You can lie without lying,according to the Catholic church.

Xluna

I'm speechless after reading this article.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1126/breaking86.htm

How can anyone trust these degenerate snakes?

“John calls to the parish priest to make a complaint about the behaviour of one of his curates. The parish priest sees him coming but does not want to see him because he considers John to be a troublemaker. He sends another of his curates to answer the door. John asks the curate if the parish priest is in. The curate replies that he is not.”

The commission added: “This is clearly untrue but in the Church’s view it is not a lie because, when the curate told John that the parish priest was not in, he mentally reserved the words '…to you’

In Mrs Collins’s case, the Dublin archdiocese said in a 1997 press statement that it had co-operated with gardai where her complaint of abuse was concerned. She was upset by it as she had reason to believe otherwise. Her support priest Fr James Norman made inquiries and later told gardaí he that when he did so, the archdiocese replied “we never said we co-operated fully” - placing emphasis on the word ‘fully’ - with the gardaí..”

NothingMan

Xluna wrote: »

I'm speechless after reading this article.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1126/breaking86.htm

How can anyone trust these degenerate snakes?

“John calls to the parish priest to make a complaint about the behaviour of one of his curates. The parish priest sees him coming but does not want to see him because he considers John to be a troublemaker. He sends another of his curates to answer the door. John asks the curate if the parish priest is in. The curate replies that he is not.”

The commission added: “This is clearly untrue but in the Church’s view it is not a lie because, when the curate told John that the parish priest was not in, he mentally reserved the words '…to you’.”

To a Judge "No I never killed anyone"

reserved in my head "on a Tuesday".

That's not lying right?

drkpower

Xluna wrote: »

How can anyone trust these degenerate snakes?

Its a bit jesuitical/political alright, but, come on, its hardly the most damning evidence to show that the Catholic church are not all angels.

eoin5

Xluna wrote: »

I'm speechless after reading this article.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1126/breaking86.htm

How can anyone trust these degenerate snakes?

“John calls to the parish priest to make a complaint about the behaviour of one of his curates. The parish priest sees him coming but does not want to see him because he considers John to be a troublemaker. He sends another of his curates to answer the door. John asks the curate if the parish priest is in. The curate replies that he is not.”

The commission added: “This is clearly untrue but in the Church’s view it is not a lie because, when the curate told John that the parish priest was not in, he mentally reserved the words '…to you’.”

Huh? Thats just normal lying...

Rb

Oh I see it's reserved for the clerics? Well, how convenient!

I suppose we must not forget though, these are the same people who were able to do absolutely digusting acts to innocent little children without it, seemingly, being unlawful, immoral or a sin.

If there is a God, and these monsters are his representatives, I would be much happier in hell.

5uspect

It's really like a big kids game isn't it?
And they expect people to take them seriously.

Zillah

I find it all the more amusing because they use an example of a priest ignoring a "trouble maker" who is seeking him out.

A troublemaker...comes to a priest for help...and rather than meet with this person and try to help him not be a troublemaker, he turns him away. WWJD. You could practically bake a cake with the hypocrisy.

Kudos on the use of the term 'degenerate snakes' by the way. Very appropriate:

that diocesan funds ARE (report’s emphasis) not used for such a purpose; that he had not said that diocesan funds WERE not used for such a purpose. By using the present tense he had not excluded the possibility that diocesan funds had been used for such purpose in the past

They're reaching Orwellian degrees of mental gymnastics here.

time42play

So an untruth is not a lie... I have to wonder what other useful little get-outs they're hiding! Pity they never extended this theory of "mental reservation" to their congregations - would've saved me some time in confession as a child!

Rb

NothingMan wrote: »

To a Judge "No I never killed anyone"

reserved in my head "on a Tuesday".

That's not lying right?

Lol, indeed.

Local Catholic priest : "No! I have never fiddled with that kid!" in his head "..."with an elvis costume on".

Xluna

This is straight out of a Father Ted episode.

"The money was just resting in my account."

Twin-go

They are a bunch of w4nkers.

The physical and mental abuse people suffered from them was in itself unimaginable but the way they systematicly blocked Garda investigations, protected the abusors, bad mouthed the abusees, preached condesendingly to their congragations and being holier than thou is unforgivable.

The church as we know it should be forced to disband. They should not be listined to or trusted ever again. They are a currupt, malignant cancer on our society. The sooner this is realised by the masses the better for us all.

