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Report on Clerical Abuse within the Dublin Archdiocese...

  • 26-11-2009 07:01PM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭


    I've just started reading this report, can someone maybe clarify this for me...

    In the opening pages of the report, there is a reference to civil law and canon law. Is the application of canon law upon the people of state not as unenforcable upon citizens as the Scouts Law???


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭omahaid


    Approximately the same if I'm not mistaken. Is canon law referenced in the document? Can't understand why it would be.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12 Djuret


    I belive the point they're trying to make is that neither canon nor civil law was (or is) respected by the clergy of ireland.

    I'm not sure I'd advise reading the full report, there's something thoroughly disturbing about prepubescent girls being raped with a crucifix up the backside.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,591 ✭✭✭✭Aidric


    From part one of the report:
    4.44 Anyone accused of a crime at canon law (or in civil law) has a right to an impartial investigation. The complainant and his/her family also have a right to an impartial investigation. The accused cleric is to be informed about his right to obtain legal advice and, if necessary, to be accompanied by a lawyer if being interviewed during the process of the preliminary investigation. There is no requirement on the priest to respond to the allegation; he is entitled to remain silent and is not required to take an oath or explain his situation. No adverse inference can be drawn by the delegate if the accused exercises his right to silence.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    Basically, the clergy have for years, used Canon law to hide behind, hoping that it would protect them from their duities to Civil Law. It has taken far too long for the State & the enforces of the law ie., the police to actually get their fingers out & do something about this.

    In the case of abuse of children by the clergy, Ireland once again has another Golden Circle only this time it's the Government, the Church & the Guards


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,929 ✭✭✭Raiser


    Government - Rotten to the core/Absolute Scum in suits.

    Judiciary - Aged/Senile/Demonstrably Stupid/Occasionally unprosecutable Paedophiles/Rotten to the core.

    Gardaí - Indifferent/Lazy/Greedy/Profiteering/Rotten to the core.

    Catholic Church - 2nd Oldest Career/Perverse/Stunted/EVIL/Rotten to the core.

    Social Workers - Indifferent/Lazy/Greedy/Profiteering/Rotten to the core.

    The Devout Irish Catholic Gobshíte - Pious/Judgemental/Hypocritical/Self-Obsessed in their blind pursuit of a place in "Heaven"/Indifferent/Rotten to the core.

    The Irish Public - SILENT - APATHETIC - SPINELESS - HAPPY TO PAY FOR THE CHURCHES SINS - P A T H E T I C


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    I've just started reading this report, can someone maybe clarify this for me...

    In the opening pages of the report, there is a reference to civil law and canon law. Is the application of canon law upon the people of state not as unenforcable upon citizens as the Scouts Law???

    The right to bodily integrity, recognised by the Irish Supreme Court, comes from a Catholic Encyclical. There are some rare situations were Canon law is invoked, but they have to be approved by the courts first (very rare nowadays).

    I think in the report in question they are making the point that the Church's own rules have been violated by what has been done.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,291 ✭✭✭dresden8


    Nothing new here this has been going on for over 800 years

    http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/NORbeckett.htm
    In 1163, after a long spell in France, Henry arrived back in England. Henry was told that, while he had been away, there had been a dramatic increase in serious crime. The king's officials claimed that over a hundred murderers had escaped their proper punishment because they had claimed their right to be tried in church courts.

    Those that had sought the privilege of a trial in a Church court were not exclusively clergymen. Any man who had been trained by the church could choose to be tried by a church court. Even clerks who had been taught to read and write by the Church but had not gone on to become priests had a right to a Church court trial. This was to an offender's advantage, as church courts could not impose punishments that involved violence such as execution or mutilation. There were several examples of clergy found guilty of murder or robbery who only received "spiritual" punishments, such as suspension from office or banishment from the altar.

    The king decided that clergymen found guilty of serious crimes should be handed over to his courts. At first, the Archbishop agreed with Henry on this issue but after talking to other church leaders Becket changed his mind. Henry was furious when Becket began to assert that the church should retain control of punishing its own clergy. The king believed that Becket had betrayed him and was determined to obtain revenge.

    Henry knew how to sort this crap out.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    Raiser wrote: »
    Government - Rotten to the core/Absolute Scum in suits.

