Compulsary unpaid leave?

gaeilgegrinds

Explain that one to me now...any inside info? I'm intrigued.

rainbowtrout

I don't think it'll apply to teaching. I don't have a link to back it up but I either read it in one of the papers or it was on one of the news reports. I think compulsory unpaid leave would apply to civil service/admin type jobs, not frontline services, ie teachers/nurses/gardai. We would have a different type of cut to make it fair across the board.

gaeilgegrinds

Righteo, was just discussing it with my OH, could take it after maternity leave and save us childcare costs. Here we are planning away!

smcgiff

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't think it'll apply to teaching. I don't have a link to back it up but I either read it in one of the papers or it was on one of the news reports. I think compulsory unpaid leave would apply to civil service/admin type jobs, not frontline services, ie teachers/nurses/gardai. We would have a different type of cut to make it fair across the board.

Yeah - it's hard to see how this would apply to teachers. It would be possible for nurses and gardai to work extra without extra pay, but not so for teachers. It will mean cuts to existing pay.

What I hope they don't do is mess with the likes of the honours degree allowance or yard duty allowance.

rainbowtrout

can't see how it would be workable in teaching anyway because of the nature of the job

gaeilgegrinds

I heard it suggested that we take an extra month off at half pay. Not sure how parents would feel seeing as I know some treat us as glorified babysitters, the Garda could have a busier month of May or June! I am only interested given the maternity leave issue, otherwise would have no interest whatsoever!

rainbowtrout

smcgiff wrote: »

What I hope they don't do is mess with the likes of the honours degree allowance or yard duty allowance.

They might well cut the degree allowance. Everyone registering with the T****ing Counil as a teacher now has to have a degree which in effect renders the allowance obsolete in the sense that nobody can get into teaching without one, which was not always the case in the past especially in the case of VECs. I wonder would they do away with the base level degree allowance for a pass degree and only give a top-up allowance for honours or a higher qualification.


The other one they could do away with is the HDip allowance, again aside from the few exceptions that are registered with the TC, once Section 30 goes through, everyone will need the Dip, so they might do away with the allowance for it.

rainbowtrout

gaeilgegrinds wrote: »

I heard it suggested that we take an extra month off at half pay. Not sure how parents would feel seeing as I know some treat us as glorified babysitters, the Garda could have a busier month of May or June! I am only interested given the maternity leave issue, otherwise would have no interest whatsoever!

Who would teach our classes though? Someone would still have to do it.

kaltz

They could deduct 12 days pay from the summer holidays

Miss Lockhart

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Who would teach our classes though? Someone would still have to do it.

I read that as meaning they would shorten the school year by another month... like gaeilgegrinds says, can't see that being too popular.

Where are all these ideas coming from anyway? Is it some new report?

rainbowtrout

kaltz wrote: »

They could deduct 12 days pay from the summer holidays

Damn, hadn't thought of that.

rainbowtrout

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Where are all these ideas coming from anyway? Is it some new report?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1129/breaking21.htm

Delphi91

Here's how Hawaii did it:

http://www.mercurynews.com/nation-world/ci_13594991?source=rss

smcgiff

kaltz wrote: »

They could deduct 12 days pay from the summer holidays

Assuming they don't shorten the school year - I really don't see that happening. This is effectively a straight cut.

smcgiff

rainbowtrout wrote: »

They might well cut the degree allowance. Everyone registering with the T****ing Counil as a teacher now has to have a degree which in effect renders the allowance obsolete in the sense that nobody can get into teaching without one, which was not always the case in the past especially in the case of VECs. I wonder would they do away with the base level degree allowance for a pass degree and only give a top-up allowance for honours or a higher qualification.

Good point - and if they do, they would reduce the degree allowance to the equivalent of the pass degree amount to save money. Hope not though

Kobayashi

smcgiff wrote: »

Assuming they don't shorten the school year - I really don't see that happening. This is effectively a straight cut.

Not really. Difference is, and the unions are cute here, you "work" 12-14 days unpaid and the government saves cash. The unions hope there is enough recovery in tax revenues next year that they can persuade the government not to target public sector next year.

Result? You have not had your salary reduced (although you lost 12-14 days pay during the year). If you are on €30k now you'll be on €30k then. If they don't go down this route, you'll be on €30k minus whatever percentage they cut.

smcgiff

rainbowtrout wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1129/breaking21.htm

This would be a better option, as it would be "temporary" - Eventually when the country gets back on its feet, it would be reversed. Theoretically at least.

smcgiff

Kobayashi wrote: »

Not really. Difference is, and the unions are cute here, you "work" 12-14 days unpaid and the government saves cash. The unions hope there is enough recovery in tax revenues next year that they can persuade the government not to target public sector next year.

