Refused a moderator by a Super Verbally

wicklow_hunter

Hi all

I need some advice

Ive been going back through older threads and ive still drawn ablank of what to do....

Ive ticked the box + included a letter why i wanted the Mod
filled out the application all 9 pages and low and behold
I recieved like many a Grant letter for my Centerfire Rifle some 3 months later.

ive been ringing the station in Hot Persuit of the Super for over a 2/3 weeks. Iwas getting the usual run around.

Probably called atleast 10 times

Eventually I got a call back from the super today

In a polite manner i asked had i been granted permission for the Mod...

i was F**ked from the word go....


Lets just say 'Scaring horses and Live stock' didnt do it for the Super

I asked for a 'written refusal' and his response was 'i dont have to give any written respose the answer is NO!

I retreated at this point absolutily gutted...

The question is what should i do now

A. Should i hand Back the Mod to my dealer
B. Write another Letter to Super & give more excuses
C. Ring my cuz who is a member of the Boys in Blue and see can he help
D. Badger the super for a written refusal


Im thinkin option C :rolleyes:

Thanks in advance

johngalway

If you're a member of the NARGC contact Des Crofton.

wicklow_hunter

Not a member of Nargc

Reading your post John it appears that your application for a mod was also refused, did you ever get yours sorted?

CJhaughey

I wouldn't go calling him/her a P***k on a public forum, it might backfire.
Given that you are probably identifiable it might be an idea to modify your post.;)

johngalway

wicklow_hunter wrote: »

Not a member of Nargc

Reading your post John it appears that your application for a mod was also refused, did you ever get yours sorted?

Mine was never refused. I just didn't have an S on my license. I rang my local Garda when he was at the main station in Clifden, as he has no access to the Pulse system from the substation. He checked out my cert number through Pulse and I'm OK'd to have a mod for my .223 according to Pulse, so that's enough for me. You could try something similar if you know any of the cops or the FO any way well at all, give them your cert number and ask them to check Pulse.

wicklow_hunter

CJhaughey wrote: »

I wouldn't go calling him/her a P***k on a public forum, it might backfire.
Given that you are probably identifiable it might be an idea to modify your post.;)

Done;)

Hibrion

Sorry to sort of hi jack the thread but is an individual within their rights to demand a written reason for the refusal. I ask because I fear I may have to face a similar ordeal?

wicklow_hunter

Hibrion wrote: »

Sorry to sort of hi jack the thread but is an individual within their rights to demand a written reason for the refusal. I ask because I fear I may have to face a similar ordeal?

Thats what i was thinking too :rolleyes:

Can anyone shed some light on the situatition?

rrpc

Hmmm. Technically as a silencer is a firearm under the firearms act then it comes under the remit of section 15A:

15A.—(1) An appeal may be made to the District Court by a person aggrieved by any of the following decisions made by an issuing person:
(a) to refuse to grant a firearms training certificate under section 2A of this Act;
(b) to refuse to grant or renew a firearm certificate under section 3 of this Act;
(c) to refuse to grant or renew an authorisation for a rifle or pistol club or shooting range under section 4A of this Act;
(d) to revoke a firearm certificate under section 5 of this Act;
(e) to refuse to register a person, or to renew a registration, in the register of firearms dealers under section 9 of this Act;
(f) to grant or renew an authorisation under section 10 of this Act;
(g) to remove the name of a person from the register of firearms dealers under section 11 of this Act;
(h) to refuse to grant a licence under section 10A of this Act;
(i) to refuse to grant an authorisation under section 16(1) of this Act;
(j) to refuse to grant a licence for the import of firearms or ammunition or a prohibited weapon under section 17 of this Act or to vary such a licence or conditions named in it;
(k) to refuse to renew a firearm certificate under section 9 of the Firearms
Act 1964; or
(l) to refuse to grant a firearm certificate, or to revoke such a certificate, under section 2 of the Firearms (Firearm Certificate for Non-Residents) Act 2000.
(2) An appeal shall be made within 30 days of receipt of notice of the decision concerned.
(3) On the appeal the Court may—
(a) confirm the decision,
(b) adjourn the proceedings and direct the issuing person to reconsider the decision in the light of the appeal proceedings, or
(c) allow the appeal.

Silencers also have there own section (section 7 of the 1990 act) and that isn't mentioned above as something that you have a right to appeal, but I'd be a brave lawyer that said a silencer didn't also come under section 3 of the firearms act.

But it's not clear cut unfortunately.

Our man in Havana

Get him to put his refusal in writing. You can't do anything appeal wise until this has happened.

johngalway

Bond-007 wrote: »

Get him to put his refusal in writing. You can't do anything appeal wise until this has happened.

How though?

Cass

Tell him you put a deposit/ paid for a moderator in anticipation of the license being granted. The dealer will refund the money but only on proof that a refusal is the cause and not change of mind.

True, correct and valid i think. Its like getting a mod in reverse.

Our man in Havana

Can he not take the refusal to the District Court? Would the no response within 3 months be deemed a de facto refusal giving the OP standing to take the matter to the courts?

Cass

I would assume the "no response within 3 months" would mean no response at all. (verbal or written). The fact that he has a verbal refusal but marked his FCA1 and submitted a letter for the mod would prove his application end of it.

I think best advice would be to retry the Super (you'll know better than i if thats an option or not) if all else fails request the refusal in writing then consider the time, money and effort and ask yourself is it worth it. I'm not advocating giving up but if you really can do without it leave it. If you want it and need it then absolutely pursue it to the last. Try an appeal but as rrpc said its not clear cut and could prove tricky.

rrpc

Tell him a verbal refusal isn't worth the paper it's written on. There's no way to know you can't have it without a written refusal.

