Pentagon Hijack impossible: Flight 77 flight deck door was shut for entire flight

Run_to_da_hills · 30-11-2009 8:11am #1

According to this article new evidence has appeared to prove that the flight deck was shut for the entire duration of this flight so no one could have possibly gained access to hijack this plane.

I always had my doubts about this particular incident. :rolleyes:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=18405

imstrongerthanu · 30-11-2009 8:37am

The data came from the actual black box which would suggest it is real.:eek:

Blazer · 30-11-2009 8:50am

christ they never stop...here they get all excited over the FDR data until they realize why the figures are fishy... lol

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=18239&st=60

meglome · 30-11-2009 9:23am

It's interesting that for years we were to believe that a plane didn't hit the pentagon at all. Now that the black box appears to show that the cockpit door didn't open it's a plane.

The FLT DECK DOOR shows CLOSED throughout all the previous 11 flights stored in the FDR as well. There is over 40 hours worth of data in the FDR. Therefore I don't know whether or not this parameter was sensed and recorded correctly. Note also that this parameter is only recorded once every 4 seconds.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=18239&view=findpost&p=10779429

So in the 11 previous flights recorded in the black box the flight deck door is never shown as open. Maybe I'm reaching here but was the sensor working?

imstrongerthanu · 30-11-2009 9:30am

What do you mean where did the people go?
I thought they died when the plane crashed into the pentagon?

meglome · 30-11-2009 9:35am

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

What do you mean where did the people go?
I thought they died when the plane crashed into the pentagon?

Well it depends on which version of the CT you hear. I edited my post with some very relevant info.

imstrongerthanu · 30-11-2009 9:41am

I thought we were talking about a plane that hit the pentagon?I'm not talking about a particular conspiracy theory and neither are you.We are talking about a door on an plane being closed.

How long were the other 11 flights?
Are air hostesses in and out of the cockpit?
Is the data downloadable from a government source or is this from a guy in Australia?
Is this the only black box discovered on sept 11th ?

meglome · 30-11-2009 9:43am

And again

You are correct about the short flights. The longest section of FDR data for all flights (engines on to engines off) is only 4 hours and 34 minutes. If the pilots never left the flight deck during the previous 11 flights, then it would appear to me that either:
(1) The flight deck door was never opened while the engines were running.
(2) The flight deck door open/closed state was not sensed and recorded correctly. e.g. The door sensor reports closed when the door is actually open.
(3) The flight deck door was opened, but for less than 4 seconds each time.

I am open to suggestions.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=18239&view=findpost&p=10779484

Personally I'm thinking point 1 is unlikely given I've seen the flight deck door open over the years when the engines were running.

meglome · 30-11-2009 9:50am

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

I thought we were talking about a plane that hit the pentagon?

We are but there are many versions of that CT. The main one was always a plane didn't hit the pentagon at all.

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

I'm not talking about a particular conspiracy theory and neither are you.We are talking about a door on an plane being closed.

I was trying to recall if Rtdh had said whether he believed a plane hit the pentagon previously but I can't. Just wondering had the story changed.

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

How long were the other 11 flights?

No idea, just read bits.

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

Are air hostesses in and out of the cockpit?

I've personally seen it happen.

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

Is the data downloadable from a government source or is this from a guy in Australia?

It should be. don't have the links.

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

Is this the only black box discovered on sept 11th ?

Actually can't remember.

imstrongerthanu · 30-11-2009 9:55am

Are we till talking about a door on an aeroplane being closed?
What type of plane were you on at the time as I've never seen it.
I'm talking about 747's, not Ryanair.

blubloblu · 30-11-2009 10:19am

If a door was forced open, would the sensor read it as open?

imstrongerthanu · 30-11-2009 10:20am

blubloblu wrote: »

If a door was forced open, would the sensor read it as open?

Yes

meglome · 30-11-2009 10:21am

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

Are we till talking about a door on an aeroplane being closed?
What type of plane were you on at the time as I've never seen it.
I'm talking about 747's, not Ryanair.

The sensor is showing that on 12 flights in total (including the final one) the cockpit door was never shown as open. The black box only records when the planes engines are running and only records the cockpit door every 4 seconds. So the question is why is the door not shown as being opened.

(1) The flight deck door was never opened while the engines were running.
(2) The flight deck door open/closed state was not sensed and recorded correctly. e.g. The door sensor reports closed when the door is actually open.
(3) The flight deck door was opened, but for less than 4 seconds each time.

My own personal view is No2. I have seen the cockpit door open/opened on planes with the engines running/flying.

meglome · 30-11-2009 10:22am

blubloblu wrote: »

If a door was forced open, would the sensor read it as open?

Assuming that the door was open for more than 4 seconds and the sensor was working correctly.

imstrongerthanu · 30-11-2009 10:24am

meglome wrote: »

The sensor is showing that on 12 flights in total (including the final one) the cockpit door was never shown as open. The black box only records when the planes engines are running and only records the cockpit door every 4 seconds. So the question is why is the door not shown as being opened.

