Would we be better off under the Brits?

rcunning03

A lot of people seem annoyed with the country and the politicians the country repeatedly votes in and there seems to be an undercurrent in some articles in the papers that we would be better off in the union.

Maybe the countryside would have less bungalow blitz and urban estates would be a bit better planned, but would we really be better off in the uk?

Political correctness seems to be worse over there than here. Social freedoms are being removed quicker over there (with the exception of the smoking ban). Considering what the new labour party is doing to the pound, surely the stability of the Euro has it's advantages?

It's not like Britain has an Empire anymore. If we were Jamican or Kenyan then you definately could argue we'd be better off as British, but are things so bad in the country?

If it was a case Britain still had an empire and a pound coin was still a quarter ounce of gold, then I would be for reunification but as it stands with New labour and people getting hysterically offended at the smallest things, I don't think things would be that much better (if at all) by us becoming part of the UK again.

Any benefits I'm missing?

Gary L

We'd be better off under the Germans

The reality is we could never accept the idea after all the fuss we threw up leaving. Surrendering our independence back over to the English? It wouldn't fly. I think that cultural reality would override any but overwhelming economic arguments.

rcunning03

Gary L wrote: »

We'd be better off under the Germans

The reality is we could never accept the idea after all the fuss we threw up leaving. Surrendering our independence back over to the English? It wouldn't fly. I think that cultural reality would override any but overwhelming economic arguments.

I agree with you, definately about the Germans. Tough times for this state, if they loose the support of the Gaurds and Army, who knows what could happen. I'm still holding out for some Norwegian nationalist that wants to reunite the viking world.

Koloman

rcunning03 wrote: »

A lot of people seem annoyed with the country and the politicians the country repeatedly votes in and there seems to be an undercurrent in some articles in the papers that we would be better off in the union.

Maybe the countryside would have less bungalow blitz and urban estates would be a bit better planned, but would we really be better off in the uk?

Political correctness seems to be worse over there than here. Social freedoms are being removed quicker over there (with the exception of the smoking ban). Considering what the new labour party is doing to the pound, surely the stability of the Euro has it's advantages?

It's not like Britain has an Empire anymore. If we were Jamican or Kenyan then you definately could argue we'd be better off as British, but are things so bad in the country?

If it was a case Britain still had an empire and a pound coin was still a quarter ounce of gold, then I would be for reunification but as it stands with New labour and people getting hysterically offended at the smallest things, I don't think things would be that much better (if at all) by us becoming part of the UK again.

Any benefits I'm missing?

Well if you look at Northern Ireland then you would see that they have a better health care system to us. Everything seems cheaper and if there was a vote in the morning on a United Ireland then all of the Protestants and a substantial minority of the Catholics would vote against it. They know what side their bread is buttered and they are not going to jeopardise it on a unified Island.

They get a massive subsidy from the British government which keeps them in the lifestyle to which they are accustomed.

Should we have a vote in the south on whether we should have a 32 county Northern Ireland instead? I'm sure the Brits would love to have us back!

Bigdeadlydave

No we wouldnt be better off under the Brits. They had 700 years to prove their way was best and they failed.

rcunning03

Koloman wrote: »

Well if you look at Northern Ireland then you would see that they have a better health care system to us. Everything seems cheaper and if there was a vote in the morning on a United Ireland then all of the Protestants and a substantial minority of the Catholics would vote against it. They know what side their bread is buttered and they are not going to jeopardise it on a unified Island.

They get a massive subsidy from the British government which keeps them in the lifestyle to which they are accustomed.

Should we have a vote in the south on whether we should have a 32 county Northern Ireland instead? I'm sure the Brits would love to have us back!

It would be interesting to see what the result of that above mentioned vote would be. The UK defeict is only slightly smaller than ours, could be a case of out of the frying pan into the fire.

I'm going to hold out for us being made a state in the Federal republic of Germany or some kind of Scandinavian ultra nationalist who wants to reclaim Ireland as part of a united Viking world.

