Should the Bishop stay or go?

Balagan

It says it in the title.

Diarmuid Martin, the Archbishop of Dublin, said that Donal Murray, Bishop of Limerick, should look to his conscience to determine his response to the the findings about him in the Murphy Report.

Donal Murray says it is up to the church and the people.

So, what do the people think?

Should he stay or should he go?

Kess73

Personally I think it is quite simple. If he had any involvement in what was done, or he had any active part in covering it up, then he should not only be forced to step down, he should be charged and sentenced in relation to any involvement he had.

This crap of it being left to a person's own conscience is a joke.

If an ordinary layperson was involved in child abuse or involved in the covering up of child abuse, would they be able to say that it is a matter of their own conscience?


My view on any gardai or any non clergy that were/are involved in cover ups is the same. Full weight of the law should apply as they were aiding child abuse.

The Bull O'Shea

If he in any way hindered the arrest of a paedophile priest then yes he should go and legal proceedings should be taken against him

Although our justice system hates to imprison Clergy, politicians or bankers

RonMexico

He shouldn't even be given a choice. Fire him and investigate his actions. The same goes for the others.

ninty9er

I always found him to be okay when I came across him a few times, however perverting the course of justice is a serious crime. I'd imagine the Archbishop should send reccomendations to the Pope to excommunicate all clergy involved in such behaviour, given the position of trust and how it was betrayed.

firesidechat

Why bother sending recromdations to the pope?
The vatican refused to answer the queries put to them by the investigating commission....
If you had a dog that was nice and friendly towards people and one day he bit someone, Would you give him a second chance?
I use the word dog here , because they acted like animals.
Close the door on the catholic church and move on ......

celliman

part and parcel of a cover up,he should go now

Aidric

I think its quite clear cut. He was privy to information and didn't act on it. His position is untenable.

Liam Byrne

Have ye not gotten it into ye'r heads yet, lads ?

This is Ireland. If you have power, status and money then you're not held accountable for your actions, not fired or jailed, and the taxpayer has to bail you out.

Never forget that thanks to FF, you're not only letting these scum off scot-free, without being jailed; you're also paying the compensation to their victims.

johnmolloy554

ninty9er wrote: »

I always found him to be okay when I came across him a few times....

You would want to be careful how you phrase things....:D

Paulegend

because of him a child got a willy in their arse...................

sorry that sounds bad butt it isnt speculation or hearsay
its wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PaddyThai

The Irish Catholic population are also guilty.
They will continue to show their support for the church by going to mass today. They will continue to get their kids baptized, confirmed, married and buried via the church.
If no one supported the church the church would disappear.

Kess73

PaddyThai wrote: »

The Irish Catholic population are also guilty.
They will continue to show their support for the church by going to mass today. They will continue to get their kids baptized, confirmed, married and buried via the church.
If no one supported the church the church would disappear.

I have no love for the Catholic church, and on a personal level I disagree strongly with a large amount of what they represent and say, but there are a lot of people who have received genuine help and peace of mind from their faith, and there are a lot of church representatives who have done a lot of good also, and who have never been involved in doing, or covering up, the horrific actions that a number of their order did.

I think the church is it's own worst enemy in these matters by not acting fast against all that have been found to be involved in abuse.

If the church kicked them out, named and shamed them, then left them to be charged by the law, then the church would gain a lot of respect from it's followers and from non followers like myself.

As it is now, by not acting and only coming out with waffle, they are letting the names of their good members get tarred by the actions of the evil sickos within their ranks.

zuroph

has anyone a link to the actual mention of him in the report please? I hear they say his actions (or lack of) were inexcusable, I'd like to know what exactly he did.

Dumdum McCarthy

I dont have a link but there was a statement read out at masses in limerick dioseces today explaining the bishops actions ,i dont go to mass so i cant quote what it said.Somebody who does go might have the correct quotes?