We don't need them.

eoin5

Reminds me of Homer:

If I cant see it, its not illegal

Dades

Religion: it makes perfect sense (to you).

krudler

Catholisicm: where touching yourself is a sin (thats why the priests do it for you)

bah-dum-tsh!

robindch

Irish times wrote:

According to the Commission of Investigation report, “mental reservation is a concept developed and much discussed over the centuries, which permits a church man knowingly to convey a misleading impression to another person without being guilty of lying”.

Perhaps the state should build a "mental reservation" for these guys?

Something like the Fastnet Rock would be a good start.

GLaDOS

Absoluetely vile institution, to some out with such a weak justification for blatant covering up is pathetic.

Turtwig

Religious folks are really good at this sort of spin on words, making it appear like they are saying one thing but are actually saying another.
William Lane Craig, is the champion in chief at this.

condra

This takes the bizarreness of the RCC to levels approaching Scientology.

GLaDOS

condra wrote: »

This takes the bizarreness of the RCC to levels approaching Scientology.

Not to mention the sinisterness

Xluna

What I find most galling about this is the fact that they actually believe the masses are stupid enough to accept this explanation. It's insulting to ones intelligence. I can't understand why they just don't admit they did wrong,get their house in order and ask for forgiveness. But no,they decide to compound their shame by continuing to excuse themselves with semantical manipulation. I suppose it's good for atheism at least.

MackDeToaster

Absolutely disgusted at the archbishop on rte.

When hit by a hard question by one lady, he could only say 'I said someone would say that', but that wasn't exactly a rebuttal now was it. Pathetic evasion. She should have followed up on it and hammered the git.

And when asked straight up whether he was going to sack the bishops responsible, he just copped out and said he'd hope they'd be thinking about what they've done.

FFS, grow some balls and take responsibility and sack the fcukers, they've already demonstrated they don't give a **** and can't be trusted and it's well past time that they be trusted to do anything by themselves.

These fcukers should be done for aiding and abetting criminals and perverting the cause of justice, plain and simple. And for all the archbishops supposed shock and horror, he's plainly not very intent on actually doing anything. That pathetic display was just more passing the buck and an abject failure to accept any responsibility by the archbishop, the same ole in other words :mad:

Mark Hamill

What is the official reason why the guards haven't just arrested the priests involved in these type of scandals, like they would anyone else in the same situation? You have those guilty of commmiting the crimes, and those guilty of perverting the court of justice to protect those guilty in the first place. Why is nothing done?

Red Sleeping Beauty

Can this please be the final straw so that all influence of participation the Church and its institutions have within the state are now removed? Please?

robindch

Mark Hamill wrote: »

What is the official reason why the guards haven't just arrested the priests involved in these type of scandals, like they would anyone else in the same situation? You have those guilty of commmiting the crimes, and those guilty of perverting the court of justice to protect those guilty in the first place. Why is nothing done?

Remember that the report released yesterday is evidence of wrong-doing, it's not a conviction for it, so nobody is legally guilty of anything (yet). The police will have to refer cases to the DPP who'll decide if there's enough evidence for a prosecution to have a reasonable chance of success. At which point it'll go back to the police for them to create a formal book of evidence, and at the end of which process, arrest warrants can be issued.

BTW, I believe that the redactions in the report (and the consequent delay since May in publishing this) are present because the DPP reckons that he might be able to catch a number of the priestly abusers whose names came up during the investigation. This is separate from the allegations of a cover-up which, if pursued, are likely to result in serious, and possibly fatal, consequences for what little status remains to the catholic church in this country. It would certainly make memorable, if grim, television, to see a bishop or two being lead away in handcuffs to face the law they have avoided thus far.

Somebody more lawyerly than me may have more to add or fix to the above.

.

Flamed Diving

Bomb the vatican. (i can hear you thinking it too)

robindch

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Bomb the vatican. (i can hear you thinking it too)

Calm down.

If you're upset, then buy a sandwich-board and stand outside the Papal Nunciature at 183 Navan Road.

The solution to violence is not more violence or inflammatory rhetoric.

Flamed Diving

It was clearly in jest, besides I threw in my "punish-proof" add-on in the parentheses.

Genghiz Cohen

robindch wrote: »

The solution to violence is not more violence or inflammatory rhetoric.

robindch

Flamed Diving wrote: »

It was clearly in jest

No doubt, but I don't really think that this topic is something one can joke about.

It's Friday. I probably need a beer.

Flamed Diving

robindch wrote: »

No doubt, but I don't really think that this topic is something one can joke about.

It's Friday. I probably need a beer.

I hear ya, let me get ya a pint. (of water...)

