Beggers: to give money or not to give money.

Eliot Rosewater

I was recently in Dublin, and struck with the large number of beggars on the street.

Some were quite upfront and vocal, approaching me and asking for money "for a hostel." I dont know whether to believe these pleadings or not. In the end I actually didnt give any beggar any money at all.

Do you think it is right or wrong to give money to beggars?

My rationale for not giving is two fold. Firstly, that money would be much better in that hands of groups such as Focus Ireland, who arent going to spend it on drink or drugs but on providing services such as food and accomadation.

Secondly, the principle reason people beg is because its a way to survive. In an economic sense, giving money provides an incentive for the beggar to stay on the street and not deal with his or her problems through the various agencies and charities that deal with homelessness.

Thoughts??

Edit: Seeming that my rationale was based on a charity donation, I just bought Xmas Cards from Focus Ireland, perhaps if you need cards buy them here too.

metrovelvet

I dont know. I dont give to beggars because it would seem unfair that I give to one and not to all of them. So I give to none of them. But I have to say the seeing them in the winter really gets to me. It is very very wrong.

CrazyChick18

I really hate people begging on the streets and even when your waiting in trafffic, i dont think there should be a need for some of the people that are beggin to be doing it, ok there are some people that have no other choice but some people only do it for drink and drugs and i would waste my money helping people like that, prefer to see it go to a good charity, but i suppose you never know.

Ginger Nut

You see beggars everywhere - I think this time of year is the worst. I work in Limerick and all you see are either eastern Europeans selling Big Issue or strung out addics begging and can be quiet aggressive. One guy stopped my friend and I and said that we dropped our purse - when we looked around he just said " Oh now I know ye have money" I changed my route from work after that - Same to be said for our so called "travelling Community" - I see the women in shawls dropped in town by their men in brand new Jeeps - and not just skinny jeeps - the big ones that cost over €100K - so keep your money deep in your pocket and donate to a worthy charity instead

Bottle_of_Smoke

Don't give money. Hate the sight of them. If no-one gave money they wouldn't come here(romas)

ChocolateSauce

I don't for two reasons; one, you're ignoring all beggars except the one you give money to, so it's much better to give it to a charity which helps them all equally, and two, you never know what they'll spend it on. I'm not going to give my money to a heroin addict for "a hostel".

Although I did once give 5 euro to a guy who asked me for money for alcohol. I admired his honesty.

mikemac

Billions and billions spent on welfare each year, while people may slip through the cracks at least the welfare officers will know where to go to.

I do get this at a Luas stop so I point at the welfare office right across the road. Maybe they have no entitlements but at least they can ask. When I was unemployed the state supported me and now my contributions can help you too, how a good system works

I give already....through taxes!
So no need to ask me again. I say the same to foreign aid collections or local school collections for "voluntary donations". Taxes cover this and if it's inadequate go lobby for change

deadhead13

Last month a Newstalk reporter, Henry Mckean, set out in an effort to discover if it is true or not that a large amount of money can be made from begging. He treated it like a job and begged for 8 hours a day for 5 days. I can't remember the exact amount he collected for his 40 hours, but I think it was around 70 euros.

Valmont

A friend of mine was on Nassau street yesterday and saw an old woman give a beggar a single digestive biscuit. When he just looked at her, she said "go on then! Eat it!"

To the point, I never give money to beggars even if I feel sorry for them. I always give money to the fellows on the dart with the accordions as their antics lighten up what is usually a tedious journey.

philologos

Give food directly if they are genuinely in need. I never give money to people begging directly. Who knows if it could be funding a drink or drugs habit?

Daftendirekt

No, I don't give money to beggars.

My reasons are the same as a couple of previous posters: it isn't really fair to just pick one at random and ignore the rest. Better off giving to a homeless charity if you want to help.

Or as Jakkass said, give them some food upfront!

The Corinthian

As people have touched on, beggars are not all part of the same demographic. Some are junkies, some are Travellers, some are gypsies, some are simply short-con scam artists or general wasters, and some are genuinely in a rut (where begging is arguably a poverty trap that keeps them afloat, but stops them from solving their issues - another discussion).

Now consider people stop giving them money - where are they going to make their money now?

The wasters and short-con scam artists would move on, maybe even get a job. Travellers have other traditional sources of income and would likely turn to those.

However, junkies still need to pay for their fix and while this is presently covered by begging (thanks to the Taliban ban on Opium production no longer being in effect, resulting in supply increase), when not how do they raise the money? Historically, violent crime is how.

Then there are the gypsies. Have you ever wondered how they make their money in countries where people don't give to beggars? Take the #19 tram in Rome if you want to find out.

