When did we get a soul

patmartino

At what point in our evolution did god give us a soul. At some stage god must have given a soul to a child.


Did neanderthals have souls?, given that they existed 30,000 years ago with us and may have bred with us.

Turtwig

Wishing you the very best on your holiday.
(Assuming I beat the lock.
I did??
Woot!!)

homer911

Thats one good reason what I believe in Creation, not general evolution as it is sometimes applied to mankind

God created us in his own image..

Turtwig

Horner,

Francis Collins, an evangelical Christian, gave a beautiful answer to a question very similar to the OPs.... I just can't find it.:mad:

Iwasfrozen

homer911 wrote: »

Thats one good reason what I believe in Creation, not general evolution as it is sometimes applied to mankind

God created us in his own image..

Creationism ? Really ?
You know even the vatican is no longer creationist.

Soul Winner

patmartino wrote: »

At what point in our evolution did god give us a soul. At some stage god must have given a soul to a child.

Around about the time He created Adam.

condra

I don't see why this thread should be locked. I see that the OP, patmartino, was banned. I hope not for this thread.

Many Christians subscribe to the theory of evolution, so for them, surely the question is relevant to their faith.

Perhaps they believe that all living things have souls, or that there was a defining point when God gave souls to early man.

I would be genuinely interested in hearing their thoughts on the matter. (Christian evolutionists)

I don't see why the "difficult" questions should not be discussed, as long as people are respectful towards each other.

PDN

condra wrote: »

I don't see why this thread should be locked. I see that the OP, patmartino, was banned. I hope not for this thread.

Many Christians subscribe to the theory of evolution, so for them, surely the question is relevant to their faith.

Perhaps they believe that all living things have souls, or that there was a defining point when God gave souls to early man.

I would be genuinely interested in hearing their thoughts on the matter. (Christian evolutionists)

I don't see why the "difficult" questions should not be discussed, as long as people are respectful towards each other.

If you have questions or comments about moderating policy or decisions then please send a PM to the mods concerned.

patmartino was banned because he is a repeated troll who has been banned from the entire boards.ie site on numerous occasions. He keeps registering under new names (in itself a bannable offence) to keep on trolling.

Turtwig

PDN wrote: »

If you have questions or comments about moderating policy or decisions then please send a PM to the mods concerned.

patmartino was banned because he is a repeated troll who has been banned from the entire boards.ie site on numerous occasions. He keeps registering under new names (in itself a bannable offence) to keep on trolling.

I don't think he was appealing pat's ban (who would), I think he was referring to my comment which wished pat a nice holiday and hoped it beat the lock.

I think he's just genuinely interested in resolving the whole injection of soul problem into evolution and pleading that the thread be left open.
Francis Collins, is annoying me now, because his explanation was brilliant...but I can't find it!:mad:

condra

PDN, I didn't know patmartinos history. I don't condone trolling, and I think the moderation on boards is generally very good, at least in the Religion & Spirituality sections.

However, I still think the question is interesting, and I would be keen to hear peoples thoughts on it.

Like with any other philosophy/theory/viewpoint, I think it's productive to address the difficult questions.

Nevyn

ensoulment is tought to happen when a child draws it's first breath, the notion I belives comes from genises and god breathing life inot adam.

philologos

Where does this idea come from?

Slav

From modern Judaism I guess. Not something that Christians believe anyway.

Joe1919

........I was lying asleep on the top of Circe's house, and never thought of coming down again by the great staircase but fell right off the roof and broke my neck, so my soul down to the house of Hades.......

The Odyssey By Homer
http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.11.xi.html

Many scholars (eg Terence Irwin) attribute Homer's Odyssey as the oldest reference to the soul. (800 BCE) (afaik)

Zillah

Soul Winner wrote: »

Around about the time He created Adam.

Just to clarify, are you a Biblical literalist?

If not, when this Adam person was born, was he given birth to by a souless animal?