Iwasfrozen

rcunning03 wrote: »

I'm going to hold out for us being made a state in the Federal republic of Germany or some kind of Scandinavian ultra nationalist who wants to reclaim Ireland as part of a united Viking world.

Do you speak German, or even Norse ?

Koloman

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Do you speak German, or even Norse ?

I think the answer to that question would be NEIN!

brianthebard

100+ years of mismanagement under the act of union would suggest no op. Plus the UK has its own economic problems in case you hadn't noticed, its hardly a beacon of capitalist virtue right now.

rcunning03

Koloman wrote: »

I think the answer to that question would be NEIN!

Your right I don't and I'd probably be among the first they would get rid of, still better than slowly starving to death because a new and excessive carbon tax restricts the supply of food.

CerebralCortex

brianthebard wrote: »

100+ years of mismanagement under the act of union would suggest no op. Plus the UK has its own economic problems in case you hadn't noticed, its hardly a beacon of capitalist virtue right now.

Yes this is important to remember. Have you ever wondered why the English alone have a population of close to 50 million and Ireland roughly 10 times less? If you have then you'll realise we're better off governing our selfs even though we have so much to learn.

recedite

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Yes this is important to remember. Have you ever wondered why the English alone have a population of close to 50 million and Ireland roughly 10 times less? If you have then you'll realise we're better off governing our selfs even though we have so much to learn.

Here we go again, they started the famine (nothing to do with a fungus)
then gave us Indian Corn knowing full well we didn't know how to cook it. Some say they even hid all the fishing nets :rolleyes:

No, we would not be better off under the Brits; the English showed an unwillingness to share power fairly with the 3 other parties to the union.
But we need to stop blaming everyone else for our problems.

brianthebard

recedite wrote: »

Here we go again, they started the famine (nothing to do with a fungus)
then gave us Indian Corn knowing full well we didn't know how to cook it. Some say they even hid all the fishing nets :rolleyes:

Who mentioned the famine?

RiverWilde

Given the fuss we made to break with the UK - re-unification of the island as part of the UK again wouldn't fly. That said when I see how the 26 counties are run I wonder why the hell we bothered agitating for independence in the first place.

Riv

Welease

Replacing one set of self serving politicians with another set of self serving politicians won't solve much..

The Irish populace need to stand up and be counted and stop blaming everyone else for the problems. The Irish populace voted in FF and let them run the country in this manner. Noone else had the ability to put and keep them there..

The Irish populace need to hold their politicians to account, and if they don't do the job then they don't get voted back in. While people blindly vote for the same old local candidate irrespective of their value then we will continue to feel the pain of their mismanagement.

Gary L

I couldn't agree more. The level of voter apathy in this country honestly disgusts me.

Misty Chaos

To be quite honest, I personally feel more at home in England than in Ireland and if something like a re-unification with the UK came up, I'd be one person that would be supporting it.

I know though that such an idea just wouldn't fly well in a lot of places, including where I live, which has a lot of IRA and Republicanism ingrained into its local culture.

Then again, I have to remind myself that Britain has had hundreds of years in which it built its infrastructure to the way it is today whatever's Ireland has barely had even 100 years to properly even begin building its infrastructure, which probably explains why people moan about Irish infrastructure being so crap!

recedite

Misty Choas wrote: »

Britain has had hundreds of years in which it built its infrastructure to the way it is today whatever's Ireland has barely had even 100 years to properly even begin building its infrastructure, which probably explains why people moan about Irish infrastructure being so crap!