My own personal view is No2. I have seen the cockpit door open/opened on planes with the engines running/flying.

I don't know because if the sensor was broke they wouldn't be allowed fly the plane.It's interesting the door never showed as opened for 12 flights very good info- thanks for digging that up.

So this is the only black box from that day?
And what type of aeroplane were you on when you seen the door opened personally?
I've been on many a 747 on long haul flights and have never seen this door opened.Then again i was in economy class.

seamus · 30-11-2009 10:29am

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

I don't know because if the sensor was broke they wouldn't be allowed fly the plane.

It's very plausible that the sensor was known to be faulty but rather than ground the plane over something as inconsequential as a cockpit door sensor, an engineer may have "jammed" the sensor into the CLOSED position to allow the plane to fly and then set up a fix/replace of the sensor for the next scheduled service.

meglome · 30-11-2009 10:35am

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

I don't know because if the sensor was broke they wouldn't be allowed fly the plane.It's interesting the door never showed as opened for 12 flights very good info- thanks for digging that up.

Well maybe or maybe not. This was 2001 when the doors themselves weren't that strong to begin with. Still it is interesting and possibly puts a very different slant on it than the OP.

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

And what type of aeroplane were you on when you seen the door opened personally?
I've been on many a 747 on long haul flights and have never seen this door opened.Then again i was in economy class.

I've been on a lot of flights over 28 years so I really can't remember the finer detail. I was on 12 flights one month last year but I have seen it happen no question. And remember a plane can be stopped on the tarmac with the engines still running.

imstrongerthanu · 30-11-2009 10:47am

Could of happened Seamus, but I would personally value my job.I don't buy that to be honest with you.But you never know.

The strength of the doors is irrelevant.
When you seen the doors opened you were not on a 747,maybe a domestic flight perhaps.

747

seamus · 30-11-2009 10:56am

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

Could of happened Seamus, but I would personally value my job.I don't buy that to be honest with you.But you never know.

I don't know the beginning or end of airline engineering protocols, but I'd be very surprised if it wasn't perfectly legitimate to disable non-critical and unimportant systems in order to allow the plane leave the tarmac.

meglome · 30-11-2009 11:06am

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

Could of happened Seamus, but I would personally value my job.I don't buy that to be honest with you.But you never know.

But it would have been a completely unimportant sensor at the time. Maybe it was just wired wrong.

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

The strength of the doors is irrelevant.
When you seen the doors opened you were not on a 747,maybe a domestic flight perhaps.

It wasn't a 747 that hit the Pentagon btw it was a 757.

I saw the cockpit door open on a 747 when I was roughly twelve. The pilots had some kids up there showing them.

Diogenes · 30-11-2009 11:23am

The Data claims the door never opened on any of previous 11 flights. 42 hrs flying time.

Are we really supposed to believe that in those previous 11 flights no flight attendant came into the cockpit to give the pilots food or drink? Or that none of the flight crew needed to use the loo on all the previous flights? Really?

imstrongerthanu · 30-11-2009 11:30am

seamus wrote: »

I don't know the beginning or end of airline engineering protocols, but I'd be very surprised if it wasn't perfectly legitimate to disable non-critical and unimportant systems in order to allow the plane leave the tarmac.

12 times?I'd like to keep my job.

imstrongerthanu · 30-11-2009 11:34am

Diogenes wrote: »

The Data claims the door never opened on any of previous 11 flights. 42 hrs flying time.

Are we really supposed to believe that in those previous 11 flights no flight attendant came into the cockpit to give the pilots food or drink? Or that none of the flight crew needed to use the loo on all the previous flights? Really?

Oh people came in and out,they must of.
How long to open a door and close it behind you?
If i was a terrorist i'd be in in 2 seconds flat.

imstrongerthanu · 30-11-2009 11:36am

meglome wrote: »

But it would have been a completely unimportant sensor at the time. Maybe it was just wired wrong.

It wasn't a 747 that hit the Pentagon btw it was a 757.

I saw the cockpit door open on a 747 when I was roughly twelve. The pilots had some kids up there showing them.

I heard of kids doing that.
Oh right 757 but nearly the same right?
Anyway I doubt it was wired wrong i think it was perhaps working right but the door was closed in time

Diogenes · 30-11-2009 11:47am

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

12 times?I'd like to keep my job.

One argument put forward on the JREF forum by a pilot, is that the Plane was built in 1991, and the black box installed in 1997. Yes the black box had a port to monitor door opening and closing, however the plane would probably require rewiring to wire the door to the box, and this may not have been done.

imstrongerthanu · 30-11-2009 11:48am

Diogenes wrote: »

One argument put forward on the JREF forum by a pilot, is that the Plane was built in 1991, and the black box installed in 1997. Yes the black box had a port to monitor door opening and closing, however the plane would probably require rewiring to wire the door to the box, and this may not have been done.