Dumdum McCarthy

Bishop responds to criticism in abuse report

Sunday, 29 November 2009 11:48
Bishop of Limerick Dr Donal Murray has said the question of whether he should resign over his handling of allegations into clerical child abuse depends on whether his presence in the diocese is a help or a hindrance.
He told a congregation in Limerick city this morning that he would be guided on that matter by the priests and people of the diocese.
The Commission of Investigation report into clerical abuse in the Archdiocese of Dublin described Dr Murray's response to an allegation of abuse as inexcusable, and criticised his handling of other allegations.
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Dr Murray said that at no time did he receive an allegation of sexual abuse and fail to take it seriously or attempt to cover it up.
He said he could honestly say that in one case his inability to get to the full truth was due to a lack of skill and experience and was not the result of any lack of effort on his part. He said this was no consolation to the children who were abused and that he would remain eternally sorry and apologetic to anyone whose suffering he might have prevented.
Bishop of Dromore Dr John McAreavey, speaking on BBC Radio Ulster's Sunday Sequence programme, said he himself would step down if he lacked credibilty.

Statements read at masses across Ireland

ninty9er

Paulegend wrote: »

because of him a child got a willy in their arse...................

sorry that sounds bad butt it isnt speculation or hearsay
its wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't know the report says that, but if it does, he should go. However, the issue of whether he did nothing, or did something should be the basis of the decision.

As for the Pope; this man is essentially the CEO of the Bishop's company, if we want a senior manager gone, then that is the level the compalint should go to. The Pope can actually get rid of him, all we can do is talk.

banie01

He most certainly should go!
Regardless of whether or not he 'delibrately' covered up or failed to act on an accusation.

By his own admission his failings to get to the 'truth' of the matter were down to a lack of skill and training!! He is a priest! Not an investigator! Did he not see the problem there? Or indeed the conflict of interest?

As a leader amongst the church( fact any group of people) Is not one of the skills of a leader to recognise their shortcomings and gaps in their knowledge and to seek counsel from people with experience in those situations?

Did our Bishop act in this manner? NO
Did our Bishop take the step of informing the Gardai or the health boards of the accussations?NO
He showed no heart for leadership then and by dint of his inaction he allowed untold suffering to continue....
Even now he leaves the moral decision to his Priests and Diocese, rather than make a decision!

Would every sane minded and moral person agree that when an accusation like that is made, that rather than launching a solo investigation ala Fr Dowling(which faltered when he wasn't 'skilled' enough to ferret out the evidence).....
That the information should be passed on to the relevant authorities?

Apart from the fact that Gardai ignored and buried complaints from Lay People surely an accusation from the hierarchy of the church would have forced a more thorough investigation by someone with more investigative skills than the 'good' Bishop???
But aside from his stature in the Church and the catholic view of right and wrong.
Isn't reporting of this kind of depravity the act one would expect of any morally upstanding person?
What counsel would he offer to a victim who told him it was they're Uncle abusing them? Rather than a Priest?
By not reporting the accusation and launching his own attempt at an investigation He most certainly did cover up the accusation!?
A lie of ommision is still a lie! And by omitting to make a report he LIED!
Isn't accepting his culpability and resigning his position the least he can do?
GO NOW

wylo

Im actually lost as to why these people arent being brought to court. Especially the guys who actually covered it up. Fair enough the others should just resign . Its shocking he hasnt resigned yet, its a disgrace. The only good thats coming out of all this is that its showing that rotten organisation that is the catholic church for what it really is.

Liam Byrne

Dumdum McCarthy wrote: »

Dr Murray said that at no time did he receive an allegation of sexual abuse and fail to take it seriously or attempt to cover it up.

Interesting 2 out of 4, there.....

Any chance of him including "or move a priest on from a diocese where he was abusing to allow him ruin someone else's life" or "fail to report it to the relevant authorities so that it could be dealt with as if it were any other scumbag".

If he can answer the same to all 4, then he can stay.

If not, he should go, and should be jailed for collusion and obstruction of justice.

osarusan

wylo wrote: »

Im actually lost as to why these people arent being brought to court.

Agreed.

The attitude seems to be that discipline is a matter for the church.

But are we not talking about obstruction of justice? Without really knowing the law, surely these bishops are guilty of this, unless it is claimed (and I think some did claim) that they didn't realise it was a crime.

Paulegend

from breakingnews.ie

27/11/2009 - 16:24:30
The Garda Commissioner Fachtna Murphy has ordered an examination into the findings of the Murphy report on clerical sex abuse in the Dublin Archdiocese.