We were on a par 100 years ago; we had more miles of railway than we do today, covering more towns, and the tram system in Dublin was more extensive than the Luas is today. As for motorways; we have had the same amount of time in which to develop them.

santry_goonshow

Why don't we just submit to the Icelanders? Seriously. They had a parliament there over 900 years ago and are one of the oldest democracies in the world. We have a genetic link to them [something like 30% of them exhibit dominant "Hebridean & Hibernian" genes. They know how to tell their politicians to buzz off, and peacefully. They dont spend hours backbiting and whingeing about the weather, they get on with it. And anyone who comes into their country wanting to live there to improve their lot is welcomed because they will improve things.

fuelinjection

No we would be treated like Scotland in the union - ignored, suspected, taxed and looked down on. Plus there would probably be decades of ecomonic revenge on us as we dealt a shock to their empire as we were the first (and closest) to leave the union. It set a precedent for other countries such as India (who Ireland was the first county to recognise Internationally).
Also all their absentee landowning peers in the House of Lords would come back and reclaim large chucks of land which "were stolen from them".

Some poeple would perhaps support this (I know british royals would), but if you feel that strongly about it set up a political party and run for election. It is a Republic after all.

anymore

The more involvement and contact I have had with Councillors and TDs, the more there is a part of me that would agree !
However, if Ireland were still a part of UK, then large parts of the country would be little better than locations for UK holiday homes and the industrialisation we have seen the fifties onwards may not have occurred at all. The industrial core of the country would still be mainly focused on Belfast and its hinterland and the promotional activities which competed so successfully for decades against countries like UK would probably not have happened.
We certainly would not have the favourable Corporate tax rate that, in the past, was so helpful in attracting FDI and 'internal emigration' to ' the 'Mainland' would have stifled much of the enterprising zeal that did emerge in the 26 counties.
We would also of course have to keeping kissing the nether regions of the dreadful and dysfunctional Windsor family or, to give them their more correct name, the Saxe - Coburgs.

Koloman

anymore wrote: »

The more involvement and contact I have had with Councillors and TDs, the more there is a part of me that would agree !

Because of the small size of the country where everyone knows everyone else means that a lot of corruption can go on unchecked as many people would not like to be a whistle-blower on someone they know. This situation would be less likely if we where part of the UK on a purely size basis. The system of governance would be far more anonymous.

Being part of the UK would mean far less corruption I would say.

UltimateMale

Koloman wrote: »

Because of the small size of the country where everyone knows everyone else means that a lot of corruption can go on unchecked as many people would not like to be a whistle-blower on someone they know. This situation would be less likely if we where part of the UK on a purely size basis. The system of governance would be far more anonymous.

Being part of the UK would mean far less corruption I would say.

Are some you crowd just playing Devil's advocate - or are you just out of your minds

Corruption - never heard of the MP's expences scandal ? Or the current investigation into the war in Iraq under the sexed up reports ?

Cronyism - so who invented the old school tie/old regiment system of wealthy jobs for the boys ? A country that entitles parasites to billions of pounds a year i..e Duke of Westminister, just because their Norman ancestors grabbed the land from the ordinary English people hundreds of years ago ?

Join with Britain, your pulling me leg

RepublicanEagle

Would we be better off?Does the war in Afghanistan/Iraq,lack of border control,uncontrollable illegal immigration,the surge in the popularity of extreme political groups,hooliganism,knife crime,the growth of Islamic fundamentalism,a zeal for political correctness and also a rise in unemployment within the UK answer your question?

It does so for me...............that would be a NO by the way.However it is not that much worse there than here tbh.Does have its small advantages,the NHS for example and free dental care.In light of the lack of accountablility within the political spectrum in Ireland,if you are caught in the UK with "your hand in the cookie jar",there will be more dire consequences for that bureaucrat.

anymore

UltimateMale wrote: »

Are some you crowd just playing Devil's advocate - or are you just out of your minds

Corruption - never heard of the MP's expences scandal ? Or the current investigation into the war in Iraq under the sexed up reports ?

Cronyism - so who invented the old school tie/old regiment system of wealthy jobs for the boys ? A country that entitles parasites to billions of pounds a year i..e Duke of Westminister, just because their Norman ancestors grabbed the land from the ordinary English people hundreds of years ago ?