If that's the case what else wasn't done?
I mean your either going by regulations or your not.

Diogenes · 30-11-2009 11:48am

meglome wrote: »

I saw the cockpit door open on a 747 when I was roughly twelve. The pilots had some kids up there showing them.

When I was 10, my younger brother, myself and sister, were taken up to the cockpit of a transatlantic flight.

Diogenes · 30-11-2009 11:52am

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

If that's the case what else wasn't done?
I mean your either going by regulations or your not.

Is it even a required regulation to monitor cockpit doors opening and closing?

Our three options are

A) The censor was working correctly the door never opened on any of the 11 flights. This doesn't explain how exactly this ties into a conspiracy.

The censor wasn't working correctly, but this incredibly minor error wasn't noticed.

C) The censor was never hooked up to the black box.

seamus · 30-11-2009 11:53am

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

12 times?I'd like to keep my job.

It would only need to be done once. Then you write in the log book, "Door sensor faulty. Disabled. Needs to be replaced at next scheduled service interval. J. Bloggs".

You wouldn't ground an aircraft because a single internal door sensor was disabled. Definitely not in 2001 anyway.

Undergod · 30-11-2009 12:19pm

Diogenes wrote: »

When I was 10, my younger brother, myself and sister, were taken up to the cockpit of a transatlantic flight.

As far as I know, they had stopped doing this by the late 90s. I was on a transatlantic flight in winter 97 and I remember being told they weren't allowed bring kids up to the cockpit to show them. Though perhaps that was just Delta.

30-11-2009 1:56pm

Undergod wrote: »

As far as I know, they had stopped doing this by the late 90s. I was on a transatlantic flight in winter 97 and I remember being told they weren't allowed bring kids up to the cockpit to show them. Though perhaps that was just Delta.

I remember flying to Spain one summer around '99 or 2000 (pre 9/11 anyway) and there was a queue of kids going up to look in the cockpit.

Maybe it's American planes.

bonkey · 30-11-2009 2:30pm

meglome wrote: »

It's interesting that for years we were to believe that a plane didn't hit the pentagon at all. Now that the black box appears to show that the cockpit door didn't open it's a plane.

Without reading the threads in question, I would guess that if acceptance is built up for the notion that "the black box data doesn't make sense", this in turn will be used to conclude "the black box data was faked", which in turn supports the notion that there was no plane.

30-11-2009 2:38pm

bonkey wrote: »

Without reading the threads in question, I would guess that if acceptance is built up for the notion that "the black box data doesn't make sense", this in turn will be used to conclude "the black box data was faked", which in turn supports the notion that there was no plane.

Well if the blackbox was faked wouldn't they put in the door opening?

It could even be used perfectly against the conspiracy theories by saying "Look, here the black box shows the door opening at the exact same time we believe the terrorists entered the cockpit."

bonkey · 30-11-2009 3:46pm

King Mob wrote: »

Well if the blackbox was faked wouldn't they put in the door opening?

From memory, one of the main factors behind the creation of pilotsfortruth were alleged inaccuracies in the black-box data, from an (ex?)pilot...who was ultimately taking the stance that the data could not have come from the plane as alleged, because it was simply wrong....that it was faked well enough to survive a cursory examination, but when someone who knew what was what looked at it, flaws showed up.

Regardless of the accuracy of such a claim, this new claim is 100% consistent with that same line of argument.

Regardless of the authenticity of the data, it has taken years for someone to spot this. Is it so unreasonable to suggest that if it took people years to think to look at it, that it could have been overlooked in the making of a forgery?

I don't necessarily buy into the argument...I just don't think its inconsistent with the "there was no plane" stance, as meglome seemed to think.

30-11-2009 3:56pm

bonkey wrote: »

I don't necessarily buy into the argument...I just don't think its inconsistent with the "there was no plane" stance, as meglome seemed to think.

Well I think it's an example of the whole inconstancy of that argument.

Having the exact time the terrorists entered the cockpit would be a great tool against the conspiracy theories in my opinion. Even if they weren't being accurate surely they would have put something like this in.

But it continually begs the question of why didn't they make the blackbox accurate?
Also it begs the question if they couldn't fake the blackbox accurately why was information available to the guys at Pilotsforturth?

meglome · 30-11-2009 3:59pm

bonkey wrote: »

I don't necessarily buy into the argument...I just don't think its inconsistent with the "there was no plane" stance, as meglome seemed to think.

We've had it argued in here many times that there was simply no plane. So it now depends if people are going to say 'well it was actually a plane just on remote control' or are they saying that everything was faked, the data too. From the (admittedly) small number of posts I read in the thread Rtdh posted I got the impression they were saying it was a remote controlled plane. Now maybe I didn't read enough posts.

As you know I've always thought it was a plane, the evidence does add up for that. I'm interested in what the CT's have to say though.

Pentagon Hijack impossible: Flight 77 flight deck door was shut for entire flight

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