Dublin Abuse Report

MementoMori

For those who are interested in reading the investigation into the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin follow the link is below.

For those who are members of the Archdiocese of Dublin and regularly contribute to their church collections, how do you feel about some portion of the money you contribute going to support these paedophiles?

Also I was wondering what the theological implications are for an abuser if he goes to confession and expresses contrition for their sins? Should their crimes be reported to the relevant authorities in a case like this or should the sanctity of the confessional be respected and no further action be taken?

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PB09000504

catchup

I was wondering when someone was going to start this thread. It seemed that people were ignoring the issue...a bit like the institution itself.

Run_to_da_hills

catchup wrote: »

I was wondering when someone was going to start this thread. It seemed that people were ignoring the issue...a bit like the institution itself.

There are several threads on this subject in AH and maybe the best place for it as I could see it getting out of hand.

condra

I'm appalled by the report, though not surprised.

It was also fairly damning of the Gardai, and I've read of similar cases with regards to cops turning a blind eye to complaints made about teachers.

I found Diarmuid Martins response on tonights 530 news on Three to be dignified and fair. He came across to me as being a compassionate, intelligent and diplomatic man.

For an atheist like myself, it contributes very little to the debate about whether or not God exists, though it speaks volumes about the role and behaviour of the RCC itself as a powerful institution.

It's just really tragic and infuriating.

I hope that something good comes from all of this misery. Reform of the church, better protection of children, etc.

conaltdel20

I haven't read the report and I don't really want to. Primetime was heartbreaking to watch last night. This was brutal, horrific stuff. All I can say is that the church has utterly lost her way on earth. In fact, if Jesus Christ showed up in the morning at The Vatican, he'd probably be thrown out. Everyone will stand before Christ eventually. Victims of clerical abuse will be gathered close to him. He will shed a tear with them one last time, before wiping their eyes dry forever. As for men who commited these crimes and then dared to re-enact the Lord's sacrifice of love?? You are manifest evil and may The Lord have mercy on you.

Cabaal

I have no problem with Christianity as a religion its fine and like any other, my problem is who's trying to run the game.

We have the Vatican who was fully aware of what was going on and tried to cover things up for years to "save face" this for me is the problem as during the same time they condemnd people for having kids outside of marriage etc yet they knew what their own priests were doing.

Bduffman

What I want to know is why are the RCC allowed to continue to run schools? If it was any non-religious organisation they would have been relieved of that responsibility long ago.

Xluna

The church will only reform itself when it's members demand it. Making excuses for them or burying ones head in the sand will lead to no reform what so all. I'm glad someone finally created this thread.

I was literally sickened by the whole "mental reservation"/the art of lying without lying.(See atheist and agnostic forum.) No matter how much faith I had I could never trust this institution again, I'd join another form of Christianity-anything but them.If Satan does exist he must reside in the upper echelons of the Catholic church.

Zombrex

Bishop Eamonn Walsh was on Morning Ireland this morning and he really glossed over the main question being put to him, which to me is the central question in all of this, is what is being done by the Catholic church to look internally at the attitudes that were clearly widespread through the organisation that the best response to all this was cover up to protect the Church from scandal

It is all very well for the Church to now say they are putting in place measure to protect children but they seem to be ignoring whole sale the issue of why so many priests particularly in significant positions of power, defaulted to a position of cover up as the best "solution" to this issue.

That is where I think the real lack of confidence in the Church is coming from, not that this happened but that the entire Church system closed in on itself when it did and went to great lengths to try and ensure no one found out about it.

The Church are not asking themselves the hard questions. They aren't asking themselves, publicly, why that happened. Bishop Walsh glossed over the question with a ridiculous assertion that those "dark days" are gone, as if the attitudes of hundreds of priests just changes over night because they are told to.

It is a cover up of a cover up, the failure to recognize that this is not simply a question of a small handful of paedophile priests, but of a organisation where the wide spread practice was cover up and deception.

Asiaprod

An advance word of caution here based on the history of this forum.