Thaedydal wrote: »

ensoulment is tought to happen when a child draws it's first breath, the notion I belives comes from genises and god breathing life inot adam.

Its not Biblical, certainly. Are you sure you're not getting this from Exalted?

homer911

Soul Winner wrote: »

Around about the time He created Adam.

Having not thought about it a lot up to now, I think Soul Winner sums it up pretty well for me. There seems to be clear evidence of general evolution in the world, but when it comes to Man, I would definitely be a Creationist. This theory sits comfortably with me and is also consistent with the OPs question - that Man is in fact a distinct creation and not an evolution from an ape, and therefore at no time was Man without a soul.

BTW, I believe that Man is the only living creature with a soul, so anyone who expects to meet their pet cat or dog or whatever in Heaven is going to be disappointed

Turtwig

It is a common misconception (thanks to the hardline creationists) but we didn't evolve from Ape.
Both us and Apes occupy the same branch on the family tree but our twigs then go in different directions.
Humans beings are still distinct.


This is the best "kiddie" illustration I could find.
The creationist "kiddie" illustrations are appalling :mad: - no wonder there's such confusion.

ironingbored

homer911 wrote: »

that Man is in fact a distinct creation and not an evolution from an ape, and therefore at no time was Man without a soul.

We did not evolve from apes but rather share a common ancestor with apes.

Homo Sapiens are apes though.

As for when humans were bestowed with a soul, I do really know what a soul is. What is the definition of a soul in the biblical/religious context?

Turtwig

ironingbored wrote: »

We did not evolve from apes but rather share a common ancestor with apes.

Homo Sapiens are apes though.

Just to clarify in case anyone is confused:

Apes in the sense Ironingbored is using is referring to any member of Hominoidea family of primates.
apes that we colloquially refer to are actually members of that Ape family described above.
It's one of those sciency thingy that seems needlessly complicated but actually has a good reason? Right???

So yeah homo sapiens are apes when referrring to the family of primates.
But they aren't apes when referring to the apes you were thinking of Horner.


Could someone with a background or better knowledge in biology clarify this a bit better, please?

PDN

ironingbored wrote: »

As for when humans were bestowed with a soul, I do really know what a soul is. What is the definition of a soul in the biblical/religious context?

The Hebrew word for 'soul' is nephesh, and it simply means to be a living creature. It is used in the Old Testament of animals as well as humans.

The New Testament Greek word translated as 'soul' is psyche. It's meaning is pretty clear by how it used in English - it refers to the mind. Psychiatry deals with illnesses of the mind, psychology deals with patterns of thinking and their resulting behaviour, psychadelic is something that blows your mind!

So, a biblical definition of 'soul' would appear to be our mind, emotions and will. These attributes are also shared by many animals.

What the Bible does appear to teach uniquely about mankind is that we possess a spirit (Greek - pneuma). This is the part of us that enables us to communicate with God, and indeed to be made in the image of God who is Himself Spirit. This is what distinguishes us from other animals.

Turtwig

PDN wrote: »

What the Bible does appear to teach uniquely about mankind is that we possess a spirit (Greek - pneuma). This is the part of us that enables us to communicate with God, and indeed to be made in the image of God who is Himself Spirit. This is what distinguishes us from other animals.

Blasted Book!!

Bang on the button again.:mad::)

You may remember I posted a thread ages ago asking do animals have faith?
Well, it turns out that currently to the best of my knowledge science says they can't. More so, humans seem to be the only species capable of teaching by narrative. (The exact term eludes me)
Basically nearly all other animals learn by processes of imitation or something similar. Humans on the other hand can tell stories to one another what this is means is that while a chimp can learn arithmetic, the chimp can only learn it by copying the actions of someone/something else (including itself!). Humans, on the other hand can assign narrative to almost anything hence they can tell each other stories about arithmetic. A "story" in this sense might be the rules of division. In order for a Chimp to learn division it must watch either a chimp do it, or imitate it itself (that's what researchers usually do to train the first chimp). Humans on the other hand can orally pass down stories which means that in theory any human can learn anything that's been previously learned.
So what does this mean for communication with God? Well, as animals can only learn by imitating stuff, it is unlikely that they can pass on the their knowledge of God. After all, how does learn of God by watching other imitate Him, however they may accomplish that? For this reason only humans are capable of passing down the stories of God(s) and their creations. And by that logic, they must the only ones aware of his presence as animals simply don't seem to show that capacity.