So as much as I despise beggars, there is the argument that it comes down to protection money. Stop giving and the alternative may be less attractive.

BQQ

deadhead13 wrote: »

Last month a Newstalk reporter, Henry Mckean, set out in an effort to discover if it is true or not that a large amount of money can be made from begging. He treated it like a job and begged for 8 hours a day for 5 days. I can't remember the exact amount he collected for his 40 hours, but I think it was around 70 euros.

He obviously wasn't very good at it.

Saw a program about junkies on channel 4 once. Followed a guy in Edinburgh who made 250 sterling a DAY.
He wasn't just sitting down with a cup out though; he was hitting the shopping areas and getting in people's faces. They usually just gave him something to get rid of him.

Then he spent it all on Heroin :rolleyes:

cbreeze

no need 2 beg in this country when there is such a generous level of social welfare available on top of what can be secured from charities.

Gloom

I was in the Spar on Grafton Street last night when a beggar came into the shop asking for food. Came up to me and asked if I would buy him jellies so I did.

The definite fact that I had given him money for food was better than just giving money to some on the street.

TanD

Giving food to someone who needs it is way better than money. Some of these people choose to be on the streets, I'm not so keen on ignoring it, something has to be done but I don't agree with encouraging their alcoholic behaviors either.

Bottle_of_Smoke

deadhead13 wrote: »

Last month a Newstalk reporter, Henry Mckean, set out in an effort to discover if it is true or not that a large amount of money can be made from begging. He treated it like a job and begged for 8 hours a day for 5 days. I can't remember the exact amount he collected for his 40 hours, but I think it was around 70 euros.

He probably sat there doing nothing. You can make a fortune approaching people.

Bottle_of_Smoke

The Corinthian wrote: »

However, junkies still need to pay for their fix and while this is presently covered by begging (thanks to the Taliban ban on Opium production no longer being in effect, resulting in supply increase), when not how do they raise the money? Historically, violent crime is how.

Good point here. Sad fact is that not giving em money increases chances of someone haveing a dirty syringe pointed in their face

Then there are the gypsies. Have you ever wondered how they make their money in countries where people don't give to beggars? Take the #19 tram in Rome if you want to find out.

What happens there? pick pocketing or worse?

The Corinthian

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

pick pocketing or worse?

Pick pocketing mainly. The #19 is notorious for this.

Nonetheless worse happens. One thing that has been known to occur is the theft of children - babies and toddlers - generally by the female gypsies, and to what end I'd rather not speculate on.

I do not know how widespread it is, although it is reported in the Italian press - printed, rather than TV, so I'd not dismiss it as quickly - and was attempted with a the child of some friends a few years back. So it does happen.

My point is principally that if people ignore beggars, then you need to consider the consequences of this. Some would stop begging and sort themselves out, others could literally starve to death, however I suspect that in most cases they would turn to alternative means of generating income, which may be less preferable to begging.

So unless you have the balls to deal with such consequences, you're probably better off giving just enough to keep them happy.

deadhead13

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

He probably sat there doing nothing. You can make a fortune approaching people.

Last November Dermot Ahern announced reform in laws on begging following a case in the High Court where the current law was deemed to be unconstitutional. Under a new public order offence, begging will be an offence where it is accompanied by unacceptable behaviour such as harrassment, obstruction or intimidation. The maximum penalty being a 700 euro fine or one month in prison. I assume the changes have since been enacted, so I wouldn't expect a Newstalk reporter to intentionally break the law. To what extent it is being enforced or whether it would be a deterrent, I don't know.

Dades

I made up my mind that since you can't give to every begger - to just give whatever change I have to Irish ones (especially the older gents).

Not sure what that makes me but I don't like the idea that people come here to beg and not to work.

chocgirl

I never do, simply because I don't know where the money is going, I'd rather give directly to charity.

I did once give a little boy outside macDonalds a burger though, he devoured it, was only about 6 I'd say!

username123

I never do.
The main reason is because I feel it encourages begging. If there wasnt a penny to be made out of it they wouldnt do it.

As a society I dont believe we should give in to begging to 'keep the peace', the law and consequences should be enough of a deterrent against junkie crime.

Ive zero tolerance for begging.

seahorse

A person sitting minding their own business with a cup in their hand is begging. A person getting up in someone's face with a cup in their hand is not begging; they are attempting to intimidate money out of people and for this reason I don't think beggars is the appropriate term for them.

I wouldn't dream of giving this second category of people a penny and it annoys me when I see other people do it because they are encouraging them to try to intimidate money out of me too.