Join with Britain, your pulling me leg

The manner in which the MP's expense scandal and the way in which a senior police commander was jailed for four years shows that for all its faults, the UK system is infinitely better than the Irish one. What has come of the McBrearty scandal apart from the taxpyer having to pay out compensation ?

anymore

Koloman wrote: »

Because of the small size of the country where everyone knows everyone else means that a lot of corruption can go on unchecked as many people would not like to be a whistle-blower on someone they know. This situation would be less likely if we where part of the UK on a purely size basis. The system of governance would be far more anonymous.

Being part of the UK would mean far less corruption I would say.

I think a large part of it is that neither TDs not Councillors are willing to publicly criticise the Local authorities or City/County managers or else they simply do not care about a whole range of issues.

UltimateMale

anymore wrote: »

The manner in which the MP's expense scandal and the way in which a senior police commander was jailed for four years shows that for all its faults, the UK system is infinitely better than the Irish one. What has come of the McBrearty scandal apart from the taxpyer having to pay out compensation ?

The MP's expense scandal resulted in a few resignations, deselections and apologies - a bit like our own excuse for a government. No point in getting carried away that, say, Bertie Ahern resigned and Liam Lawlor was sent to prison etc

No one more than me would believe that the coppers responcible for the persecution of the McBrearty's should be behind bars. But lets not get too carried away with one British copper getting jailed for lieing, when vastly greater amount of British coppers were let away for much greater offences like the murder of Catholics, colluding with loyalists, Birmingham 6, Guildford 4 etc, etc.

There's a hell of a lot wrong with our own system, but the last place in the world to be putting on a pedestal for political and judicial justice is Britain. That should be obvious to anyone :rolleyes:

anymore

UltimateMale wrote: »

The MP's expense scandal resulted in a few resignations, deselections and apologies - a bit like our own excuse for a government. No point in getting carried away that, say, Bertie Ahern resigned and Liam Lawlor was sent to prison etc

No one more than me would believe that the coppers responcible for the persecution of the McBrearty's should be behind bars. But lets not get too carried away with one British copper getting jailed for lieing, when vastly greater amount of British coppers were let away for much greater offences like the murder of Catholics, colluding with loyalists, Birmingham 6, Guildford 4 etc, etc.

There's a hell of a lot wrong with our own system, but the last place in the world to be putting on a pedestal for political and judicial justice is Britain. That should be obvious to anyone :rolleyes:

You are ignoring the fact that four sitting MPs are being charged with fraud in relation to thier expenses claims and this is happening after a realtively short investigation period. Justice, at least for some of these MOs is seing to be done. Where is the equivalent in Irleland ?
I dont have to put the UK on a pedestal to point out thier sytem and the people who work in it are more honourble than Irish politicians and as one who always regarded myself as anti - imperialist, it gives me no pleasure to sat that.

La Madame

Somebody before me mentioned that we would be better off with Germany instead of Britain. The UK seems to be a bit of a 'Goner' in todays world.
As a German 17th State (Maritime) there could be a lot of advantages .

1) Improvement of Infra-structure
2) Improvement of Health Services
3) Decentralised Local financing
4) Putting local Irish Chiftains eg. HealyRays etc. out of power (maybe with special force units)
5) Ban the Irish Catholic Church of ALL Powers within the State.

OK this sounds tough - but in this State the Irish Republic is in - only tough measures can help.....keep one of your Clowns ...I think they call him Willi of Dea in mind

spids

id say we wud be better off under the brits feicin euro screwed us up. we wudnt have so many non irish milkin the feicin system

sparkling sea

We have done badly in recent years there is no getting away from the fact.

Why Britain though.

I totally agree that the infrastructure in Britain is far superior to our own but they do have amuch larger population and obviously they have better planners then we do.

I also agree the although the British have problems with corrupt politicans, the way in which they deal with corruption, the public tolerance of it and penalties for such corruption are much harsher then in Ireland.