I would remind the posters here that this is also a very troubling time for the good catholics that post here and have been dropped right in it by their church. My mother is one of these and she is devastated by this. Stay on topic. Attack the church for its deceit/cover up by all means, leave the faithful out of it please.
Thanks
Asia

super_furry

The hypocrasy is staggeringly sickening, I'll never be able to take Catholic communion again. The Pope should be on his hands and knees begging these poor innocents for forgiveness.

TelePaul

As a former, regularly-practicing Catholic, who would always contribute to church collections, I feel both ashamed and disgusted. The thought that my donations funded those priests who were either actively molesting children - or those who knew about it and did nothing - is very disturbing. My faith has become a much more private affair since these scandals have come to light and will continue to be so.

TelePaul

Wicknight wrote: »

Bishop Eamonn Walsh was on Morning Ireland this morning and he really glossed over the main question being put to him, which to me is the central question in all of this, is what is being done by the Catholic church to look internally at the attitudes that were clearly widespread through the organisation that the best response to all this was cover up to protect the Church from scandal

It is all very well for the Church to now say they are putting in place measure to protect children but they seem to be ignoring whole sale the issue of why so many priests particularly in significant positions of power, defaulted to a position of cover up as the best "solution" to this issue.

That is where I think the real lack of confidence in the Church is coming from, not that this happened but that the entire Church system closed in on itself when it did and went to great lengths to try and ensure no one found out about it.

The Church are not asking themselves the hard questions. They aren't asking themselves, publicly, why that happened. Bishop Walsh glossed over the question with a ridiculous assertion that those "dark days" are gone, as if the attitudes of hundreds of priests just changes over night because they are told to.

It is a cover up of a cover up, the failure to recognize that this is not simply a question of a small handful of paedophile priests, but of a organisation where the wide spread practice was cover up and deception.

I have to agree, the main problem lies with the backward culture of the organisation as a whole.

MrMatisse

There is a pre written email here

www.countmeout.ie

where you can register your disgust without leaving the Church.

dvpower

TelePaul wrote: »

As a former, regularly-practicing Catholic, who would always contribute to church collections, I feel both ashamed and disgusted. The thought that my donations funded those priests who were either actively molesting children - or those who knew about it and did nothing - is very disturbing. My faith has become a much more private affair since these scandals have come to light and will continue to be so.

The problem is that you never know where your money is going. The RCC appear to have a large array of funds e.g. The Clerical Fund Society, The Poor of Dublin Fund, The Curial Trust, The Diocesan Clerical Fund, The Pastoral Services Fund, The Common Fund, The Post Graduate Fund.

So you might want to contribute to the running of the Church by contributing to the Common Fund, but then you find that the Clerical Fund Society, where a lot of payments to guilty priests came from, gets funded by the The Common Fund.

Either way, it seems that paedophile or not, you still got paid.

Report by Commission of Investigation into Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin wrote:

The Clerical Fund Society has also supported priests who are accused of child sexual abuse. When such a priest was removed from office and/or was undergoing treatment, the income support payments to him were in general made from the Clerical Fund Society. The amount paid was broadly similar to the income of active priests.

Kila

I have spent most of today reading the report, as I did the Ryan report when it came out. I'm sorry to say that I'm deeply disgusted by what I've read, and it has left me considering my position as a member of the church.

While I don't wish to abandon what faith I have, I am having trouble reconciling my faith with the abhorrent things that have been discovered, and with the notion that I am connected to the group.

I think that what lies ahead for many people, including myself, is a difficult decision. Not the decision to abandon faith, for I believe that is a much more personal matter, but the decision to stay with, or abandon, the church.

I believe it is a great shame that people will have to make such a decision, and I'm struggling to see how I will make the decision myself.

Red Sleeping Beauty

In light of this report and taken together with the other ones, do the Christians (or Catholics) here think perhaps it is time the Church fully hands over any and all control or part they play in state institutions such as schools or hospitals?

