How highly rated is Jonah Lomu?

asdfgh86

For the casual supporter of Rugby like me, Jonah Lomu occupies the space reserved for Maradona, Pele and Zidane in football. He is seen by those with a passing interest in game as the Greatest of all time. But how do those who are very knowledgeable about Rugby rate him? Clearly he was brilliant but would you see him as the Greatest of all time, as one of the greatest of all time or as simply a very good flair player who looks better in Youtube compilations then he was in real life. (I'm talking about him in the past tense because although I know he has made a comeback in the Federale 1, his main career at the top has finished largely due to Kidney problems

profitius

He looked great running through 12 stone wingers. Those days NZ were professionals long because other countries.


A few years later Lomu got found out. Teams kept kicking the ball in behind him and he wasn't the quickest to turn and he couldn't kick the ball.


Basically I see him as being a one trick pony with alot of weaknesses. It could be argued that it was a great trick (which it was) but if we're looking at his overall game then yeah he is overrated.

Risteard

I wouldn't necessarily agree that he was a one trick pony, but there's no doubt that had he come on the scene now as opposed to roughly 15 years ago, then he wouldn't have had nearly the same impact.

He was essentially the first really big winger that could run fast. However these days, since professionalism has really taken off, there are many big wingers such as Banahan and Donguy. They wouldn't be as good as Lomu but he wouldn't be able to run through them and if he tried to run around them, defences are so good these days that he'd be tackled quickly.

It's kind of hard to compare since there is a massive difference between the amateur game and early days of professionalism and what it is now. Defences are so much tighter that it's harder for players like Lomu and Specifically Christian Cullen who I rate as better than Lomu to make the same offensive impact as they did a few years ago.

But yeah, for what he did at his time of playing, then he would be highly rated by me. He was really the first 'Superstar' of rugby.

Spore

Risteard wrote: »

there are many big wingers such as Banahan and Donguy.

I wouldn't insult the guy by mentioning him in same breath as Banahan!

Lomu was the first rugby superstar. Before the 95 world cup rugby was just a passing interest of mine. Watching him mince the English back line single handedly made me sit up and pay attention. He was a one-of-a-kind and there was plenty of young impressionable kids like me at the time that started playing on the back of seeing the 'Freak' in action!

Risteard

Spore wrote: »

I wouldn't insult the guy by mentioning him in same breath as Banahan!

Lomu was the first rugby superstar. Before the 95 world cup rugby was just a passing interest of mine. Watching him mince the English back line single handedly made me sit up and pay attention. He was a one-of-a-kind and there was plenty of young impressionable kids like me at the time that started playing on the back of seeing the 'Freak' in action!

I was just pointing out the similarity in size, I wouldn't consider comparing Lomu to Banahan.

Spore

t'was all in jest!

anonymous_joe

Actually one comparison with Pelé does stand up:

Pelé was massive. He was incredibly strong, and could run a 10 second 100 metres. Players in that era were nowhere near as fit/fast/strong in the 50s 60s and 70s as they are nowadays.

If Pelé was playing today, he'd probably still be the world's best, but not to the same degree.

Lomu's also similar in that he was a physical freak. Brian Moore the England hooker of the late 80s early 90s was only 13 stone or so. Players were utterly tiny. Lads I was in school with would be much stronger and tougher than international rugby players of a generation ago, which is scary.

Lomu benefitted from the perfect conditions to have blossomed. He'd be another Pierre Spies were he playing today.

bleg

Kidney problems? Any non munster player would know all about that.

hardCopy

Probably not THE greatest but for me he's right up there. An absolute monster and I'll always be glad that I saw him in Lansdowne (although my highlight of that game was when Shaggy stopped him dead)

Pisco Sour

People go on about how other players are fitter and stronger and faster and bigger now etc, but who's to say that if Lomu was playing now that he also wouldnt be fitter, stronger, faster and bigger!!

He was an outstanding winger, and would go down as one of the all time greats certainly in his position. Very hard to compare Fly Halves to Wingers to Locks etc though!

gcgirl

bleg wrote: »

Kidney problems? Any non munster player would know all about that.

Hehe lol

razorblunt

BOD isn't up to his usual standard.

Steyne hasn't been rolling away a few times now, Owens still hasn't spotted it.

GiftofGab

04072511 wrote: »

People go on about how other players are fitter and stronger and faster and bigger now etc, but who's to say that if Lomu was playing now that he also wouldnt be fitter, stronger, faster and bigger!!

He was an outstanding winger, and would go down as one of the all time greats certainly in his position. Very hard to compare Fly Halves to Wingers to Locks etc though!