The report published yesterday found widespread evidence of a cover-up by the Catholic Church, the State and Gardai.

This new investigation directed by Commissioner Murphy will determine if criminal charges should be brought against any of those who covered up.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/garda-commissioner-order-probe-after-clerical-abuse-report-436076.html#ixzz0YJLeqhBz

i mean whats the point when the whole country is in on it. its a joke and a disgrace

Henry Ford III

He should be kicked out of town.

oh well

There shouldn't be a need to fire him, he should stand up and behave in the honourable way and resign. But that'll never happen cos the church wouldn't know how to behave in an honourable way if it came up and slapped them in the face.

Good old Ireland lets everyone off the hook - bankers, politicians, clergy.

In the mid 1980s Dublin archdiocese enquired about insurance cover for possible compensation claims against priests. Cover was put in place since 1987 for this. And yet the church claims it didn't know anything about allegations until the 1990s !!!!!!!!!

Anyone who knew anything at all and that includes the gardai, should resign and be fully investigated.

Berty

I think people should bear in mind the question of whether or not he should step down or not is one thing.

You should not take your opinions and use these as a stick to beat the catholic church or your local priest.

Your local priest is most likely a very religious person who see's his and your church as a calling in his life and anything that any beast has done to a child should not be borne on the shoulders of your local priest.

My only opinion on the subject is that IF he in any way impeeded any investigation and aided in moving/hiding priests away from dealing with their actions then he should, not only step down, he should be brought before a court and stand accused for his actions.

Kess73

Berty wrote: »

I think people should bear in mind the question of whether or not he should step down or not is one thing.

You should not take your opinions and use these as a stick to beat the catholic church or your local priest.

Your local priest is most likely a very religious person who see's his and your church as a calling in his life and anything that any beast has done to a child should not be borne on the shoulders of your local priest.

My only opinion on the subject is that IF he in any way impeeded any investigation and aided in moving/hiding priests away from dealing with their actions then he should, not only step down, he should be brought before a court and stand accused for his actions.

I agree that the whole church should not be tarred and feathered by the actions of a smaller number, but, and it is a big but, if that church is not willing to stand up and show that it will not stand for the actions of the sickos, and if that church allows the sickos and those that aided the sickos to decide for themselves if they stay or go, then it is very difficult to see how the church can see itself as having any relevance, and it could no longer be expected to be taken seriously on any matter when it is showing itself as being corrupt and immoral at it's higher levels.

It must be a testing time for the good members of that church who have worked hard, and done god, only to see the most evil of crimes and actions being committed and covered up by the organisation that they have committed their lives to.


Going by the comments that Murray (I am not giving him his title anymore because I think he does not deserve it) made this week, it is very clear that he did know about cases of abuse, and that some cases were reported directly to him. His excuse of not having the skill or experience to deal with the cases is just a cop out. He knew there was abuse going on, it is then a simple case of bringing in the police and removing the abuser from the church and from being able to harm children again.

He also made a comment that the last case that was reported to him was five years before he came to Limerick , and that once he came to Limerick he was not able to chase it up.

Which basically means the abuse was reported to him in 1991, and he came to Limerick in 1996, so he did nothing for the years inbetween.

Any normal person with a shred of decency would be trying to protect the children in these cases, and not staying quiet on it.

The impression I get is that if these reports had never come to light, then Murray and the others would have happily stayed quiet and to hell with the abused.

There also seems to be a feeling amongst a lot of people that the abuse was in the 1940's, 1950's, 1960's and 1970's. The fact that Murray has come out and said that a case was reported to him in 1991 shows just how recent this abuse is, and who knows how many other cases happened since that date.

RonMexico

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZBPu7jJbJU

tinsop

I think he should resign as soon as possible.My daughter is being confirmed in June and I do not want her confirmed by HIM.:mad: When he does go will his replacement be investigated before been given the position?

tommy249

tinsop wrote: »

I think he should resign as soon as possible.My daughter is being confirmed in June and I do not want her confirmed by HIM.:mad: When he does go will his replacement be investigated before been given the position?