Ciaran500

Kila wrote: »

I think that what lies ahead for many people, including myself, is a difficult decision. Not the decision to abandon faith, for I believe that is a much more personal matter, but the decision to stay with, or abandon, the church.

I believe it is a great shame that people will have to make such a decision, and I'm struggling to see how I will make the decision myself.

From the outside looking in, I can't possibly see how people have any question over whether they should continue to support this organisation. I know everyone in the organisation isn't corrupt but there seems to be some on every level and there is nothing more than weak statements coming from the people in power about how they're dealing with them.

nozzferrahhtoo

Kila wrote: »

While I don't wish to abandon what faith I have, I am having trouble reconciling my faith with the abhorrent things that have been discovered, and with the notion that I am connected to the group.

I think that what lies ahead for many people, including myself, is a difficult decision. Not the decision to abandon faith, for I believe that is a much more personal matter, but the decision to stay with, or abandon, the church.

Well said. As you may know there is a website www.countmeout.ie set up to help people leave the church. I met the three people involved and saw them on irish television too. They are an atheist, an agnostic and a lapsed catholic by their own description.

The reason I mention that is clear. One of them still has faith. Leaving the church is entirely different to leaving faith in god. You do not have to be an atheist to do this and many are not.

As you say yourself, faith is a private thing. Your decision on whether to leave the church is a different one entirely.

My heart is with you, I would not wish the choice on my worst enemy, but I hope that being clear on the difference does help you a little with that choice.

By leaving you are not attacking or leaving your god, you are just saying essentially "This church does not speak TO or FOR my faith any more. My path to god is now on a different road".

Good luck with it, and in the words of Dave Allen "May your god go with you".

faceman

There isnt a Catholic anywhere who isnt disgusted, horrified and angry at what went on, what was covered up and the fact there will people who got away with it.

God didnt do this. Evil men did. And evil men covered it up. They may portray themselves as men of faith, of the cloth, but they are beyond mortal forgiveness.

I still have my faith despite these horrific events. But my faith never lay in the hands of priests, bishops or monks anyway.

oceanclub

faceman wrote: »

There isnt a Catholic anywhere who isnt disgusted, horrified and angry at what went on, what was covered up and the fact there will people who got away with it.

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. There are a number of Catholics who still think that the whole thing is just hyped up by damn "secularists". That's the line taken by the conservative newspaper Alive anyway.

http://www.alive.ie/

P.

faceman

oceanclub wrote: »

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. There are a number of Catholics who still think that the whole thing is just hyped up by damn "secularists". That's the line taken by the conservative newspaper Alive anyway.

http://www.alive.ie/

P.

ok, so there maybe whackos everywhere but thats not due to their faith. My point is that no rational human being etc.

we have to remember that men did this, not religion.

oceanclub

faceman wrote: »

ok, so there maybe whackos everywhere but thats not due to their faith. My point is that no rational human being etc.

we have to remember that men did this, not religion.

If those behind Alive are simply a fringe bunch of "whackos", then why are they allowed to distribute their newspaper in churches?

P.

faceman

oceanclub wrote: »

If those behind Alive are simply a fringe bunch of "whackos", then why are they allowed to distribute their newspaper in churches?

P.

Its not me you need to ask that question to.

oceanclub

faceman wrote: »

Its not me you need to ask that question to.

It's a rhetorical question. Presumably the church hierarchy approves of their newspaper if they distribute it. I doubt if I started distributing pro-choice leaflets in churches, they would last long anyway.

P.

condra

faceman wrote: »

we have to remember that men did this, not religion.

I replied to this already. Was my post deleted? If so, why?

(Your response was deleted because you were using a legitimate debate on the Ryan report to launch an attack on religion in general, which is contrary to the Forum Charter.
PDN)

mehfesto2

For me, this whole ordeal has highlighted the role the church plays today.
Personally, I find it to be redundant.