Good point. Jonah Lomu was pure raw talent. Made an immediate impact when he started playing rugby. People seem to forget that he was suffering a massive injury during that world cup. I think if he grew up in todays rugby era he could well work on his weaknesses.

Hard to say if he is THE best in his position of all time but he certainly would not be out of the top 3.

justsomebloke

04072511 wrote: »

People go on about how other players are fitter and stronger and faster and bigger now etc, but who's to say that if Lomu was playing now that he also wouldnt be fitter, stronger, faster and bigger!!

I have to agree with this, yes if he was playing now a days the gulf between himself and others wouldn't be as bad but chances are he would bigger stronger and faster then he was when he was playing and would of still stood out as a freak

Aidric

A human battering ram, doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as the games great players. His notoriety came from the fact that he was freak like in terms of his size.

asdfgh86

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Actually one comparison with Pelé does stand up:

Pelé was massive.

Do you mean massive as in size or as in global fame? Because Pele is only about 5ft 8.

Max Power1

one of the all time greats of the game tbh. If you take any player in rugby from the past that is revered as great - he probably wouldnt have made as big an impact these days, as he would be too small, slow, etc as the game has changed massivevly in the last 15 years.

Pisco Sour

Max Power1 wrote: »

one of the all time greats of the game tbh. If you take any player in rugby from the past that is revered as great - he probably wouldnt have made as big an impact these days, as he would be too small, slow, etc as the game has changed massivevly in the last 15 years.

Any of the greats from the amateur era would have been just as great in the pro era. They would also be bigger and faster now and so their greater talent would still shine.

irishbucsfan

04072511 wrote: »

Any of the greats from the amateur era would have been just as great in the pro era. They would also be bigger and faster now and so their greater talent would still shine.

Thats impossible to say. We can't presume that any of those players would have the dedication that it takes to become a great professional these days, which was far more than back in the days of Willie John etc. For example in those days a player such as Fionn Carr or Johnne Murphy would be a class act on the wing, and probably a mainstay in the international team, due to their natural pace, whereas a player such a Ian Dowling would have found it hard to make a smaller club team.

Its pointless comparing the greats of the amateur game to the greats of the modern game, I have bags of respect for what they were, in the same way I have tons of respect for what our guys are.


Jonah Lomu will always be remembered because he changed the way the game was played. He was one of the first backs who was able to "hit like a forward" and from then on we're seen some truly massive backs emerge. He may not have been the complete winger in this modern game, but he was the most valuable international player in his prime.

anonymous_joe

asdfgh86 wrote: »

Do you mean massive as in size or as in global fame? Because Pele is only about 5ft 8.

As in he was a tank.

He was really really strong and powerful. Had a very direct style of running.

CatFromHue

its funny how we think of lomu.

in the 99 worldcup in the semi againt france he scored a try when the frnech nearly ran away from him but the was caught out a few times when the french kicked the ball behind him and made him turn.

we have to remember when thinking about lomu that he came n the scene in the 95 world cup as an 18 year old.
yeah he was freak but wow was it amaxing watching him run with the ball in that tournament.

lomu at his full fitness against his contempories with the ball in hand was awesome.

Hill Man

Lomu seems to be a lovely person. It must be remembered that he played international rugby even after a kidney transplant. This makes him a legend in my eyes.

Chucky the tree

18st+ and under 11seconds in the 100m, how many of todays current players can claim that? Anyone who thinks he wouldn't still have a huge impact if he was to appear in todays game is crazy. Not only was lomu huge, but he had very good acceleration and it didn't take him long to get into his stride.

NotWormBoy

Back then, he was so good at what he did, it was almost an illegal advantage having him on your team, as I heard someone describe him as before. Sure he couldn't do some things well, but what he could do ...

newmills

Have to say i had the privilege of seeing the great man play live in sydney 9 years ago (can't remember if it was called super 14 back then).
I used to go down to watch the new south wales warratahs when they played at home...it was a testament to lomu's pulling power that the stadium was full the night he played as opposed to the 20,000 that turned out a week before for the golden cats game.
Everyone had come to watch lomu...pity he was red carded about 25 mins in to the game..ah happy memories!!

amacachi

Lomu was a player designed for Rugby League and caught the Union players out before they upped their game.
How good was he? I didn't follow Rugby all that much back then but he was memorable which is more than I can say about anyone else around that time for me.