    Judiciary - Aged/Senile/Demonstrably Stupid/Occasionally unprosecutable Paedophiles/Rotten to the core.

    Gardaí - Indifferent/Lazy/Greedy/Profiteering/Rotten to the core.

    Catholic Church - 2nd Oldest Career/Perverse/Stunted/EVIL/Rotten to the core.

    Social Workers - Indifferent/Lazy/Greedy/Profiteering/Rotten to the core.

    The Devout Irish Catholic Gobshíte - Pious/Judgemental/Hypocritical/Self-Obsessed in their blind pursuit of a place in "Heaven"/Indifferent/Rotten to the core.

    The Irish Public - SILENT - APATHETIC - SPINELESS - HAPPY TO PAY FOR THE CHURCHES SINS - P A T H E T I C

    That's an awful big brush you have there for all that tarring & generalised sweeping.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 211 ✭✭imstrongerthanu


    That's an awful big brush you have there for all that tarring & generalised sweeping.
    Maybe he's angry?................

    Anyway what I want to now is will people serve time in jail?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,225 ✭✭✭Yitzhak Rabin


    Did anyone else see this documentary? It was absolutely harrowing stuff. Really made me feel sick and angry.

    If anyone has a link to a youtube video of it, I'd appreciate it.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭gnxx


    Raiser, it is sad, but you have pretty much hit the nail on the head.

    One section relates to an investigation by a young garda that was handled with speed and efficiency. The officer and his senior officer were so shocked by the evidence they quickly produced a file for the DPP. A clear undertone, is that these two officers, moved so quickly with the case, the normal interference from the church and others was too late to stop the prosecution.

    It is clear that senior clergy and gardai in this country perpetrated a second set of crimes in their attempt to hide the truth.

    This country was and continues to be corrupt. This report shows the most sickening example of this corruption. I'm not sure about rotten to the core, but there is certainly a lot of rot at the highest levels in this country.
    Raiser wrote: »
    Government - Rotten to the core/Absolute Scum in suits.

    Judiciary - Aged/Senile/Demonstrably Stupid/Occasionally unprosecutable Paedophiles/Rotten to the core.

    Gardaí - Indifferent/Lazy/Greedy/Profiteering/Rotten to the core.

    Catholic Church - 2nd Oldest Career/Perverse/Stunted/EVIL/Rotten to the core.

    Social Workers - Indifferent/Lazy/Greedy/Profiteering/Rotten to the core.

    The Devout Irish Catholic Gobshíte - Pious/Judgemental/Hypocritical/Self-Obsessed in their blind pursuit of a place in "Heaven"/Indifferent/Rotten to the core.

    The Irish Public - SILENT - APATHETIC - SPINELESS - HAPPY TO PAY FOR THE CHURCHES SINS - P A T H E T I C


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    For those that cannot find a copy of the report, here is the two parts report.
    Read if you can considering its terrible contents but remember this is probably only the tip of the iceberg as some of the abuse done and just covers Dublin as such.

    Download: Part One Summary of situation
    Download: Part Two The crimes and the culprits!

    I (to start with) hold the four scumbag men below responsible for the cover-up.
    They are (or were) deserving of prison time. Don't give a crap who they are/were!

    2iudv6v.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    I hope the priests dont make the same mistake this sunday and only ask the congregations to pray for the abusers , I gather people were walking out the last time.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin



    Anyway what I want to now is will people serve time in jail?

    Very few. Personally, I'd love to see O'Connell dragged in by the scruff of the neck, but its not going to happen.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 57 ✭✭Clanrickard


    Raiser wrote: »
    Government - Rotten to the core/Absolute Scum in suits.

    Judiciary - Aged/Senile/Demonstrably Stupid/Occasionally unprosecutable Paedophiles/Rotten to the core.

    Gardaí - Indifferent/Lazy/Greedy/Profiteering/Rotten to the core.

    Catholic Church - 2nd Oldest Career/Perverse/Stunted/EVIL/Rotten to the core.

    Social Workers - Indifferent/Lazy/Greedy/Profiteering/Rotten to the core.

    The Devout Irish Catholic Gobshíte - Pious/Judgemental/Hypocritical/Self-Obsessed in their blind pursuit of a place in "Heaven"/Indifferent/Rotten to the core.