PDN

While I would like to encourage Malty's belief in the accuracy of the Bible I should, in fairness, point out that, biblically speaking, much belief in gods and religions would be classed as soulish rather than spiritual.

The biblical teaching appears to be that our spirits are rendered dead by our sin (this is how Adam died when He sinned - spiritually rather than physically). When we place our faith in Christ then our spirits are 'quickened' or made alive. This then gives us the ability to communicate with God and to understand the things of God.

“But the natural [psychikos or 'soulish'] man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)

This is one of the reasons why many non-catholic Christians feel uncomfortable with ornate cathedrals, incense & chants etc. These things are designed to stir the emotions, but are essentially soulish rather than spiritual. The same applies to evangelists' emotive preaching and the use of music to provoke an emotive response.

postcynical

PDN wrote: »

“But the natural [psychikos or 'soulish'] man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)

This is one of the reasons why many non-catholic Christians feel uncomfortable with ornate cathedrals, incense & chants etc. These things are designed to stir the emotions, but are essentially soulish rather than spiritual. The same applies to evangelists' emotive preaching and the use of music to provoke an emotive response.

PDN, would you say appeals to the intellect rather than to the emotions are soulish?

As for the discomfort with these Catholic practices, I think many Catholics empathise. I found these very difficult to accept when I converted but am increasingly more comfortable with them. These are very potent prayers. Joyous prayer almost always leads to a burst of singing! I think our emotions can enhance our prayer and we can pray through emotions and intellect.

PDN

postcynical wrote: »

PDN, would you say appeals to the intellect rather than to the emotions are soulish?

If the intellect then overrules the spirit, yes. For example, when we rationalise to avoid obeying a clear biblical instruction.

Soul Winner

Zillah wrote: »

Just to clarify, are you a Biblical literalist?

What the? Zillah? In here? Well I never :rolleyes:

I'm only a Biblical literalist where the Bible is intended to be taken literally. In the case of the creation of Adam I believe God created something different to what was the norm up to that point. And even if Adam is simply an evolutionary leap from a more primitive primate then it was a this point that God made the infusion of the soul. I don't believe it happened that way though. I believe Adam was a new project for God. He was created to bring back order to the earth. An order that was disrupted by an earlier cataclysm which caused the earth to become without form and void. There are many different ways one could interpret the early chapters of Genesis but even a literal rendering of Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 leaves a vast gulf of time that can be allowed. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". Gen 1:1 "And the earth became a waste and a desolation." Gen 1:2

This gap is also supported by other verses of scripture.

It states in Isaiah that God created the earth not in vain i.e. 'Tohu' - waste -same word transalted without form in Genesis 1:2

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain (Tohu), he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18

And Jeremiah reports seeing the earth when there was no man but that there were cities, literally meeting places for intelligent beings.

"I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end." Jeremiah 4:23-27


The I will not make a full end tack-on I believe refers to the intention to create Adam.

So if there is a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 then that leaves open the possibility to all kinds of evolution. Who knows how much time elapsed in between this gap? I believe that from Genesis 1:2 onwards is a re-creation process. God calls the seeds forth from the ground. Seeds that were already there. He tells Adam and Eve to re-plenish the earth. If they were the first to inhabit the earth then why say re-plenish the earth instead of just plenish the earth?

So it doesn't really matter what way you read Genesis, be it figurative or literal, God, assuming He exists, He is quite capable of breathing soulness into whatever beings He so chooses.

Zillah wrote: »

If not, when this Adam person was born, was he given birth to by a souless animal?