handsomecake

lomu gets a lot of the casual fans attention and fair enough he was freakish and did the brand of rugby no harm at all.
if you boil it down to brass tacks though- he couldnt kick,he could tackle but often went too high( was lazy to go low) or was out of position.
he was also known to throw howlers of passes.he will always be remembered as one of the greats,but he wasnt one of the greatest exponents of the game in all its facets.all his qualities were pysical ,speed and strength.

the best player from that era and i think the best player ive ever seen play (im 26) was christian cullen. a small man who could bench press as much as the front rowers,scored tries from behind his own dead ball line and literally made magic happen when ever he hit the line.if he didnt score-someone else often did.
cullen is one player who i feel at his peak would have no problems with the rigours of rugby in 2011.he ran lines like no other. had a change of direction at pace without breaking stride and tackled around the bootlaces with aplomb. he was also rock hard in upper body tackles too. his career was cut short by injury and all black backroom politics (john mitchell )




of the current crop 3 players stand out for me as possibly eclipsing him
richie mccaw

daniel carter

james o connor..............the reason i pick him is he is rugby's fabregas...........the amount of games he could potentially play and amount of points he could potentially amass will have him right up there.27 caps and 119 test points (10 tries) so far at 20 years of age.

handsomecake

slothrop wrote: »

nandro-lone la la la la nandro-lone

you saying he was a doper?

JustinDee

profitius wrote: »

A few years later Lomu got found out. Teams kept kicking the ball in behind him and he wasn't the quickest to turn and he couldn't kick the ball

This is actually a myth, much like the bullsh about Lomu being a poached Tongan/Islander or allegedly not being able to tackle.
Any winger can be 'found out' with the ball kicked back over their head.

Lomu is probably the biggest name ever to hit rugby union. People in non-rugby following countries even know who he is. He was an absolute one-off, never being matched since. Like Tana Umaga, he actually started out playing rugby league. He would have been sensational in that sport too. Thats how good he was.

As for the hearsay about being juiced-up in another post, shame, shame. Typically begrudging.

JustinDee

04072511 wrote: »

Any of the greats from the amateur era would have been just as great in the pro era. They would also be bigger and faster now and so their greater talent would still shine.

Lomu is not really from the amateur era. He played almost all of his international rugby as a professional.

skregs

Lomu was muck. All he could do was run 100m in under 11 seconds, physically outperform front rowers and score tons of tries.

Ciaran-Irl

skregs wrote: »

Lomu was muck. All he could do was run 100m in under 11 seconds, physically outperform front rowers and score tons of tries.

:pac:

Exactly.

The biggest reason he will be a legend forever, while the likes of Christian Cullen won't, is nothing to do with the respective abilities of the two, but because Jonah had a massive impact on the profile of the game. He attracted tons of people to the sport. No other single player has had such an impact on the sport globally. O'Driscoll did it for rugby in Ireland, Wilkenson did it for rugby in England, but nobody else had such a global impact.

There was a computer game named after the man ffs! The only good rugby computer game ever made at that.

profitius

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

:pac:

Exactly.

The biggest reason he will be a legend forever, while the likes of Christian Cullen won't, is nothing to do with the respective abilities of the two, but because Jonah had a massive impact on the profile of the game. He attracted tons of people to the sport. No other single player has had such an impact on the sport globally. O'Driscoll did it for rugby in Ireland, Wilkenson did it for rugby in England, but nobody else had such a global impact.

There was a computer game named after the man ffs! The only good rugby computer game ever made at that.

Beckham had a bigger commercial impact than Zidane and many other great soccer players with more things named after him etc. Why? Because he was easily noticeable. Lomu had the size and haircut etc. Its the same reason why Chabal is so marketable these days.

profitius

JustinDee wrote: »

This is actually a myth, much like the bullsh about Lomu being a poached Tongan/Islander or allegedly not being able to tackle.
Any winger can be 'found out' with the ball kicked back over their head.

Lomu is probably the biggest name ever to hit rugby union. People in non-rugby following countries even know who he is. He was an absolute one-off, never being matched since. Like Tana Umaga, he actually started out playing rugby league. He would have been sensational in that sport too. Thats how good he was.

As for the hearsay about being juiced-up in another post, shame, shame. Typically begrudging.

Its not a myth. He was slow to turn, hadn't great skills and Ireland put a young Shane Horgan on him and nullified his attacking threat because he couldn't run through Horgan.

Look at the size of those England wingers he was running through. That wouldn't happen these days. He was basically professional even at a young age he was always in the gym while those English players were largely amateur.

I'm not trying to knock him for the sake of it but just seperating fact from fiction. He would have been a good player in any era but not a legend. He was predictable in the same way Chabal is.