    The Irish Public - SILENT - APATHETIC - SPINELESS - HAPPY TO PAY FOR THE CHURCHES SINS - P A T H E T I C

    That people saw fit to thank you for this ill considered rant strikes me as sad. I won't bother refuting such tripe but I will say this. The report commends lower ranking Guards for their pursuit of pedophile priests so they are not "rotten to the core" as you hysterically put it.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Raiser wrote: »
    Government - Rotten to the core/Absolute Scum in suits.

    Judiciary - Aged/Senile/Demonstrably Stupid/Occasionally unprosecutable Paedophiles/Rotten to the core.

    Gardaí - Indifferent/Lazy/Greedy/Profiteering/Rotten to the core.

    Catholic Church - 2nd Oldest Career/Perverse/Stunted/EVIL/Rotten to the core.

    Social Workers - Indifferent/Lazy/Greedy/Profiteering/Rotten to the core.

    The Devout Irish Catholic Gobshíte - Pious/Judgemental/Hypocritical/Self-Obsessed in their blind pursuit of a place in "Heaven"/Indifferent/Rotten to the core.

    The Irish Public - SILENT - APATHETIC - SPINELESS - HAPPY TO PAY FOR THE CHURCHES SINS - P A T H E T I C

    Thats your take, here's mine...

    Government - In the past far, far too afraid of the church and the congregations of voters who were swayed weekly by parish priest and pope!

    Judiciary - Far too afraid - and powerless to tackle, each on their own or as a unit, the systemic attitude that one does not accuse a priest and/or attempt to criminalise the church.

    Gardaí
    - Lower levels, sadly too powerless to tackle/take on/expose the higher levels in the past even though they knew these brutal crimes were being committed.
    The higher levels were also too afraid to take on the states stance (then, (1) of allowing the church to have too much internal influence in state affairs, (2) Allowed themselves to be far too influenced by the power of the pulpit directly and indirectly.)

    Catholic Church
    - STILL corrupt to the core. The dictator sitting of the throne of Rome presently, was the man that formulated the still present doctrine edict and put forth by the previous pope (and re-issued by himself as a reminder just under 2 years ago) that such sexual crimes were to be reported to the church authorities FIRST and it would be they (Rome) who would still decided if to go to a countries state police representatives.

    Social Workers
    - Were powerless to tackle and take on all the above. Of course they knew what was happening but in previous times, there was no papers/media that they could run to to force exposure and action - and the papers then were afraid of the above lot too as well!

    The Devout Irish Catholic Gobshíte
    -To be honest, most lived their lives like a ostrich with its head in the sand.
    "I didn't see it so it mustn't be true!"
    "Why are you making up such lies child!"
    "A priest would never do such things...!"
    Etc.
    ...and if they saw such evidence of such heinous activities, were afraid to speak up against the powerful church power culture.

    The Irish Public - Hadn't a clue for most of them. All the above did a damn good job of cover-up, lies, burying medical hospital and doctor reports and so on... so that the public couldn't be outraged and maybe motivated to take a stance and kick some bloody ass!

    ...that's the short summarised version!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭joolsveer


    Why are civil servants in departments covering health, justice and education not brought to task for their involvement in this scandal?

    I am certain that the commissioner criticised in the report was previously a very senior civil servant in the department of justice and was appointed commissioner as "a breath of fresh air" as the establishment did not want to promote a serving member of the garda to the post.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Djuret wrote: »
    I'm not sure I'd advise reading the full report, there's something thoroughly disturbing about prepubescent girls being raped with a crucifix up the backside.

    I wasn't really shocked by that much of what I heard (as we are used to it at this stage, seems like its been going on for an eternity).

    But I was genuinely shocked to hear about how they had raped young 9yr old girls with crucifixes in their vaginas and anus.
    It sounded like something straight out of the exorcist, and to think that film was banned in this country.

    Sick beyond belief.