Result? You have not had your salary reduced (although you lost 12-14 days pay during the year). If you are on €30k now you'll be on €30k then. If they don't go down this route, you'll be on €30k minus whatever percentage they cut.

See above - I agree. But within a year - for a teacher - it's effectively a % pay cut.

rainbowtrout

smcgiff wrote: »

Good point - and if they do, they would reduce the degree allowance to the equivalent of the pass degree amount to save money. Hope not though

Actually I'm just thinking they might scrap it altogether. Since the change from a degree to Honours Degree and diploma to Ordinary Degree, there is no such thing as a pass degree anymore (well since 2005). Previous to this it was 1.1/2.1/2.2/Pass. Now with two types of degree it's 1.1/2.1/2.2/3rd for an Honours Degree so everyone doing an Honours Degree gets an honours degree allowance. Unless you're going into teaching with a degree pre-2005 pass allowances probably aren't given out anymore. I might have that wrong but that's how I read it.

rainbowtrout

smcgiff wrote: »

See above - I agree. But within a year - for a teacher - it's effectively a % pay cut.

I agree, if you're coming home with less money in your pocket and it's not due to more taxes, it's a pay cut one way or the other.

smcgiff

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Actually I'm just thinking they might scrap it altogether. Since the change from a degree to Honours Degree and diploma to Ordinary Degree, there is no such thing as a pass degree anymore (well since 2005). Previous to this it was 1.1/2.1/2.2/Pass. Now with two types of degree it's 1.1/2.1/2.2/3rd for an Honours Degree so everyone doing an Honours Degree gets an honours degree allowance. Unless you're going into teaching with a degree pre-2005 pass allowances probably aren't given out anymore. I might have that wrong but that's how I read it.

I think you might be right, and they might just cut it.

However, Mary I's 3rd class honours degree isn't recognised as a qualifying Honours degree for honours allowance. Unions are apparently working on this. Also, I thought the Pats degree and others were still considered a pass degree for the purposes of the payment. Could be wrong on the Pat's degree classification though.

rainbowtrout

smcgiff wrote: »

I think you might be right, and they might just cut it.

However, Mary I's 3rd class honours degree isn't recognised as a qualifying Honours degree for honours allowance. Unions are apparently working on this. Also, I thought the Pats degree and others were still considered a pass degree for the purposes of the payment. Could be wrong on the Pat's degree classification though.

You're probably right, I'm only looking at it from a second level perspective. I did my teacher training in UL and back then people in our class got pass degrees and because it was a combined course it automatically meant pass hdip allowance as well. Since 2005 lowest grade possible is 3rd class honours, so they must all be getting the honours allowance for degree/dip. A couple of my friends aren't happy about it because they have the same degree qualification with a different name but are earning approximately 5k less.

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/department-circulars/articles/circular-article/ppt0102-payment-of-honours-primary-degree-allowance-to-recognised-teachers-who-hold-a-third-class-h//circular-back-to/qualifications-allowances/

smcgiff

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I did my teacher training in UL and back then people in our class got pass degrees and because it was a combined course it automatically meant pass hdip allowance as well.

That's a killer all right, would doing a masters sort this in 2nd level? At a €5k differential each year for the rest of your life (active and pension @ 1/2) it would definitely be worth doing it.

rainbowtrout

smcgiff wrote: »

That's a killer all right, would doing a masters sort this in 2nd level? At a €5k differential each year for the rest of your life (active and pension @ 1/2) it would definitely be worth doing it.

yep, even a pass in a master's course offers the same allowance as an honours degree so it would be well worth it. Masters fees 6-10k depending on where you go. It would be earned in two years (assuming a job with full hours)

StephenMacNally

This comment really gets parents annoyed. I heard one of the union leaders talking about being treated as "free babysitters" the other night.

If you think you are a glorified babysitter then quit. You are very well paid, went to university and are unionised. So stop coping out and get on with they job you are contracted to do.