Panrich

Alan Rouge wrote: »

Can this please be the final straw so that all influence of participation the Church and its institutions have within the state are now removed? Please?

Doubtful...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1107/1224258280067.html

MrPudding

Rb wrote: »

If there is a God, and these monsters are his representatives, I would be much happier in hell.

IMO the RCC is firm evidence against the existence of god. If god did exist do you think he would allow this despicable, disgusting, lying, child raping, crime covering up abomination of an organisation to exist? IF he does exist then the fact that the RCC has not been scorched from the face of the earth means he is as bad as they and I would want no part of him.

MrP

The Mad Hatter

So the Catholic Church in Ireland have shown themselves to have all the intellectual maturity of Bill & Ted.

We're innocent...NOT!!!

kelly1

Folks, as a faithful Catholic, I'm totally sickened by the Murphy report. Any bishop who deliberately covered up the abuse of children is, as far as I'm concerned, more guilty than the paedophile priests. I'd be glad to see them carted off to jail in handcuffs.

I know you guys don't do religion, but I believe that when these bishops and priests will appear before God on judgment day, they're going to get a MAJOR roasting for the children that were abused and also for causing people to leave the Church.

Personally I'll be going to Mass on Sunday because I'm not going to let these bishops and priests get between me and Jesus. If I left the Church, I'd be playing right in the devil's hands.

Sorry for the relgious stuff, but just wanted to express a different opinion.

Zillah

Flamed Diving wrote: »

I hear ya, let me get ya a pint. (of water...)

I'm kind of liking this new not lying system.

I forgive the Catholic Church (if they all committ seppuku).

lmaopml

kelly1 wrote: »

Folks, as a faithful Catholic, I'm totally sickened by the Murphy report. Any bishop who deliberately covered up the abuse of children is, as far as I'm concerned, more guilty than the paedophile priests. I'd be glad to see them carted off to jail in handcuffs.

I know you guys don't do religion, but I believe that when these bishops and priests will appear before God on judgment day, they're going to get a MAJOR roasting for the children that were abused and also for causing people to leave the Church.

Personally I'll be going to Mass on Sunday because I'm not going to let these bishops and priests get between me and Jesus. If I left the Church, I'd be playing right in the devil's hands.

Sorry for the relgious stuff, but just wanted to express a different opinion.

Don't apologise for the 'religious stuff'..! Your not responsible ALL on your own....lol..

...and good on you! trying to be reasonable..

If we were to hold everybody responsible for everything within the 'tags' they give themselves, well....'there are very few of us that shouldn't blush'.......We're human beings at the end of the day.

It's a new age. And hopefully a better more inclusive one.

Zillah

kelly1 wrote: »

Personally I'll be going to Mass on Sunday because I'm not going to let these bishops and priests get between me and Jesus. If I left the Church, I'd be playing right in the devil's hands.

On one hand you say you're not going to let these wicked Bishops and Priests get between you and Jesus, but then you say you won't leave the Church, thereby essentially putting another buffer between you and Jesus. Surely to have a relationship with Jesus all you need is the Bible and prayer? What has this criminal, child abusing Church to offer you? Afterall, these men are the Church, unless you consider the various buildings and relics to be of defining purpose.

lmaopml

Zillah wrote: »

On one hand you say you're not going to let these wicked Bishops and Priests get between you and Jesus, but then you say you won't leave the Church, thereby essentially putting another buffer between you and Jesus. Surely to have a relationship with Jesus all you need is the Bible and prayer? What has this criminal, child abusing Church to offer you? Afterall, these men are the Church, unless you consider the various buildings and relics to be of defining purpose.

Your understanding zillah is clearly limited. What is your goal? Kelly is open to ridicule for something that is neither hers/his, mine or your fault....? Every single Catholic who takes it seriously today in Ireland is feeling pretty darn ****ty! ...but yet, most of us know somebody who was 'Catholic' who went through '****ty' times and still brought us up well and ok...and that we 'know' had an outward and good faith.....and passed it on, even if there are 'revelations' about the baddies that were in our society..

It's a reconciliation of the heart is going on here.......a healing. Time to take stock of our past and our future??? No?

..or is it time to tell people in general that they have no right to believe?

Sam Vimes

kelly1 wrote: »

Folks, as a faithful Catholic, I'm totally sickened by the Murphy report. Any bishop who deliberately covered up the abuse of children is, as far as I'm concerned, more guilty than the paedophile priests. I'd be glad to see them carted off to jail in handcuffs.