There are many people - quite a few on this forum alone - who are well versed in the bible and can defend their beliefs very well. They seem to require very little guidance and if any at all. The church has been detrimental to them expressing their beliefs. Many people attack these believers because of the actions of the church, not because of what they believe or their personal actions based on the teachings of the bible.

I personally hope that many RCs will look towards their religion without the formalities of the church. It has failed it's parishoners so many, many times. Yet their beliefs have never betrayed them in the same manner.

The church has failed the most innocent people of all. But your beliefs havn't.

Ultravid

super_furry wrote: »

The hypocrasy is staggeringly sickening, I'll never be able to take Catholic communion again. The Pope should be on his hands and knees begging these poor innocents for forgiveness.

We should remember that the young people who were abused were members of the Church, the Body of Christ. These crimes were committed against the Church, and therefore Christ Himself, in a most heinous way by those men appointed Sacred Ministers of Christ. The treachery is staggering. The Lord said, 'Whatever you did to the least of these my brethren, you did to me.''

In light of that, I am sad to read what you wrote concerning Holy Communion.

This abuse and coverup is the work of Satan. I believe that those who suffered should be given all the care and assistance they need to be healed. And healing is possible, although it will be very painful. Those who inflicted abuse should pay for their crimes. Catholics need to pray for the Church at this time. Indeed we must also pray for ourselves. If everyone did what they were supposed to do, when they were supposed to do it, would we be in this situation? Dereliction of duty and vocation springs to mind, not only of Bishops, but of society as a whole.

I believe there is a lot of deadwood which needs to be excised from the Church (we need lots of good people to do this, and good men to shepherd the Church), but I am saddened that so many people will forsake their faith and their salvation because of this current crisis.

dvpower

Ultravid wrote: »

This abuse and coverup is the work of Satan. I believe that those who suffered should be given all the care and assistance they need to be healed. And healing is possible, although it will be very painful. Those who inflicted abuse should pay for their crimes. Catholics need to pray for the Church at this time. Indeed we must also pray for ourselves. If everyone did what they were supposed to do, when they were supposed to do it, would we be in this situation? Dereliction of duty and vocation springs to mind, not only of Bishops, but of society as a whole.

The work of Satan? Do we have a serving cardinal that has been infiltrated by Satan?

All the Archbishops and many of the auxiliary bishops in the period covered by the Commission handled child sexual abuse complaints badly. During the period under review, there were four Archbishops – Archbishops McQuaid, Ryan, McNamara and Connell. Not one of them reported his knowledge of child sexual abuse to the Gardaí throughout the 1960s, 1970s, or 1980s. It was not until November 1995 that Archbishop Connell allowed the names of 17 priests about whom the Archdiocese had received complaints to be given to the Gardaí. This figure was not complete. At that time there was knowledge within the Archdiocese of at least 28 priests against whom there had been complaints.

Ultravid

dvpower wrote: »

The work of Satan? Do we have a serving cardinal that has been infiltrated by Satan?

Satan uses people to do his work. Nobody is immune from this, not you, not me, not even the leaders of the Church. In fact, Satan gives them an even harder time. We all fight a daily battle between good and evil in our own souls.*




*I've nothing more to add and will decline to be drawn into any discussion which seeks to mock the Catholic Faith under the cover of this crisis.

super_metroid

after the recent report and the disgraceful vincent brown interview, i have decided i am better off without the church

Run_to_da_hills

oceanclub wrote: »

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. There are a number of Catholics who still think that the whole thing is just hyped up by damn "secularists". That's the line taken by the conservative newspaper Alive anyway.

http://www.alive.ie/

P.

You must take note, Alive is a red top tabloid.

super_metroid wrote: »

after the recent report and the disgraceful vincent brown interview, i have decided i am better off without the church

Dont throw the baby out with the bath water, there are other chuches besides the Catholic Church that would welcome you. Try the Church of Ireland or any of th independant churches.

dvpower

Ultravid wrote: »

*I've nothing more to add and will decline to be drawn into any discussion which seeks to mock the Catholic Faith under the cover of this crisis.