I dont think we should rejoin Britain but we could learn alot from them. I wouldn't like to live within a state were the media and legislatures push such a fear culture though.

Dazd_N_Confusd

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

No we wouldnt be better off under the Brits. They had 700 years to prove their way was best and they failed.

Maybe it's because we kept on fighting?

red herring

I honestly find the question of this thread quite shocking. Would we be better off under the brits? Quite aside from the problems Britain is facing at present as illustrated by previous posters- knife crime, mass immigration, political corruption, poor public education system.. it is disturbing to hear discussion of ''what cost shall we barter our independence for?''
Perhaps for the sake of a better infra-structure..? Or better still, for non-corrupt politicians. -ignore the fact that they most likely won't last the 2012 elections- all that matters is the present, right? Maybe we should resign our sovereignty because hey, at present things our tough for our economy!
I know our countrys in the s**t at the moment but really, we've only had democracy less than 100 years, how are we going to run this republic in future if everytime s**t happens, we can't cope and discuss wild ideas of ''submitting'' to other countries to take the easy way out?!

So to answer the question, ''would we be better off under British rule?'' I would respond with another question, ''What price do put on independence?'' Previous men of Ireland decided it was worth their lives. Clearly its price has devalued since, if we have people discussing at what cost they would barter it for.

Iwasfrozen

red herring wrote: »

I honestly find the question of this thread quite shocking. Would we be better off under the brits? Quite aside from the problems Britain is facing at present as illustrated by previous posters- knife crime, mass immigration, political corruption, poor public education system..

These problems in Britain happen mostly due to the overcrowding of a country little bigger then Ireland with a population x15 times greater.

There is no proof Ireland would suffer the same problems as England were it in the U.K.

red herring wrote: »

it is disturbing to hear discussion of ''what cost shall we barter our independence for?''

"Our independence" is an oxymoron in ways. How can a people be collectively independent ? Surely by it's very nature "independence" highlights the right of the "individual" to freedom.

If you as a person can do more or less what you want then you are independant or "free". And as Britain is a free country your arguement falls apart.

red herring wrote: »

Perhaps for the sake of a better infra-structure..? Or better still, for non-corrupt politicians. -ignore the fact that they most likely won't last the 2012 elections- all that matters is the present, right? Maybe we should resign our sovereignty because hey, at present things our tough for our economy!

I don't think anybody here is saying we should resign our soverignty, especially not because things are bad at the moment.

red herring wrote: »

I know our countrys in the s**t at the moment but really, we've only had democracy less than 100 years, how are we going to run this republic in future if everytime s**t happens, we can't cope and discuss wild ideas of ''submitting'' to other countries to take the easy way out?!

Do you know that Ireland as a member of the U.K had 100 members in the British House of Commons ? More then twice the number as Scotland (45) with 1/4 of the population.

How was it not democratic ?

red herring wrote: »

So to answer the question, ''would we be better off under British rule?'' I would respond with another question, ''What price do put on independence?'' Previous men of Ireland decided it was worth their lives. Clearly its price has devalued since, if we have people discussing at what cost they would barter it for.

As I've show already in this post, a people cannot be collectively independant. Only a single person can be independant, and that can be achieved under any free Government.

Joey the lips

There is a lot of british I would not mind being under.. Cheryle cole is one however on a political level I think now we would not be better off under the british. I think the germans would be a good progression for us...

There is too much deep seated hatred for the british to ever ananyise this properly however I am not a fan of british law(despite the fact we adopted most of it) I am not a fan of the british culture of honouring the monarch and mostly I am not a fan of how civil rights has changed in britain the last few years...


However I love the fact that they still have there own currancy and i think this has protected them from the falls we experienced..... Well at least thats david mc Williams theory and I am going with that.

Sand

Id rather the Germans myself.