So you are saying that EVERY single clergy man should be investigated now if they are going to make bishop despite the fact that most are decent hard working human beings. Hardly seems fair. Talk about painting everyone with the same brush.

tinsop

As my reply said will HIS replacement as in the person that replaces him be well checked out.Once the **** hits the fan they usually have an idea who will be up next so it wont be a que of priests...And yes there are a few hard working, genuine priests around not all are perverts or brushing problems under the carpet.

Raiser

Balagan wrote: »

Should he stay or should he go?

Was the option to hang, draw and quarter him and publicly display his Holy little Corpse left out accidentally?

- Although why stop with him.

getz

a member of a club who preaches the christian way and morals,yet does not practice them themselves,even if he leaves,he will still keep a job,in a backword part of the world

TheSpecialOne

Even if he didnt do anything wrong maybe its time to go,because this controversy will forever follow him wherever he goes and a lot of people will not forget these accusations...and if they are true then he should obviously depart....I hate the secrecy the church use's and i fear they are hiding even more perverts and other crimes.

billy the squid

Limerick Leader scrubbed their poll on whether the bishop should resign or not

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/Why-our-poll-on-Bishop.5873228.jp

Reasoning behind the decision to pull the poll.

this calls for a poll don't you think

ninty9er

Yesterday's Examiner seemed to specifically say that since he has been Bishop of Limerick every accusation made has been referred to both the HSE and Gardaí. One would assume this is not something he took up only when he became Bishop of Limerick, so if he reported the abuses, but nothing was done, it's not exactly his fault is it?

I haven't voted yet as I haven't seen all the facts.

Balagan

billy the squid wrote: »

Limerick Leader scrubbed their poll on whether the bishop should resign or not

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/Why-our-poll-on-Bishop.5873228.jp

Reasoning behind the decision to pull the poll.

this calls for a poll don't you think

I am sorry to see that a moderator added a poll to this thread today. While I started the thread, it is, of course, not mine, but I put no trust in polls and instead put much store by the comments, when they are made and how they are made.

wylo

I think a poll is good idea, it will give a genuine summarized reflection on how everyone on the Limerick forum feels about this.

--amadeus--

ninty9er wrote: »

Yesterday's Examiner seemed to specifically say that since he has been Bishop of Limerick every accusation made has been referred to both the HSE and Gardaí. One would assume this is not something he took up only when he became Bishop of Limerick, so if he reported the abuses, but nothing was done, it's not exactly his fault is it?

I haven't voted yet as I haven't seen all the facts.

I've bolded the relevant part of your post.

Some clarity on exactly what the report says would be good but based on the media coverage his position must be untenable and criminal charges must be a possibility.

Put it another way, if you had someone working for you who was exposed in media reports as sheltering people who had stolen cash from thier employer would you leave them in charge of managing money, or managing the people who manage money? Or would you shuffle them off on leave until a proper investigation could be made?

And if the investigation showed that they had sheltered criminals while you employed them would you continue to employ them?

(hypothetical moral question, I know you'd probably end up in an Employment Tribunal if you did sack them)

pathway33

zuroph wrote: »

has anyone a link to the actual mention of him in the report please? I hear they say his actions (or lack of) were inexcusable, I'd like to know what exactly he did.

I can't link it but the entire report is in pdf format online. I got it from the rte website. I just did 'Control F' 'murray' to find every mention of him

mcmoustache

Let the DPP and the Gárdaí sort it out. No, seripously, it's a straight-forward justice matter. Crimes were committed and some people were accessories(correct me if that's not the word I'm looking for) to it by covering up or obstructing the course of justice.

Rio 2016

How come all the media attention is centred around Donal Murray. When we should be focusing our attentions on crucifying the perverts responsible for the sh*te that has been committed.

Once that has been taken care of then we can concentrate on what the bishop did or did not do.

duff123

It seems to me the leaders of the church and all other bishops are delighted with Donal Murray taking the flack for the whole report. They all seem to be happy once they are out of the spotlight.

--amadeus--

tommy249 wrote: »

So you are saying that EVERY single clergy man should be investigated now if they are going to make bishop despite the fact that most are decent hard working human beings. Hardly seems fair. Talk about painting everyone with the same brush.