Even if that is how it happened the answer is still 'No'. God gave the soul. It states in the New Testament that God made Adam a little lower than the angels. I believe that He did this for the simple reason that He wanted faith. Angels were given their high estate and had no conflict with flesh and blood. They had clarity of reality from the get go and yet some of them turned on God. Adam, although uncorrupted by sin, still needed God to come down at the cool of the day, to re-charge his batteries so to speak. Angels were given a totally eternal capacity and when they turned on God it caused the creation to turn to ruin. I believe that from Genesis 1:2 on is just God's reconstruction project. I believe God started over with Adam, and wants to populate the void left in heaven by the rebellious angels, with the chosen of Adam's seed who sins were purged by the blood of Christ and who will be brought to completion through faith in Him.

Adam fell at the first hurdle because He believed a lie instead of the truth. God said you will die and the serpent said you won't die. Even if you regard this story as metaphorical the principle is still the same, trust what God says over everything else. Ever since this fall God has been reconstructing the mess, culminating in Christ’s work on the cross. Now God can get back to what He said at the beginning, 'Let us make Adam in our own image'. God's spirit is making people over in His image everyday when people accept the work of the Savior. God views these people as being just like Christ in the same way that He viewed the whole race of mankind as just like Adam - a sinner. From one man's sin came death to all mankind, but from one man's life comes salvation for those who do what Adam didn't do - trust what God says, not anything else.

Bit long winded I know but I can't do concise answers

condra

Apparently many Christians subscribe to evolution.

Personally, I am most interested to hear one of these people state when they think man got a soul.

lmaopml

condra wrote: »

Apparently many Christians subscribe to evolution.

Personally, I am most interested to hear one of these people state when they think man got a soul.

Why, when Adam was created....of course! We have inherited the ability to know good and evil from Adam. Good and Evil are 'distinctly' human concepts.....and the battle is 'raging'..lol...

Your question though, kind of presupposes that we should know the direct linear time and place.....when even evolution itself - while by all accounts is more that just a 'theory', but nonetheless is not an exact 'observational' science!

...but fascinating and very beautiful....

condra

There are many Christians who do not believe in Adam and Eve, and who believe that man evolved from apes.

I would like to ask these people, when they believe man got a soul? (or when man most likely got a soul)

It's not a trick question.

Fanny Cradock

condra wrote: »

There are many Christians who do not believe in Adam and Eve, and who believe that man evolved from apes.

I would like to ask these people, when they believe man got a soul? (or when man most likely got a soul)

It's not a trick question.

PDN covered this, no? I would think Adam always had a soul - just like cats, dogs and any other animal you care to mention. (Wheter one believes there was an individual called Adam, or he is a fictional but representative character of some real event, really doesn´t matter.) At what point Adam (or mankind) was given a spirit is not known. But at a guess, I would say it was late on a Monday morning - probably after lunchtime, actually.

condra

Clearly, you guys don't like addressing the hard questions in a frank and honest manner.

Shame.

Turtwig

condra wrote: »

Clearly, you guys don't like addressing the hard questions in a frank and honest manner.

Shame.

PDN gave an excellent answer already, too lazy to check if it was on this thread.:p

getz

homer911 wrote: »

Having not thought about it a lot up to now, I think Soul Winner sums it up pretty well for me. There seems to be clear evidence of general evolution in the world, but when it comes to Man, I would definitely be a Creationist. This theory sits comfortably with me and is also consistent with the OPs question - that Man is in fact a distinct creation and not an evolution from an ape, and therefore at no time was Man without a soul.

BTW, I believe that Man is the only living creature with a soul, so anyone who expects to meet their pet cat or dog or whatever in Heaven is going to be disappointed

must disagree with you there,all animals have a soul,many people who are involved with the paranormal will tell you they will often see the souls of dead pets moving around with living people [check out the spiritualist church] i myself has only seen the souls of dead people, most major religions will agree with me on that.