Or take your unpaid leave during the summer holidays, allowing more time for PAID grinds, summer camps, exam marking and invigilating....etc

As Micheal O Leary says "all public servants should be made to accept a new contract with a minimum 40 hours per week and norm of 20 days holidays a year. Problem solved in one year!"

ytareh

Cant help but think this is gonna end badly for us 'babysitters' ,eh , I mean 'teaching professionals'...There's no way theyre going to just let us take a week or two off willy nilly .It's gas how every news report on the issue seems to end with "and irish teachers already work the shortest year in the EU"-FALSE!(Not the shortest in hours per year by a long shot)
Our 'unpaid leave' is most likely going to end up being in August!Either that or they might take our 'allowances' ,degree,H Dip etc .

spurious

They could delay schools opening until mid-September (or even October). It won't work if everyone takes leave at different times as subs would have to be put in. It sounds like another of the not-thought-out ideas.

Again, they could have looked internationally and had a look at the self-funded 'paid year off' that public servants in Australia can avail of and planned for future savings.

It's also a perfect time to take the religious-owned schools out of the hands of those who covered up systematic and organised abuse of children and completely re-organise educational provision in this country.

implausible

I heard a (TUI) rumour about adding an hour onto our working week, probably to cover s/s. Maybe ok on its own, but it'll mean job losses.....

Delphi91

Some options:

1. Lengthen the school year - schools re-open earlier or close later, but teachers do not get paid for this extra time - I can't imagine that being a runner, the cynic in me (and seen this from personal experience) says that some people will get pretty sick during this time. It would also cause difficulties with the running of exams.

2. School summer holidays as per normal, but teachers don't get paid for 20 days of it, i.e. 4 weeks (say the month of July).

3. Status quo remains, but teachers lose 1.66 days pay each month - equivalent to 20 days over a 12 month year.

Isotonic

Option no 3 sounds the best to me personally . That is if the 12 days gotta be taken:mad:

Powerhouse

spurious wrote: »

It's also a perfect time to take the religious-owned schools out of the hands of those who covered up systematic and organised abuse of children and completely re-organise educational provision in this country.

How on earth can you say it is a "perfect time" considering there is no money available to either purchase such properties assuming it could be done compulsorily which seems doubtful, or to set up from scratch elsewhere?

The government has rarely needed others to provide education as badly as they need it now.

rainbowtrout

deemark wrote: »

I heard a (TUI) rumour about adding an hour onto our working week, probably to cover s/s. Maybe ok on its own, but it'll mean job losses.....

Not just a rumour, one of the options being discussed by those of a higher rank. It wouldn't be for S&S. It would be for school planning/development but I could see that absorbing all Special Duties posts and some Assistant Principals duties over time. There would also be no need to give over any other time in school to school planning

Another suggestion being mooted for these days of unpaid leave is that each teacher would be allocated 12-14 days and we would lose that pay in the 2010 year, reverting back to normal in 2011 but we would be given those days over 3-4 years as personal days which are unpaid (on top of the personal days that already exist). The idea being that many teachers do not take personal days anyway, so most days wouldn't be taken overall so there would be no loss of work. Effectively we would just be losing 12-14 days pay, whether you take your leave is up to you.

The Degree/Dip allowances don't seem to be on the table at the moment, according to all sources

spurious

Powerhouse wrote: »

How on earth can you say it is a "perfect time" considering there is no money available to either purchase such properties assuming it could be done compulsorily which seems doubtful, or to set up from scratch elsewhere?

The government has rarely needed others to provide education as badly as they need it now.

Purchase? From people who allowed child abuse?
Take them as part compensation.

It will be interesting to see what framework they can cobble together to have numerous members of staff 'out' during the year. IMO the allowances are much easier to hit.

Powerhouse

spurious wrote: »

Purchase? From people who allowed child abuse?
Take them as part compensation.

You cannot legally confiscate private property. You keep mentoning child abuse but the circumstances are irrelevant to the constitution which thankfully allows people the freedom to privately own property. It is the state that would be compensating the religious orders if they somehow managed to get an emergency order to take over property on which schools' business is being transacted.

If the state was so inclined it could start from scratch itself anyway - why on earth should it feel the need to go through the years of legal argument and phenomenal cost involved in what you are suggesting in order to take over many of what are old buildings anyway? But the state does not have the money to provide new schools in every town in the country. It is a superficially nice secularist argument but has no practical application.

Lord TSC

If teachers are forced to take 2+ weeks off, is there any chance we can write to all those companies who send us bills every so week/month and ask them to take the month off as well?

Farolina81

Has a decision been made re 2-week pay cut?