Anyone working with children goes through a Gardai clearance. Why should clergy be any different. In fact if you use criminal profiling it would seem that clergy *should* be under significantly closer scrutiny than those in any other job.

times'a'wastin

wylo wrote: »

Im actually lost as to why these people arent being brought to court. Especially the guys who actually covered it up. Fair enough the others should just resign . Its shocking he hasnt resigned yet, its a disgrace. The only good thats coming out of all this is that its showing that rotten organisation that is the catholic church for what it really is.

The church get away with so much in this country it is unbelievable :mad:

I think he should be ashamed of himself and leave straight away

catchup

The Murray Report only deals with the Dublin Archdiocese. Is there any reason to believe there isnt also a similar number of cover-ups perpetrated over the years in the Limerick Diocese? When will the abused in this diocese get the opportunity to have their say?

pathway33

catchup wrote: »

The Murray Report only deals with the Dublin Archdiocese. Is there any reason to believe there isnt also a similar number of cover-ups perpetrated over the years in the Limerick Diocese? When will the abused in this diocese get the opportunity to have their say?

After the report came out last week a bishop said there should be no more investigations into the rest of the country because it was the same pattern. Can you believe that? He's admitted there were cover ups in other counties and nothing should be done!!!

Why should it be up to the bishops to decide which diocese get investigated. The state has to take control

Run_to_da_hills

Out with him and any others that were involved in this appalling cover up atrocity.!

After this report no pastor or Christian leader should ever speak highly of the Catholic Church because It stinks with the rot of Hell.

The fact that the Vatican has snubbed this whole Murphy report goes to prove that the Pope and his followers are only the representatives of Satan!

The Roman Catholic Church is nothing more than an evil pagan cult that is dressed up in words and names that are found in the Bible.

Rio 2016

There is only one sure thing surrounding the whole controversy and that is the Catholic Church is fu**ed. It may take 5,10, 15 , 20 years but eventually the Church will fold up.

This is a shame as there are so many good, honest and caring people in the Church but how can anyone distinguish these people from the perverted ***** who have been allowed to continue abusing innocent young children for years and those who facilitated the abuse.

Would anyone agree with me that the daeth penalty is the only suitable punishment for these criminals.

Run_to_da_hills

Rio 2016 wrote: »

There is only one sure thing surrounding the whole controversy and that is the Catholic Church is fu**ed. It may take 5,10, 15 , 20 years but eventually the Church will fold up.

This is a shame as there are so many good, honest and caring people in the Church but how can anyone distinguish these people from the perverted ***** who have been allowed to continue abusing innocent young children for years and those who facilitated the abuse.

Would anyone agree with me that the daeth penalty is the only suitable punishment for these criminals.

It is not a shame, the day of reckoning has finally come, the chickens have come home to roost. Those good, honest and caring people will in time discover that the Roman Catholic Church is but no church at all but is a heathen organization. There are plenty of other denomonations within the country besides the Catholic Church.

RonMexico

I see the Bishop wants to think about this for a month and has asked people to pray for him.

One of two things:

1: He has learnt nothing from all of this and is showing the same indecision and hesitation to act that resulted in him being in the Murphy Report.

2: He is a cute whore and thinks that this will all blow over.


RESIGN NOW!!:mad:

ninty9er

I've read all sections in the report which refer to Bishop Murray, and while his handling wasn't the best, there is no mention that child abuse was ever reported to him while he was Auxilliary Bishop, and where "suspicions" were brought to his attention that he raised them with the Archbishop and the Monsignor involved.

He also seems to have been quite critical of the Archdiocese himself when interviewed by the Murphy Commission.

While his handling might not be what civil society would deem appropriate, he was under the direction of an Archbishop and Canon Law. It's not an excuse, because where suspicions were raised they were investigated and reports made to superiors, it's just unfortunate for him that he is where the buck stops as the rest of these people are dead and buried, but deserve the main brunt of the public backlash.

Yes/No decisions are binary, but I would not be 100%, or anywhere close in favour of him staying as he has not taken decisions in the interests of civil justice at all times, but rather referred them to his superiors to make., but neither do I think it is fair that the brunt of this report has fallen on him.