I know you guys don't do religion, but I believe that when these bishops and priests will appear before God on judgment day, they're going to get a MAJOR roasting for the children that were abused and also for causing people to leave the Church.

Personally I'll be going to Mass on Sunday because I'm not going to let these bishops and priests get between me and Jesus. If I left the Church, I'd be playing right in the devil's hands.

Sorry for the relgious stuff, but just wanted to express a different opinion.

The thing is kelly that your religion teaches that we're all sinful, from the paedophile to the guy who thought about his neighbour's wife and they're all going to get off the hook as long as they believe some Jewish guy raised from the dead. Mad system eh?

GLaDOS

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

So the Catholic Church in Ireland have shown themselves to have all the intellectual maturity of Bill & Ted.

We're innocent...NOT!!!

The comparison I'm thinking of is a kid lying with his fingers crossed behind his back, it's like it's a ****ing game to them

Zillah

lmaopml wrote: »

Your understanding zillah is clearly limited. What is your goal? Kelly is open to ridicule for something that is neither hers/his, mine or your fault....? Every single Catholic who takes it seriously today in Ireland is feeling pretty darn ****ty! ...but yet, most of us know somebody who was 'Catholic' who went through '****ty' times and still brought us up well and ok...and that we 'know' had an outward and good faith.....and passed it on, even if there are 'revelations' about the baddies that were in our society..

It's a reconciliation of the heart is going on here.......a healing. Time to take stock of our past and our future??? No?

..or is it time to tell people in general that they have no right to believe?

Are you drunk? I fail to see how anything I said could be deemed to be ridicule (for once).

eblistic

Fair play to the investigators for getting Desmond Connell to go into this twisted "mental reservation" technique.

How they managed to get members of the hierarchy to admit to so much is extrordinary when it seems, at other times, some went out of their way to avoid cooperation (non more-so than Connell himself).

fatmammycat

kelly1 wrote: »

Folks, as a faithful Catholic, I'm totally sickened by the Murphy report. Any bishop who deliberately covered up the abuse of children is, as far as I'm concerned, more guilty than the paedophile priests. I'd be glad to see them carted off to jail in handcuffs.

I know you guys don't do religion, but I believe that when these bishops and priests will appear before God on judgment day, they're going to get a MAJOR roasting for the children that were abused and also for causing people to leave the Church.

Personally I'll be going to Mass on Sunday because I'm not going to let these bishops and priests get between me and Jesus. If I left the Church, I'd be playing right in the devil's hands.

Sorry for the relgious stuff, but just wanted to express a different opinion.

I think you are actually condoning that institute by attending its weekly club, and if you believe in the Devil -as you clearly do- that is right up his alley I imagine. You don't need to be Catholic or go to a curch to have a relationship with Jesus or God, you apparently you can do that anywhere. But by PHYSICALLY supporting the church, you are making it stronger, when it really needs to be kicked to death at this stage. It's not good enough to leave it to judgement day, those monsters operated in there here and now, subjecting real living breathing people to unspeakable horrors, lying about it, spreading fear and torment without a care. Grow a spine, step up, renounce them and their club.
Sorry for the anger, just wanted to express how I really feel on the subject.

5uspect

I wonder how much this mental reservation is prevalent in the Catholic Church?
And if it is something that's taught in seminaries then why should we believe a word Catholic Clergy say?

EDIT:
Ah the Catholic Encyclopaedia.

PDN

5uspect wrote: »

I wonder how much this mental reservation is prevalent in the Catholic Church?

There is a reason why the word 'jesuitical' entered the English language. http://www.fromoldbooks.org/Grose-VulgarTongue/j/jesuitical.html


Although, in fairness to the Jesuits, they developed the practice of equivocation to try to avoid being burnt at the stake by Elizabethen Protestants who, while condemning the Jesuits for being evasive, apparently saw nothing unChristian in persecuting and executing anyone with whom they happened to disagree!

Flamed Diving

Sadly, you find that type of doublethink behaviour across all ideologies. Spiritual or otherwise. Human nature, I suppose.

fatmammycat

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Sadly, you find that type of doublethink behaviour across all ideologies. Spiritual or otherwise. Human nature, I suppose.

True, I know a PR gal who talks in the most convoluted twisty manner-she can change direction mid sentence. However, she's not holding herself up as God's repersentative on earth or as a moral guardian. (Tricksy talking to her though, like Yoda)

lmaopml

Zillah wrote: »

Are you drunk? I fail to see how anything I said could be deemed to be ridicule (for once).

ROFL:pac: My apologies if I misinterpreted you.

Carry on..lol..