Puck

Can we all please get on the same page when it comes to what we mean when we refer to "soul"? I think PDN gave a good definition.

Soul Winner

getz wrote: »

must disagree with you there,all animals have a soul,many people who are involved with the paranormal will tell you they will often see the souls of dead pets moving around with living people [check out the spiritualist church] i myself has only seen the souls of dead people, most major religions will agree with me on that.

But the OP asked, when did we get a soul. The scripture states clearly that God breathed (Neshamah) into Adam's nostrils and Adam became a living soul. That is the scriptural answer to the OP.

Condra wants to know the answer in evolutionary terms and specifically asked Christians who don't believe the Adam and Eve story to answer the OP. Nobody has bothered to do that that and now she/he is tarring us all with the same brush, claiming that we don't like addressing the hard questions in a frank and honest manner. Which is it Condra? You did ask Christians who don't believe in Adam and Eve, not Christians in general. Most of the other Christians have answered the OP already, sorry if our answers don't fit in with the way you see things.

When do you think we got a soul?

condra

getz wrote: »

must disagree with you there,all animals have a soul,many people who are involved with the paranormal will tell you they will often see the souls of dead pets moving around with living people [check out the spiritualist church] i myself has only seen the souls of dead people, most major religions will agree with me on that.

Although flawed in many ways (see below), I love the concept of all living things having a soul, eternal life, etc. I read a book* written by someone who had a NDE, and she described plants and animals in her "afterlife". The explanation was of an eternal life possessed by all living things, and the way it was presented was beautiful and touching.

(*Embraced By The Light by Betty J. Eadie.)

__

Soul Winner wrote: »

Condra wants to know the answer in evolutionary terms and specifically asked Christians who don't believe the Adam and Eve story to answer the OP. Nobody has bothered to do that that

Thanks for baring with me on this. Let me assure you, that my intentions are not to provoke anyone, but to see how people reconcile faith and science on this specific issue.

When do you think we got a soul?

I haven't been a Christian in a long time, but I was once, and I always subscribed to evolution.

I think had you asked me that at the time, I would have said that I suspected one of two things.
1 - That there was a defining moment in evolution when God intervened, probably very early in mans evolution.
or 2- That all living things have souls, and are capable of everlasting life, perhaps to different degrees or in different ways.

I would have also said that the question was irrelevant to my faith, and that not knowing the answer was perfectly ok.

That answer would have been reasonable in my (current) opinion, though flawed in some aspects too, as it doesn't account for heinous organisms, such as viruses and parasites.

Turtwig

condra wrote: »

it doesn't account for heinous organisms, such as viruses and parasites.

Aren't viruses classed as particles though?

HermitHorace

God is a funny guy, he creates us all from Neanderthal to homosexual to Chess players and they are all the same.

It is man who applies restriction based on society, religion or whatever is the order of the day.

When did we get a soul?
I think you get a starter pack at birth and you grow one from there.

condra

Aren't viruses classed as particles though?

Let's not digress and get into semantics. There are countless lifeforms which are harmful to man, including viruses, bacteria, parasites, etc.

When did we get a soul?
I think you get a starter pack at birth and you grow one from there.

Though it raises more questions, I think that would be a reasonable enough answer.

Beeker

You know life on the Earth has been around for almost 4 billion years. Humans for only 6 million or so. Your trying to tell me that God waited until human came along before givibg out souls? The question still remains, at what point in our evolution did he/she/it give humans a soul. Were all humanoid species given souls or just Homo Sapiens? Why wait for 4 billion yeras to start giving out souls, what about all our ancestors?

condra

Your trying to tell me that

Please be sensitive and respectful. Threads can get locked in this part pretty quickly and I'd really like to see more replies on this.

The question still remains, at what point in our evolution did he/she/it give humans a soul. Were all humanoid species given souls or just Homo Sapiens? Why wait for 4 billion yeras to start giving out souls, what about all our ancestors?