The British have made pretty much the same mistakes as we have...perhaps not as blatantly given the sheer size of their economy and the higher quality of their civil service/regulatory enviroment, but theyve let spending get out control based on borrowing, started up a property bubble, their tax revenues have collapses, and they are paralysed politically with no one willing to lay out the simple brutal facts to the electorate - about as stern as it gets is the UK claiming it will get its deficit to about 100 billion a year in a couple of years. Thats not really a well run country, even if the economic and political (integrity...MPs abusing expenses was a scandal in the UK, in Ireland "the Bull" got a standing ovation) infrastructure is of a higher quality.

MysNthR0p3

We already live under Brit rule to some extent. Very few decisions made by our successive governments have been original. They usually are ideas first implemented in the UK and the majority party here steals the idea as their own. Kind of like a political version of the Brits claiming successful Irish celebrities as "British" but in reverse.

As mentioned previously, instead of looking for new foreign idiots to screw us why don't we try getting of our lazy ar$es and vote. It'll take a few governments to catch on, but eventually they'll realise they can't be completely corrupt and incompetent and still be in power anymore.

MysNthR0p3

spids wrote: »

id say we wud be better off under the brits feicin euro screwed us up. we wudnt have so many non irish milkin the feicin system

Sounds like you're jealous of the competition.

Judging from your spelling, you might need a dictionary to figure out the bigger words. :P

Amhran Nua

Ask us the question again when the population reaches the level it was at in the 1830s. Besides which, why would we want to join the only country in Europe thats actually doing worse than us in almost every way? If the Lib Dems get their referendum on leaving the EU entirely, expect even more hilarity to ensue.

owenc

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Ask us the question again when the population reaches the level it was at in the 1830s. Besides which, why would we want to join the only country in Europe thats actually doing worse than us in almost every way? If the Lib Dems get their referendum on leaving the EU entirely, expect even more hilarity to ensue.

Oh aye so irelands economy is better than uks!! yeah right why are so many people going to the uk then? Why don't you have a better rail infrastructure, roads etc?? Did you not notice that america is behind you and in that case are you going to say that ireland has a better economy than the usa!:pac::pac::pac::pac:

Koloman

owenc wrote: »

Oh aye so irelands economy is better than uks!! yeah right why are so many people going to the uk then? Why don't you have a better rail infrastructure, roads etc?? Did you not notice that america is behind you and in that case are you going to say that ireland has a better economy than the usa!:pac::pac::pac::pac:

Well to be fair the railways in NI are a bit of an embarrassment! They make Irish Rail look like the SNCF! Also, I wouldn't get so cocky about the NI economy, especially if David Cameron gets in! Big spending cuts are on the way.

wolfpawnat

Dazd_N_Confusd wrote: »

Maybe it's because we kept on fighting?

Actually you will notice Ireland had aproximately 6-7 rebellions in said 700 years, and 2 of them were only 5 years apart, ergo, if Britland was going to make us a prosperous nation they would have. Also it had been 42 years since the last rebellion when the Great Famine struck, they exported our corn and wheat and watched us starve and die of disease. They only saw Ireland as a cheap ground for the production of their goods.

If you could bring back people from the dead I would rouse the men and women of the island of Ireland and inform them that there are some that people that believe oppression and indeed acts of genocide are better for Ireland than the freedom they gave their lives for. They would die again of absolute shock!

Yes the politicans WE elected are after fecking up thr country, so what do we do.....................we turf them out, not our fecking constution!!!!!!!!!

If you want to be part of the British empire, there are boats leaving from Dun Laoighaire and Rosslare daily and there are 3 major airports, flights are cheap on Ryanair!

Mike 1972

wolfpawnat wrote: »

If you want to be part of the British empire, there are boats leaving from Dun Laoighaire .....

KINGSTOWN old boy Kingstown !

wolfpawnat

Mike 1972 wrote: »

KINGSTOWN old boy Kingstown !

Thats it, and sure you can get the no.7 bus there from Sackville street

Iwasfrozen

wolfpawnat wrote: »

If you could bring back people from the dead I would rouse the men and women of the island of Ireland and inform them that there are some that people that believe oppression and indeed acts of genocide are better for Ireland than the freedom they gave their lives for. They would die again of absolute shock!