That's an appalling accusation. You said that the abuse and cover up was the work of Satan. I simply pointed out that a serving cardinal was implicated in the cover up.

Mockery would be an entirely innapropraite response to the Murphy report; it was far too serious for that.

Ultravid

dvpower wrote: »

That's an appalling accusation. You said that the abuse and cover up was the work of Satan. I simply pointed out that a serving cardinal was implicated in the cover up.

Mockery would be an entirely innapropraite response to the Murphy report; it was far too serious for that.

It wasn't an accusation. I was just concerned that things might go downhill on this thread.

The abuse and cover-up was the work of Satan, working through fallen men.

One thing occurred to me, and that was that the psychological people who evaluated these men and approved their going back into parishes have some responsibility too. I understand that the bishops took some of their advice from these people. I understand that oftentimes, the advice was bad advice, as we've seen. However, my own position would be, one strike and you're out of the priesthood for good, no rehabilitation, no second chance. The good of souls and the Church demands it.

We need good solid orthodox men with testosterone in positions of authority and the priesthood. For too long we've had the opposite. I'm as frustrated as anyone else about the spinelessness and lack of moral integrity of many of our Bishops.

A good book to get an idea of why this has happened, not only in Ireland, but in America and other places, is, Goodbye Good Men, by Michael Rose. It's a sickening read but if you want to understand just how this happened, read it.

I love the Church, and I am convinced that the Catholic Church is the Church Christ established on earth. Unfortunately, backstabbers have been present from the beginning, and today is no different. The crimes against children of the Church, as well as the grave scandal caused to the faithful is deplorable, and all of those responsible will have to answer for it to Almighty God.

oceanclub

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You must take note, Alive is a red top tabloid.

As I've already mentioned, a tabloid that the Catholic Church takes a role in distributing.

P.

Ultravid

oceanclub wrote: »

As I've already mentioned, a tabloid that the Catholic Church takes a role in distributing.

P.

I don't think you'll find ALIVE! supporting abusers. If you can find one article which does that, I shall eat my hat. By the way, the past issues of ALIVE! are archived on their website.

Run to da hills: The COI has its own share of abuse problems too.

oceanclub

Ultravid wrote: »

I don't think you'll find ALIVE! supporting abusers.

Nice strawman there. Nowhere did I claim Alive are supporting abusers.

P.

PDN

Ultravid wrote: »

Run to da hills: The COI has its own share of abuse problems too.

But not, I understand, a history of covering it up, which is the real problem.

A certain percentage of the population are paedophiles - and these sick individuals are often very skilled in worming their way into positions where they have the trust of, and access to, children. Therefore we should expect them to pop up in the priesthood, in the leadership of other churches, as teachers, as swimming coaches etc. All any organisation can do is to set as many safeguards in place as possible, and deal promptly, effectively, and honestly with such individuals.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

dvpower

Ultravid wrote: »

It wasn't an accusation. I was just concerned that things might go downhill on this thread.

Fair enough.

Ultravid wrote: »

However, my own position would be, one strike and you're out of the priesthood for good, no rehabilitation, no second chance.

Absolutely. Anyone guilty of abusing a child should have no place in the church. The thought that someone who used their position to facilitate the abuse of a child could retain that position is incredible (in any organisation, church or not).

But what of those involved in the cover up? Some were active in the cover up; others were guilty by omission. Not wanting to appear to be Catholic bashing, I do find it odd that Desmond Connell, who was criticised in the report, holds the position of Cardinal in the Catholic Church.

dvpower

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I'm told that the priest in my local church denounced the publication (without naming it) from the pulpit a few weeks ago.

condra

we have to remember that men did this, not religion.

The RCC has to take some of the blame.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Ultravid

I think ALIVE! is pretty good. It says things nobody else is able or prepared to say, and should say.

I'd be interested to know just some of the grounds for why some of the priests might be against the paper. I can think of a few myself.