JustinDee

profitius wrote: »

Its not a myth. He was slow to turn, hadn't great skills and Ireland put a young Shane Horgan on him and nullified his attacking threat because he couldn't run through Horgan

It is a myth.
Horgan lasted half the game before going off injured. No skills?? He was the best offloader in the NZ backline during those years. As a very large and very fast winger, that skill is massive.

profitius wrote: »

Look at the size of those England wingers he was running through. That wouldn't happen these days. He was basically professional even at a young age he was always in the gym while those English players were largely amateur

Who's talking about one game here? The guy played on until around 2002 against the best of the best in Super 14 and in Tri Nations as well as in the 1999 RWC. I watched him absolutely crack Dan Herbert and still get the ball away. On the cut inside from wing, he gave Herbert and Gray a torrid time at a Toads game I was at.

profitius wrote: »

I'm not trying to knock him for the sake of it but just seperating fact from fiction. He would have been a good player in any era but not a legend. He was predictable in the same way Chabal is.

He was a great finisher and in an era that requires the ball being kept alive for offloading, he would have thrived.

I'm not even a Kiwi but I do remember Jonah Lomu well as a player as he came to the fore when I was in my late 20s. Have met him on a couple of occasions too. Top fella and a legend of the sport.

Dr.Evil

I wouldn't call him the greatest, but you can't deny he was hugely influential.

profitius

JustinDee wrote: »

It is a myth.
Horgan lasted half the game before going off injured. No skills?? He was the best offloader in the NZ backline during those years. As a very large and very fast winger, that skill is massive.

Who's talking about one game here? The guy played on until around 2002 against the best of the best in Super 14 and in Tri Nations as well as in the 1999 RWC. I watched him absolutely crack Dan Herbert and still get the ball away. On the cut inside from wing, he gave Herbert and Gray a torrid time at a Toads game I was at.

He was a great finisher and in an era that requires the ball being kept alive for offloading, he would have thrived.

I'm not even a Kiwi but I do remember Jonah Lomu well as a player as he came to the fore when I was in my late 20s. Have met him on a couple of occasions too. Top fella and a legend of the sport.

We'll agree to disagree on this one. I heard somebody say before that he was in the top 2 of the greatest 7's players of all time and I could see why in 7's. Himself, Christian Cullen and somebody else.

JustinDee

profitius wrote: »

We'll agree to disagree on this one. I heard somebody say before that he was in the top 2 of the greatest 7's players of all time and I could see why in 7's. Himself, Christian Cullen and somebody else.

The other player was the Fijian, Serevi.

theofficepest2

ha ha, boards is full of begrudgers with their little curmudgeonly faces

The guy was a legend, as a winger he was almost unstoppable, great hands, balance, power and speed, what else could the begrudgers be looking for exactly?

It's like in the fresh prince when he's a at a posh all white school and the basketball coach gives his only piece of advice 'give it to Will'

Well, give it to Johna

37 tries or so in about 7 years , while playing with a serious kidney problem (not sure how that affected him exactly), including 4 against the english in one go, stick that in your pipe and smoke it

Watch the videos here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64qM2u9wuA8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbFv752p5NE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGfnp16blXA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxxd3fDouR8

Would he have done as well today? well think Sonny Bill Williams only bigger, so pretty much yes

:pac: Ourp

GerM

theofficepest2 wrote: »

Would he have done as well today? well think Sonny Bill Williams only bigger

Lesley Vainikolo?

I hate these kind of threads tbh, I reckon Lomu did more for the game than 10 Richie McCaws or 15 Christian Cullens would. He made the game accessible for the outsider who nothing about rugby. He spawned the only playable rugby game for pc/console which did pretty well if I remember correctly.

People who hadn't the slightest interest in rugby tuned in to watch Lomu trample all over defenders. People thought of rugby as this posh school boys sport, and all of a sudden there was this monster of a man breaking tackles and leaving players lying on the ground in his wake. It was unheard of tbh.

It didn't matter, nor is it easy to ascertain, whether or not he'd be "as big" in today's game, because it wasn't today's game, it was the game 20 years ago. He had an incredibly marketable talent, speed, power and technique (watch him offloading) which made rugby exciting to watch for people who hadn't a clue what was going on.

There was an air of expectation around stadia, a collective intake of breath, every time he was on the ball.

Its not insane to say that Rugby now wouldn't be the same without Jonah Lomu.

theofficepest2

GerM wrote: »

Lesley Vainikolo?