Then what would be the point of rousing them ?

wolfpawnat

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Then what would be the point of rousing them ?

It fits the topic of this thread! After 8 centuaries of opression and men and women who gave their lives for Irish freedom, it is when you read a thread like this you have you think of their sacrifice.

Iwasfrozen

wolfpawnat wrote: »

It fits the topic of this thread! After 8 centuaries of opression and men and women who gave their lives for Irish freedom, it is when you read a thread like this you have you think of their sacrifice.

I do not understand what you mean by freedom. The United Kingdom was a democracy and Irish people elected MPs to Westminster. In fact due to historical significance Ireland had more MPs in Whitehall then Scotland, despite having a much smaller populace.

These men did not give their lives for freedom as we were already a democracy, they gave their lives for a dumb celtic dream of a bi-lingual, gaelic games playing Emerald Isle that they didn't even realise despite gaining power !

Not that I'm complaining as I still live in a first world Democracy.

wolfpawnat

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I do not understand what you mean by freedom. The United Kingdom was a democracy and Irish people elected MPs to Westminster. In fact due to historical significance Ireland had more MPs in Whitehall then Scotland, despite having a much smaller populace.

These men did not give their lives for freedom as we were already a democracy, they gave their lives for a dumb celtic dream of a bi-lingual, gaelic games playing Emerald Isle that they didn't even realise despite gaining power !

Not that I'm complaining as I still live in a first world Democracy.

:eek:

I am sorry but are you Irish, have you studied Irish history AT ALL regardless of nationality. I ask this solely because the absolute lack of knowledge of it in your reply is so blatent!

Since the beginning of English occupation there was severe acts of genocide against the Irish, one that springs to mind is the siege of Drogheda by Cromwell in 1649, where ever man, woman and child within the walls of the city were killed, purely as a method of showing the native Irish of the force that any and all resistance would be met with. Not really very democratic now is that!?!

The first rebellion by Ireland was in the 1300's, that is a long time of attempting to get a foreign force out of the country!

I will stick to the main rebellions that are well known as Irelands attempts for freedom are so vast in number I would need 800 years to repeat them!

1798 - Theobald Wolfe Tone is the figure head most remembered here. He was a Church of Ireland Protestant who came from a good family, Even with his background he saw the people of Ireland were being suppressed in their own land!

1803 - led by Robert Emmet. Another wealthy person who felt Ireland needed its freedom!

1848 - The "Famine Rebellion" as I stated in an earlier post on this thread, Ireland was merely an area for the growth of Britsh crops, when the potatoes failed, the people of Ireland were forced to watch and starve as grains such as wheat, corn, etc were taken to port towns and and shipped over seas by British. Also during the famine landlords who were given these estates by the British Crown for moving to Ireland ( the people of Ireland who had owned the land before the arrival of the British were forced to become tenants) evicted the Irish as they were not productive tentants (as one tends not to be when they are starving and dying of disease) I will state here that some landlords had the decency to open soup kitchens, though often to be allowed to eat from these "kitchens" the person had to denounce the Catholic religion and become Church of Ireland members.

1867 - Led to the Manchester Martyrs.

1916 - The most famous in my opinion, the Irish Citizen Army (under Connolly), Irish Repubican Brotherhood (under Mac Diarmada) and the Irish Voulnteers (under Pearse) joined forces and even had the help of Sir Rodger Casment (though that went belly up on landing the guns) to unite for Irish freedom, though it was originally condemned by the Irish public, when the leaders were being shot by firing squads for their "crimes" public opinion changed. Especially after the killing of James Connolly as he was injured in the fighting, brought to Dublin Castle to recouperate only to be tied to a chair (as he was too weak to stand) and shot, that even shocked George V of England and was getting Ireland international support!