Anyway, once you lodge an appeal in the District Court, he has to write something down.

deerhunter1

johngalway wrote: »

Mine was never refused. I just didn't have an S on my license. I rang my local Garda when he was at the main station in Clifden, as he has no access to the Pulse system from the substation. He checked out my cert number through Pulse and I'm OK'd to have a mod for my .223 according to Pulse, so that's enough for me. You could try something similar if you know any of the cops or the FO any way well at all, give them your cert number and ask them to check Pulse.

Same here ok on the pulse system

wicklow_hunter

ezridax wrote: »

Tell him you put a deposit/ paid for a moderator in anticipation of the license being granted. The dealer will refund the money but only on proof that a refusal is the cause and not change of mind.

True, correct and valid i think. Its like getting a mod in reverse.

The super has clearly stated that he doesnt have to provide me with a written refusal ...
I was hoping that there would be something under the the Firearms act that states that a refusal has to be issued in writing

From what rppc is saying things are not looking good...

Even if i get written refusal its still not worth the paper its written on without goin to the courts which i would not be inclined to go down that road....

I asked the super what grounds were they issuing mods on and he delined the question.

In hind sight i shouldnt of asked the question

What grounds are mods been granted on as a matter of interest?

ivanthehunter

wicklow_hunter wrote: »

The super has clearly stated that he doesnt have to provide me with a written refusal ...
I was hoping that there would be something under the the Firearms act that states that a refusal has to be issued in writing

From what rppc is saying things are not looking good...

Even if i get written refusal its still not worth the paper its written on without goin to the courts which i would not be inclined to go down that road....

I asked the super what grounds were they issuing mods on and he delined the question.

In hind sight i shouldnt of asked the question

What grounds are mods been granted on as a matter of interest?

Its bad but some times its best not to ask the question! when you know you could get an unwanted answer!:(

bunny shooter

I got my refusal for a .22lr moddy in writing emailed NARGC still awaiting reply as to my options

meathstevie

Bunny,

at least that is a properly motivated written refusal. Whether you agree with the arguments made or not is different story. As for the other lad in here who got a verbal refusal; how does the Super know he was speaking to you over the phone ? Could have been a plumber doing a job in your house who picked up the phone as far as he knows.

The least he could have done was pass on the message to your local station so it could be said face to face. Personally I'm of the opinion that it should be in writing.

BornToKill

wicklow_hunter wrote: »

The question is what should i do now

A. Should i hand Back the Mod to my dealer
B. Write another Letter to Super & give more excuses
C. Ring my cuz who is a member of the Boys in Blue and see can he help
D. Badger the super for a written refusal


Im thinkin option C :rolleyes:

Thanks in advance

If you have been refused and do not have authorisation to have a moderator it is an offence and you should also be thinking option A. You never gave your circumstances other than to say you are not a member of the NARGC. Why did you want a moderator and what did you say in your letter to the Super? It might fill in some of the missing background.

As far as option B is concerned, it looks too late now. The letter should really contain reasons rather than excuses though.

No right of appeal is set out in s15A as rrpc has observed since you haven't been refused the grant of a firearms cert.

rrpc

BornToKill wrote: »

No right of appeal is set out in s15A as rrpc has observed since you haven't been refused the grant of a firearms cert.

Not quite. There are two ways of looking at this:

1. Section 7 of 1990 and you get an authorisation which lasts for one year and is not covered under 15A for appeals.

2. Section 3 of the firearms act and it's open to appeal under 15A

Why both? Because the application form includes a tick box for a silencer and as such means that the cert for it will last for three years and is therefore a firearms certificate as defined under section 3 of the act and therefore a refusal is open to appeal under Section 15A.

Having applied on the FCA1 form (the prescribed form for a firearm) you could well be entitled to an appeal against a refusal.

But that's a solicitor's job (which I'm not), so this is not professional advice

kay 9

rrpc wrote: »

Tell him a verbal refusal isn't worth the paper it's written on. There's no way to know you can't have it without a written refusal.

Anyway, once you lodge an appeal in the District Court, he has to write something down.

Hi there rrpc, this maybe a wild question but thought it's worth askin anyway, I was wondering what kind of $$ it would cost to put these problems through the district court?
Or if anyone with any previous experience of such a case would know.

Cheers,Kay9

rrpc

kay 9 wrote: »

Hi there rrpc, this maybe a wild question but thought it's worth askin anyway, I was wondering what kind of $$ it would cost to put these problems through the district court?
Or if anyone with any previous experience of such a case would know.

Cheers,Kay9

I've heard of up to €650, but that's for a solicitor with very great experience of firearms cases. You're probably looking at anything from €250 to €750.

You can also represent yourself in the DC.

Our man in Havana

You can also represent yourself in the DC.

At your peril.

johngalway

rrpc wrote: »

You can also represent yourself in the DC.

Judge don't usually like that AFAIK.

Traumadoc

"A fool for a client"

Our man in Havana

johngalway wrote: »

Judge don't usually like that AFAIK.

There is nothing they can do about it. For a complex matter they will tell you to reconsider your decision not to hire legal representation. At the end of the day if you insist on proceeding without a solicitor that is your own look out.

Grizzly 45

And a thing a judge hates the most.As they are now dealing with a layman,the court has to bend over backwards to assist them,thus creating more time and work.

fish slapped

Ah yes , they do hate it when we insist on our rights and cost them some of our hard earned taxes not to mention making them actually work for their money!!!!