The little cartoon I've attached is just one. Of course there are many sterling examples of good priests and bishops in our Church who are easily forgotten and overlooked and to whom the cartoon certainly doesn't apply. Note well: I love the Church. I just wish our priests and bishops would do their God-given work faithfully. Meanwhile I'll try to be the best Catholic I can be.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Morbert

Ultravid wrote: »

I think ALIVE! is pretty good. It says things nobody else can say, or is prepared to say, and probably should say, yet needs to be said.

I'd be interested to know just some of the grounds for why some of the priests might be against the paper. I can think of a few myself.

The little cartoon I've attached is just one. Of course there are many sterling examples of good priests and bishops in our Church who are easily forgotten and overlooked and to whom the cartoon certainly doesn't apply. Note well: I love the Church. I just wish our priests and bishops would do their God-given work faithfully. Meanwhile I'll try to be the best Catholic I can be.

Alive is a twitching, flailing, corpse of a newspaper, which should be avoided by everyone at all costs. If God exists, then Alive is far removed from Him.

The abuse and cover-up was the work of Satan, working through fallen men.

The scandal is more proof that satan cannot compare to the evils of mankind. Satan is a poser. Man is the true servant of sin.

Ultravid

Morbert wrote: »

Alive is a twitching, flailing, corpse of a newspaper, which should be avoided by everyone at all costs. If God exists, then Alive is far removed from Him.



The scandal is more proof that satan cannot compare to the evils of mankind. Satan is a poser. Man is the true servant of sin.

Some men do good mostly, some do evil mostly, most do a combination of both. In so much as we commit sin, we serve the Devil.

I'm too tired to come to the aid of the ALIVE! newspaper; suffice it to say despite some minor shortcomings, it does more than a lot of outlets for at least attempting to support the Magisterium of the Catholic Church which is trampled underfoot by some priests and even bishops, unfortunately. You know, the liberal Father trendy types who ignore key Church teaching and in turn mislead the flock by condoning sin. With shepherds like that, who needs wolves? It was also wolves incidentally that savaged our young people.

But let us not lose hope. The Church is young and vibrant, despite what The Irish Times would tell you. Liberal Catholicism is dead. What follows is an interesting article about this.

http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/archives/008905.php

Morbert

Ultravid wrote: »

Some men do good mostly, some do evil mostly, most do a combination of both. In so much as we commit sin, we serve the Devil.

The point I was making was that the scandal was the work of men, not the work of any scapegoat spirit. The Church can't begin to repair itself until it accepts this.

And why do you say we serve the devil when we commit sin? Christianity holds that both man and the devil were tempted to sin. We're just much better at it.

Ultravid

Morbert wrote: »

The point I was making was that the scandal was the work of men, not the work of any scapegoat spirit. The Church can't begin to repair itself until it accepts this.

And why do you say we serve the devil when we commit sin? Christianity holds that both man and the devil were tempted to sin. We're just much better at it.

I suggest you read a book such as Mere Christianity, by CS Lewis. Not a Catholic author, but very Catholic in his thought and writings.

Handsome Bob

I felt like crying reading The Irish Times coverage of the report yesterday, it was just such horrific reading. These men weren't just paedophiles, they were sadists. One priest, a Father Noel Reynolds I believe, violated a girl with a crucifix in more than one area of her body. I just can't understand that, it goes beyond having sexual desires towards children and is more about consiously inflicting horrific damage on another human being. I really hope that the beliefs of the likes of Ivan Payne and Noel Reynolds in the concept of heaven and hell is correct, because these men deserve to suffer for eternity for what they've done to so many children.

The church hierarchy absolutely infuriates me also. Not only did they show a shocking and disgraceful disregard for children and families that trusted them, but they also showed absolute contempt towards the faith of so many of their followers. My mother is one of those people, and she doesn't deserve to have this burden of guilt on her shoulders. Absolutely disgusts me.

oceanclub

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

They're happy enough to leave bundles lying around churches.

Please don't patronise me and tell me this is because the Catholic Church is supportive of the freedom of the press and will help all newspapers like out this.

P.