These are the sort of questions I'm interested in getting answers to, from Christian evolutionists, which I'm sure there are many, though I'm disappointed at the muted response thus far.

Beeker

condra wrote: »

Please be sensitive and respectful. Threads can get locked in this part pretty quickly and I'd really like to see more replies on this.


These are the sort of questions I'm interested in getting answers to, from Christian evolutionists, which I'm sure there are many, though I'm disappointed at the muted response thus far.

No disrespect intended. The subject of a soul is interesting seeing as so many people around the world believe in one, yet there is not a shread of proof for the existence of one.

Fanny Cradock

condra wrote: »

Clearly, you guys don't like addressing the hard questions in a frank and honest manner.

Shame.

What! Are you actually reading this thread? I´ve answered your question, as has PDN. In our own ways we have both distinguished between a soul and a spirit (the latter being unique to humans). If you can´t be bothered to consider our response then that´s just fine. However, I suggest that you then refrain from accusing us of dishonesty and not addressing your question.

Quite frankly, your attitude needs improving.

condra

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

What! Are you actually reading this thread? I´ve answered your question, as has PDN. In our own ways we have both distinguished between a soul and a spirit (the latter being unique to humans).

Perhaps the question should have been, "When did we get a spirit?"

I take acceptation to your comment on my attitude, but I'd rather this thread to continue and develop, so I'm asking you respectfully, to give me, and the thread a chance, and I apologise if I came across as rude at any point.

As far as I know, there is mention of horses in heaven in The Bible, and I'm looking for other parts of the text where there is a differentiation made between animals and humans.

rohatch

Beeker wrote: »

No disrespect intended. The subject of a soul is interesting seeing as so many people around the world believe in one, yet there is not a shread of proof for the existence of one.

Why would we need a spirit or a soul. Our personalities are constructed on how we physically look, if you took that away what is left? I would not be Ronan without my body. What or who would I be. What is the point.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

What! Are you actually reading this thread? I´ve answered your question, as has PDN. In our own ways we have both distinguished between a soul and a spirit (the latter being unique to humans). If you can´t be bothered to consider our response then that´s just fine. However, I suggest that you then refrain from accusing us of dishonesty and not addressing your question.

Quite frankly, your attitude needs improving.

The OP asked in our evolutionary history WHEN were we human enough for a soul or spirit. You did not answer this question. Please do answer without Adam and Eve.

Fanny Cradock

condra wrote: »

Perhaps the question should have been, "When did we get a spirit?"

I take acceptation to your comment on my attitude, but I'd rather this thread to continue and develop, so I'm asking you respectfully, to give me, and the thread a chance, and I apologise if I came across as rude at any point.

As far as I know, there is mention of horses in heaven in The Bible, and I'm looking for other parts of the text where there is a differentiation made between animals and humans.

I am giving this thread a chance, so I have no idea why you feel the need to plead for clemency. You are the one making accusations about that we are dishonest even though you later admitted that you phrased your question incorrectly. Furthermore, your suggestion that threads get locked around here too easily is not appreciated. For these reasons, you received a warning.

Fanny Cradock

rohatch wrote: »

The OP asked in our evolutionary history WHEN were we human enough for a soul or spirit. You did not answer this question. Please do answer without Adam and Eve.

Condra asked when we were given a soul, not a spirit. I calrified my position in relation to souls - that we have always had one. So, given my position, the question is meaningless. However, with regards to the spirit, I didn´t pretend to have an answer. I readily admitted my ignorance of when we received our spirit. As I understand the Genesis creation accounts as being largely allegorical, I couldn´t possibly say with any certainty when man actually received the spirit given by God.

It´s all there in the post. Please read it.

tinkerbell88

Humans are meant to be the only animals that have a conscience..yet my dog punishes herself by hiding in her kennel and wont come out till she knows she isnt in trouble when our other dog does something naughty! catholic gulit or what like! they both cry when you give them loads of attention. one barks at at me if i tell him off. they attack each other when i come home if one gets to me 1st - jealousy. if i havnt been home in a long time they sulk and move their heads away when i try to pet them. cant say the same for the cat or any other animal ive ever had but animals arent meant to have a conscience, which is basically your soul!