War of Independence 1919-1921 - the final use of warfare against the Britih in the now republic of Ireland. Men were dragged from their homes at random for being Irish and tortured as they may have been in the IRA. Boys as young as 12 were subjected to this treatment! An example of British tyrany during this time is the RIC from the back of an truck firing their weapons randomly at people through the streets of Miltown Malbay in West County Clare and also setting their houses on fire, most with the occupants in them(though the act was in retaliation to the Rineen ambush, I cannot see why innocent men, women and children were shot at in Miltown) luckily only 6 members of the public were killed, 26 building burnt to the ground.

Then of course you have the North, which is a more grey area, though to this day there are those there that would do anything to have the country reunited. And before you say a word about democracy "if they wanted it they could have voted for it" electorial lines were altered in 1922 to ensure Protestant Unionist majorities in all areas so to ensure they remained in Britain. This was needed most in Belfast to ensure the indurtrial city remained part of the UK. The only place that was voted to remain in Ireland, because Catholics still outnumbered Protestants was Tyrone and that was ignored.

If Ireland was a democratic state under British rule, why would so many over so many years have died for Irish freedom. You clearly have no idea what British occupation meant for Ireland. If you were a Catholic man in Ireland you could not guarantee your wife and familt their safety!!!! you could have been killed at any time for just being Irish.

Iwasfrozen

wolfpawnat wrote: »

:eek:

I am sorry but are you Irish, have you studied Irish history AT ALL regardless of nationality. I ask this solely because the absolute lack of knowledge of it in your reply is so blatent!

blah blah blah... etc.

*Sigh*

And here I was hoping to have a nice discussion but what do you do ? You call me ignorant then go off on a huge ranting post telling me stuff that I already know. Instead of addressing the points in my post.

Now let us try this again shall we ? In modern times i.e pre Easter Rising Ireland was a democracy with much greater representation then Scotland. With home rule just down the line as soon as the war was over.

Why do you believe the Easter Rising was justified ? As I assume you do.

wolfpawnat

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

*Sigh*

And here I was hopig to have a nice discussion but what do you do ? You call me ignorant then go off on a huge ranting post telling me stuff that I already know. Instead of addressing the points in my post.

well then pray tell, what is the points of your post.

I see that it is your opinion that the men of Ireland who sacrifice their lives for nothing as we already were in a great life due to British occupation. I disgree and the above examples are my reason for disagreeing.

As for what do I see as freedom, I see being in charge of ourselves as a nation as freedom (though I will be the first to admit that the success of the country over the last 15 years was pissed away in mere minutes by the correent government)

Yes we were given more seats than Scotland however only Anglicans could run for seats in Westminister and their wants and the wants of the everyday Catholics which were the vast majority of the Irish public were 2 very different things.

Please accept my apology for making you feel like I was calling you ignorant however I do feel that the history of this island shows that, no, the Brits did not do anything good for our country and if they were in power again tomorrow I would do my best to be the next woman like Countess Markievicz! (minus the Count as a husband of course)

Is there any point in your post that I may have missed. I would be happy to give you my views as you have done yours!

wolfpawnat

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why do you believe the Easter Rising was justified ? As I assume you do.

You assume correctly. I believe it was men and women that were sick of being second class citizens in their own land and their attempt in ceasing the oppression. Between every rebellion there was talks between Ireland and England regarding the removal of Ireland from the united kingdom. When talks would stall and/or fail the people of Ireland who be of the opinion that violence was the only method of freedom.

Ireland was supposed to become a republic circa 1914, however the outbreak of WWI caused Anglo-Irish affairs to be put to the back burner, no doubt this fuelled the frustration of Irish republicans.

The members of the rising were using the only methods they knew of warfare, and had there not been a misunderstanding of the orders of the rising on the 23rd of April and if Casement had successfully landed the weapons at Banna Strand I would love to have seen the outcome of the rebellion.

Can I ask, had you been there IWasFrozen, what you would have done differently?