Darlughda

What is it about people that makes them think they can act in some kind of morally superior way just because they deign the person in question to be indulging in alcohol and drugs?

I wouldn't give them money for drink yadda yadda... while you go of with your maties to have a blow out. Hypocrite.

Loads of middle class and respectable folks of society are indulging in alcohol and drugs. Why demonise the underclass of society for this?

The truth is many, many people are self medicating and just because you are in a higher position in society to the fella on the street that makes it ok for you to say how things should be for them?

#Lucky you you don't need it! You have no idea how lucky you are not to experience this level of hell.

Lucky you if you have not experienced hell on earth. If drugs or alcohol make that experience a bit more ok to someone other than you outwith your tiny comprehension of folk, to stay alive to see through the next day, have you any idea what that is like?

It is so easy to demonise another because of alcohol and drugs. You have no idea what choices and where you would be if cards fell a bit different for you.

Hookey

Darlughda wrote: »

What is it about people that makes them think they can act in some kind of morally superior way just because they deign the person in question to be indulging in alcohol and drugs?

I wouldn't give them money for drink yadda yadda... while you go of with your maties to have a blow out. Hypocrite.

Er, I think its reasonable to be "morally superior" if I'm paying to go on the occasional bender with my own money!

Darlughda wrote: »

Loads of middle class and respectable folks of society are indulging in alcohol and drugs. Why demonise the underclass of society for this?

See above.

Darlughda wrote: »

The truth is many, many people are self medicating and just because you are in a higher position in society to the fella on the street that makes it ok for you to say how things should be for them?

#Lucky you you don't need it! You have no idea how lucky you are not to experience this level of hell.

Lucky you if you have not experienced hell on earth. If drugs or alcohol make that experience a bit more ok to someone other than you outwith your tiny comprehension of folk, to stay alive to see through the next day, have you any idea what that is like?

It is so easy to demonise another because of alcohol and drugs. You have no idea what choices and where you would be if cards fell a bit different for you.

So the way to deal with people "experiencing this level of Hell" is to give them money to reinforce their habit is it? That makes loads of sense. If you're bothered by the plight of junkies on the LUAS, give money to an appropriate charity, don't give them money for their next fix.

miec

What is it about people that makes them think they can act in some kind of morally superior way just because they deign the person in question to be indulging in alcohol and drugs?

I wouldn't give them money for drink yadda yadda... while you go of with your maties to have a blow out. Hypocrite.

Loads of middle class and respectable folks of society are indulging in alcohol and drugs. Why demonise the underclass of society for this?

The truth is many, many people are self medicating and just because you are in a higher position in society to the fella on the street that makes it ok for you to say how things should be for them?

#Lucky you you don't need it! You have no idea how lucky you are not to experience this level of hell.

Lucky you if you have not experienced hell on earth. If drugs or alcohol make that experience a bit more ok to someone other than you outwith your tiny comprehension of folk, to stay alive to see through the next day, have you any idea what that is like?

It is so easy to demonise another because of alcohol and drugs. You have no idea what choices and where you would be if cards fell a bit different for you.

Whilst I think the above is highly emotive, in a sense this poster has a point. If you choose to give money to someone you do not have the right to tell them how to spend it. Those of you who don't give because you worry about them spending it on drink or drugs do right not to give those who beg any money as your attitude to it is highly patronising, I used to think similar until I realised who am I to dictate how that person spends the money if I am giving it as a gift.

I give money to people when I want to give it, it is as simple as that, if they are a con artist then so be it, but they could equally be a genuinely homeless person but I have no way of truly knowing so I work on the assumption that they are genuinely homeless. I know I cannot give money to everyone, and when I do give my method is random and I don't feel guilty when I don't give because maybe I haven't enough or I don't feel like it but I wouldn't dream of telling that person how they should spend that money.

On an aside note, it is very, very easy to get homeless, it happened to me and I was lucky because it was temporary but the shame inherent in it, the fear etc is awful. Also most services such as hostels, emergency accommodation, etc are stretched to capacity as it, espically during recession times and you can't get welfare if you don't have an address, its as simple as that. Maybe some people choose life on the streets, but that is usually those who have been on them a long time and cannot see themselves in another situation but every single one of them did not willing choose to be on the streets in the first place. Some were kicked out of their family home, some got into drugs (and lets be honest who really wants to be a drug addict) these things are often over determined, and others lose their jobs, then their homes or marriages break up, etc.

disneymum

A cruel but funny one for ye,

A heard a young fella in Cork City the other day responding to a beggar with a dog on a rope asking for money for food because he was starving, the young fella replied

'If you were that hungry you'd eat the dog first.'