Fanny Cradock

tinkerbell88 wrote: »

Humans are meant to be the only animals that have a conscience..yet my dog punishes herself by hiding in her kennel and wont come out till she knows she isnt in trouble when our other dog does something naughty! catholic gulit or what like! they both cry when you give them loads of attention. one barks at at me if i tell him off. they attack each other when i come home if one gets to me 1st - jealousy. if i havnt been home in a long time they sulk and move their heads away when i try to pet them. cant say the same for the cat or any other animal ive ever had but animals arent meant to have a conscience, which is basically your soul!

Yes, I would believe that your dogs have souls. Maybe the same could be said of all life? But with regards to humans, we are not simply talking about a sould, we are also discussing a spirit. The latter being unique to us amongst all life. Again, look back a page or two and you will see that PDN gave an nice exposition on the difference between a soul and a spirit from a Christian context.

As for dogs etc. having "concience", I´m not sure that you could go so far. It´s a complicated subject, and an agreed definition of what concience is would first be required. AFAIK, such a universal definition remains doesn´t exist. But then it might all depend if you think that "right" and "wrong" are absolute values that exist independent of the mind, or they are simply concepts grounded in a darwinian past.

wolfsbane

patmartino wrote: »

At what point in our evolution did god give us a soul. At some stage god must have given a soul to a child.


Did neanderthals have souls?, given that they existed 30,000 years ago with us and may have bred with us.

I'm a creationist, so I'll not enter the discussion, but I am an interested observer. Thanks for the question.

It is one of issues that should make theistic evolutionists really think through their position, eg. either Adam had animals for parents or he was created on the spot. The same scientific theory that has everything else evolved has also man evolved. There is no room for man as the exception.

That means the former option must be true - at some time in man's evolution, spirits in the image of God were given to certain apes and they immediately became what we call man. Their parents, grandparents, etc. were just apes. But I'm sure Adam kept them as favourite pets when he became a man.

rohatch

PDN wrote: »

The Hebrew word for 'soul' is nephesh, and it simply means to be a living creature. It is used in the Old Testament of animals as well as humans.

So, a biblical definition of 'soul' would appear to be our mind, emotions and will. These attributes are also shared by many animals.

Ok are we in agreement that all living things have souls then, and they are NOT a religious belief or dogma.

PDN wrote: »

What the Bible does appear to teach uniquely about mankind is that we possess a spirit (Greek - pneuma). This is the part of us that enables us to communicate with God, and indeed to be made in the image of God who is Himself Spirit. This is what distinguishes us from other animals.

You cannot believe this and evolution. The question the OP should have asked

patmartino wrote: »

At what point in our evolution did god give us a SPIRIT. At some stage god must have given a SPIRIT to a child.


Did neanderthals have SPIRITs?, given that they existed 30,000 years ago with us and may have bred with us.

Joe1919 wrote: »

Many scholars (eg Terence Irwin) attribute Homer's Odyssey as the oldest reference to the soul. (800 BCE) (afaik)

Zillah wrote: »

Its not Biblical, certainly.

This is referencing the soul so it is most certainly not Biblical

homer911 wrote: »

There seems to be clear evidence of general evolution in the world, but when it comes to Man, I would definitely be a Creationist. This theory sits comfortably with me and is also consistent with the OPs question - that Man is in fact a distinct creation and not an evolution from an ape, and therefore at no time was Man without a soul.

BTW, I believe that Man is the only living creature with a soul, so anyone who expects to meet their pet cat or dog or whatever in Heaven is going to be disappointed

Most churches do not have any problem with evolution, if you choose to believe that Man is in fact a distinct creation then we cannot accept your conclusions about the soul spirit.

Fanny Cradock

rohatch wrote: »

You cannot believe this and evolution.

How do you figure that?