you dont believe in it. It reads exactly like you are using the fact other parents lie to their kids about santa as a justification for you to lie to your kids about bringing them up as catholics.

Ickle Magoo

Daroxtar wrote: »

Will Santa Claus be calling to your kids and will you have issues about telling them that lie?

We don't do Santa...other people ask them if Santa is coming like it should be a big deal but he doesn't get a very big place in the proceedings here. When I was a kid I got a stocking with a couple of pieces of fruit and a selection box from Santa & all my real presents from real people and we do likewise.

Daroxtar

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You are asking what other people will do in relation to santa as a deflection to people questioning you bringing up your kids as catholic when you dont believe in it. It reads exactly like you are using the fact other parents lie to their kids about santa as a justification for you to lie to your kids about bringing them up as catholics.

There seems to be a conception that i'll be lying to my kids. I wont, i stated that already. If they ask i'll tell them what i think.

There seems to be confusion in here between atheism, agnosticism and anti-catholicism.

Dades

Daroxtar wrote: »

There seems to be confusion in here between atheism, agnosticism and anti-catholicism.

There usually is amongst the general populace. Atheism & agnosticism are not mutually exclusive.
We're all agnostic to knowing, but atheist in our beliefs. Not knowing whether something exists doesn't preclude you from having a belief as to whether it does or not.

Let me ask you this - we agree we are not in a position to know if there is a god - but do you believe there is one?

As for anti-catholicism, well there's a lot of that around at the moment for obvious reasons and it certainly isn't restricted to non-believers. It's the wrong time to appear and suggest it's harmless to give the church access to the minds of your kids.

liamw

Daroxtar wrote: »

Firstly as an Agnostic i believe that there is neither sufficient proof of gods existence nor of non existence. Nobody knows for sure one way or another.

So do you think that's a reasonable position to take when talking about the Flying Spagetti Monster, fairies or the infinite amount of things you could believe in and which there is no evidence for?

Things are not 50/50 just because you can't disprove them.

Mark Hamill

Daroxtar wrote: »

There seems to be a conception that i'll be lying to my kids. I wont, i stated that already. If they ask i'll tell them what i think.

Then why are you asking what will other people do with their kids with respect to santa in repsonse to being questioned about lying to your kids for 12 years by bringing them up catholic?
Do you not see how it is a lie to bring your kids catholic if you dont yourself believe in it?

Daroxtar wrote: »

There seems to be confusion in here between atheism, agnosticism and anti-catholicism.

Whats that got to do with my statement? Wether you are atheist, agnostic or anti catholic, its still a lie to bring them up as catholic if you are just doing to appease relatives.

I have a question for you. if your relatives wanted your kid circumcised, would you do it to appease them? Whats your limit for doing things to your kids, you dont actually believe in, in order to make someone else happy?

Goduznt Xzst

Daroxtar wrote: »

Firstly as an Agnostic i believe that there is neither sufficient proof of gods existence nor of non existence. Nobody knows for sure one way or another. Thats not quite polar opposite to your view that he doesn't exist. Maybe the revision of definitions is something you should take up yourself.

*sigh* Polar opposite in the context of this thread... not in general, I would have thought that would of been self evident, but I guess not. Ergo, my opinion is a polar opposite to yours in regards to acquiescence to the Church and how much respect they should be shown.

Daroxtar wrote: »

Secondly you talk about the fear and guilt my kids will also have to go through. Where in fuk are you getting that from? Thats purely presumptious on your behalf. Trust me, no fear or guilt or any self loathing going on here mate.

Well, not entirely, I also added the caveat that they wouldn't if they became practicing Catholics... but I suppose then they'll have inherited all the guilt that that Religion spreads.

Further, if your children become agnostics and have to choose how to deal with the Catholic Schools when they wish to secure their children with an education locally how do you imagine they will handle it when they remember how their parents dealt with the dilemma.

Do you imagine they will cave as a Catholic education "didn't do them any harm", and also because of the fear that "our child won't be treated as an equal", they'd feel guilt over, supposedly, turning their child into a pariah.

Daroxtar wrote: »

Thirdly Re. open mindedness- going by you username one would assume you have a fairly closed mindset about faith and religion in general. You presume, i assume...i know,i know, more ironic than a big iron tank full of iron ore , but hey....:rolleyes:

lol... tell me, when Nietzsche got the Madman to say "God is dead" do you imagine he literally meant an actual Deity had physically died? Do you imagine Nietzsche was close minded in claiming he knew God was dead?