I have to say I laughed the whole way down Pana!:D:D

(I am now waiting for all the animal lovers to slate me! I love animals too so please don't!)

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Eve_Dublin

miec wrote: »

I give money to people when I want to give it, it is as simple as that, if they are a con artist then so be it, but they could equally be a genuinely homeless person but I have no way of truly knowing so I work on the assumption that they are genuinely homeless. I know I cannot give money to everyone, and when I do give my method is random and I don't feel guilty when I don't give because maybe I haven't enough or I don't feel like it but I wouldn't dream of telling that person how they should spend that money

I'd say there are more genuine cases than not and like yourself miec, I'd give randomly depending on my mood, how much money I had, the weather, my gut instinct and sometimes I'd just get them a sarnie and a cup of tea.

Trying your best to be a nice person and giving people the benefit of the doubt makes life so much easier.

For those in here who despise beggars and believe they deserve a "kick up the arse", get a reality check, it could easily happen to you and don't think it couldn't. I'm from a decent background and my brother was homeless for a short time.....too proud to admit he was in serious financial debt, had lost his job and broke up with his ex. My dad's cousin was a wealthy hotel owner in the 80's, marriage broke up, he had a nervous break-down and was last spotted begging in London. These stories are too close to home for me to be as cynical as some of you.

Eve_Dublin

chocgirl wrote: »

I never do, simply because I don't know where the money is going, I'd rather give directly to charity.

I did once give a little boy outside macDonalds a burger though, he devoured it, was only about 6 I'd say!

Most charities are businesses. Don't be so naive in believing most of the money you give to them gets to the problem.

miec

Most charities are businesses. Don't be so naive in believing most of the money you give to them gets to the problem.

+ 1

walshb

metrovelvet wrote: »

I dont know. I dont give to beggars because it would seem unfair that I give to one and not to all of them. So I give to none of them. But I have to say the seeing them in the winter really gets to me. It is very very wrong.

The giving of money can be futile, or it can be beneficial depending on what it is spent on.

What I find very difficult is to walk by a person who is obviously cold, lonely and hungry.
You could go off to a nearby shop and get the man or woman a nice warm cup of soup, a sandwich or something that will alleviate the problem for that instance in time.

Maybe even leave a sum behind the counter and allow the person to go in an out
until the tab runs out. Would do him or here for a while

Amalgam

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Although I did once give 5 euro to a guy who asked me for money for alcohol. I admired his honesty.

Same, an old bloke with a hacking cough (it was freezing), very clearly stated that he'd spend the money on cigarettes. I bought him the cigarettes. He was amused at having to describe the cigarette brand and pack to me. (I don't smoke)

Gonzales

Darlughda wrote: »

What is it about people that makes them think they can act in some kind of morally superior way just because they deign the person in question to be indulging in alcohol and drugs?

I wouldn't give them money for drink yadda yadda... while you go of with your maties to have a blow out. Hypocrite.

Loads of middle class and respectable folks of society are indulging in alcohol and drugs. Why demonise the underclass of society for this?

The truth is many, many people are self medicating and just because you are in a higher position in society to the fella on the street that makes it ok for you to say how things should be for them?

#Lucky you you don't need it! You have no idea how lucky you are not to experience this level of hell.

Lucky you if you have not experienced hell on earth. If drugs or alcohol make that experience a bit more ok to someone other than you outwith your tiny comprehension of folk, to stay alive to see through the next day, have you any idea what that is like?

It is so easy to demonise another because of alcohol and drugs. You have no idea what choices and where you would be if cards fell a bit different for you.

Luxury vs. Necessity.
First things first, food, water , shelter, when you get that sorted then you can think about your luxuries.
Simple as that.

Darlughda

The reasons how and why a person can end up homeless can be complicated, many have been in and out of care while growing up, a huge proportion are suffering from mental health issues and addiction problems are massive.

I am not advocating funding a person's addiction problem, just pointing out how odious it is to use alcholism or drug addiction as an excuse to moralize about a person or justify treating them like scum of society.

I once worked with a major housing and homelessness charity -the administration budget was £1m per year which was for the rent of the head offices, salaries, campaigns and fundraising projects etc. These are costs that have to be paid by any charity, particularly the big ones competing with other charities.

http://www.mqi.ie/page.php?id=91 I saw this today, its the merchants quay project where the money at least is going directly to provide food and hot showers.

On the rare occasion that I do give money to someone on the street, I don't assume I have some superior right to demand they don't spend it on alcohol. Of course I would prefer if it was going towards shelter for the night, but if a person is suffering I just hope they get whatever they need to get them through the night.