Nope, he's shorter, a tad heavier alright but around the tum, thats no good, we need someone 6 5 and 20 stone (no not Tony Buckley legend that he is)

:pac: mmmmm Ourp

yimrsg

Just in the last part of the documentary video there had Lomu skinning Scotland's Paterson for speed who caught Foden in this years six nations so it's fair to say he'd still be a force now if he was around at his peak. It also shows him stopping a springbok second row 5 metres out. Another part shows him running through players ala Ferris against Argentina and sidestepping them like Earls/Fitzgerald.

That natural strength and speed coupled with todays training would make him stand out in any era of rugby. It's the same story comparing boxers from different eras. They'd still be class but essentially it's talk for down the pub rather than scientific proof of who was greater.

theofficepest2

yimrsg wrote: »

Just in the last part of the documentary video there had Lomu skinning Scotland's Paterson for speed who caught Foden in this years six nations so it's fair to say he'd still be a force now if he was around at his peak. It also shows him stopping a springbok second row 5 metres out. Another part shows him running through players ala Ferris against Argentina and sidestepping them like Earls/Fitzgerald.

That natural strength and speed coupled with todays training would make him stand out in any era of rugby. It's the same story comparing boxers from different eras. They'd still be class but essentially it's talk for down the pub rather than scientific proof of who was greater.

Also, you see his hand offs, almost as good as rogs against scotland, plus his ability to ghost past Patterson, remarkable similarities, spooky even

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJIuAaA8zao

:pac:

Teferi

Lads, you all realise this is a thread from 09 right?

evil_seed

Possibly one of the greatest. IMO he revolutionised the game of rugby and it's because of his impact that we have players like SBW, Hosea Gear and others. He is why the modern game of rugby is what it is. That's my opinion

profitius

theofficepest2 wrote: »

ha ha, boards is full of begrudgers with their little curmudgeonly faces

So anyone who disagrees is a begrudger? Nice reasoning there.

GerM wrote: »

Lesley Vainikolo?

He got found out quickly. If he was around a decade earlier he would have had a much better career.

Deleted User wrote: »

I hate these kind of threads tbh, I reckon Lomu did more for the game than 10 Richie McCaws or 15 Christian Cullens would. He made the game accessible for the outsider who nothing about rugby. He spawned the only playable rugby game for pc/console which did pretty well if I remember correctly.

Its not insane to say that Rugby now wouldn't be the same without Jonah Lomu.

Nobody is doubting what he did for the game. Beckham has done wonders for soccer too.

Teferi wrote: »

Lads, you all realise this is a thread from 09 right?

Yup.

theofficepest2

profitius wrote: »

So anyone who disagrees is a begrudger? Nice reasoning there.

No No No. you having nothing positive to add, even taking the shine off his one trick (as you say) by saying it could be argued it was a great trick, therefore implying it's not

Exactly what were his weaknesses anyway (please show me some footage to back this up), apparently there were a lot of them.

and he only had one trick to pull. Which trick was this, scoring tries? running through people, running around people, running over people, handing people off, great passing, super pickups, super off loads, super steps, making line breaks, running great lines, making tries for other people, breaking tackles, some great defence (see my clips although he is a wing after all), amazing pace, heart passions etc

All these things are in the video

What game are we talking about again, rugby, hmm, he seems to have most all of the bases covered. I'd say even Brian O'Driscoll would be happy with that list

Oh wait, I found his weakness, he was useless at place kicking, that must be it so, but thats not a lot, even bods not the best at drop goals

No one is perfect

rugby turned pro in 1995, he was 19/20, so he played his whole career thrugh the professional era, he's all natural talent and hard work, he had access to the same training etc as anyone else in NZ, yet they weren't doing what he did

People are saying the game has advanced, right, so are we saying he was at his peak? Or could he have improved as well

And for anyone saying that the modrin defence would get across, the defence did get across, he mangled them, it took 6 saffers to take him down in one clip, hardly 12 stone weaklings


:pac: mmmm Ourp

theofficepest2

2009 what a year for Rugby

theofficepest2

one last thing, if the Munster v Leinster thread can have such legs then so can this one

:pac: Ourp

jolley123

theofficepest2 wrote: »

:pac: Ourp

What the hell is that and why do you keep putting it in your posts.
It makes you seem really annoying, but then again I suppose you're just living up to your name.

With regards to Lomu, he was/is a legend, and I don't think anyone disagrees with the great impact he had on the game. He was the most recognisable player of his time.

Do I think he was the best player of his time - no. Personally I think Christian Cullen was better. But that's just because Cullen was just pure skill, whereas part of the reason Lomu was so good was because of his size and pace.

Would he be as good today? - yes, I think so. He would be a SBW with more power and speed.