    It was on all the major news channels last night, God only knows what people abroad must be thinking.
    The GF is not Irish and wasn't really aware of it before, she nearly fell off her seat hearing it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    If anyone is so disgusted by what they heard that they would like to make a protest, there is a very comprehensive site here, which will help you to streamline the process of "defecting from" (i.e. renoucning) the Catholic Church.

    http://www.countmeout.ie/why/


    Edit:
    by Nodin
    Very few. Personally, I'd love to see O'Connell dragged in by the scruff of the neck, but its not going to happen.

    If enough people leave, there is a good chance that justice will be done.
    If people do nothing, as per usual, nothing will be done.
    The Church are counting on Irish people to be shocked but to do nothing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    If McQuaid knew of these abuses and actively covered them up, he is as guilty of the crimes as the perpetrator.

    i wonder if we will see al the Schools named after him changing their names?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    I wasn't really shocked by that much of what I heard (as we are used to it at this stage, seems like its been going on for an eternity).

    But I was genuinely shocked to hear about how they had raped young 9yr old girls with crucifixes in their vaginas and anus.
    It sounded like something straight out of the exorcist, and to think that film was banned in this country.

    Sick beyond belief.

    It was on all the major news channels last night, God only knows what people abroad must be thinking.
    The GF is not Irish and wasn't really aware of it before, she nearly fell off her seat hearing it.
    and i bet you dont know who pays the compensation out to the victims of the churches child abuse ?well i will tell you-its you the irish tax payer


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    getz wrote: »
    and i bet you dont know who pays the compensation out to the victims of the churches child abuse ?well i will tell you-its you the irish tax payer

    Another reason to be cheerful about why I left and never went back


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 152 ✭✭jackthekipper


    Biggins wrote: »
    For those that cannot find a copy of the report, here is the two parts report.
    Read if you can considering its terrible contents but remember this is probably only the tip of the iceberg as some of the abuse done and just covers Dublin as such.

    Download: Part One Summary of situation
    Download: Part Two The crimes and the culprits!

    I (to start with) hold the four scumbag men below responsible for the cover-up.
    They are (or were) deserving of prison time. Don't give a crap who they are/were!

    2iudv6v.jpg


    But .. but . . they can't go to jail. Look at their nice hats and frocks, their also celibate virgins so their not unclean like the rest of us.
    Seriously, I haven't read the report yet so i don't know to what extent their involvement is or was, but you're right that people have to go to jail no matter what position they hold, if not it says alot about Irish society.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭herya


    getz wrote: »
    and i bet you dont know who pays the compensation out to the victims of the churches child abuse ?well i will tell you-its you the irish tax payer

    The Irish taxpayer should get all the church schools back for this. Fair and simple.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    this is on the BBC news tex about it,the inquiry into abuse by catholic priests in ireland has disclosed that the vatican ignored formal requests for information, the inquiry asked for details of reports on abuse sent to the vatican by the dublin archdiocese in 2006,the vatican did not reply but told the irish foreign affairs department, the request ;had not gone through appropriat diplomatic channels;the inquiry condemned church leaders for covering up abuse for decades,


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    ...I haven't read the report yet so i don't know to what extent their involvement is or was, but you're right that people have to go to jail no matter what position they hold, if not it says alot about Irish society.

    Sadly, we know already how criminals and their like are treated in Ireland.
    Usually with buckets of extra cash, perks, and moved sideways to different jobs!

    Sickening. This culture HAS to change or as a nation we will get nowhere progressively.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    getz wrote: »
    this is on the BBC news tex about it,the inquiry into abuse by catholic priests in ireland has disclosed that the vatican ignored formal requests for information, the inquiry asked for details of reports on abuse sent to the vatican by the dublin archdiocese in 2006,the vatican did not reply but told the irish foreign affairs department, the request ;had not gone through appropriat diplomatic channels;the inquiry condemned church leaders for covering up abuse for decades,

    Given that they are currently trying to cope with their own close to home problems, this comes as no further surprise.
    See: Here or here

    That however does NOT excuse their denials. They should be held to account - no if's, no but's, no excuses!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59,194 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    The good old church, a recruitment and breeding and hiding ground for paedophiles


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 152 ✭✭jackthekipper


    DeValera must be so proud up there in heaven of the priveleged positions results.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    silverharp wrote: »
    I hope the priests dont make the same mistake this sunday and only ask the congregations to pray for the abusers

    Ah, sure a few prayers never did any harm. Or good, for that matter!


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