Atheism and Agnosticism should be part of the philosophy forum not religion

SarahChambers

It is plainly absurd that two philosophies like atheism and agnosticism should be part of the religion tab. They should be part of philosophy in my opinion. It is offensive to both religious and non religious to have it the way it is now.

If there were a science forum with a creationism tab it would be offensive, aren't the atheists in the position of the creationists if one is to compare the above situation to the presence of the atheist tab on the religion forum.

Zombrex

SarahChambers wrote: »

It is plainly absurd that two philosophies like atheism and agnosticism should be part of the religion tab. They should be part of philosophy in my opinion. It is offensive to both religious and non religious to have it the way it is now.

Considering it is easy to see religion itself as a sub set of philosophy I don't think it is that big a deal to have it here

Genghiz Cohen

SarahChambers wrote: »

It is offensive to both religious and non religious to have it the way it is now.

I don't see me complaining...

Dave!

Probably a bit pedantic to move it tbh

It's rather hysterical to suggest it's offensive to anybody

SarahChambers

Dave! wrote: »

Probably a bit pedantic to move it tbh

It's rather hysterical to suggest it's offensive to anybody

Well it to be fair, if there were a science forum with a creationism tab it would be offensive, aren't the atheists in the position of the creationists if one is to compare the above situation to the presence of the atheist tab on the religion forum

robindch

SarahChambers wrote: »

It is offensive to both religious and non religious to have it the way it is now.

Why exactly should anybody get offended?

SarahChambers

robindch wrote: »

Why exactly should anybody get offended?

The post above yours suggests a reason. Also I think it would be more accurate. It feels very strange going to the religion stub to open an atheist page.

GLaDOS

Most of the discussion here is religiously related anyway, so I think it suits

Coriolanus

I like to think that the occasional Christian clicks on the wrong link from time to time and upon seeing the cruel wit and cold logic on show in A&A, rejects God on the spot.
Would you really damn those poor people to continued delusion? For shame.

fatmammycat

Maybe we should stick religion into the paranormal tab? :)Perhaps that would soothe the terrors some?

eoin5

Itd be wrong to call either a philosophy dontcha think?

Turtwig

Nope.

Atheism* is a theological position rejecting theism.
Theism and atheism both deal with theology so they should be bulked together in religion.



*Agnosticism, isn't a theological position, so perhaps we should chuck those folks out?:p

Dades

SarahChambers wrote: »

It is offensive to both religious and non religious to have it the way it is now.

How's that poll going for ya?!

Coriolanus

The Mythology Charter raises another issue.

Grimes wrote:

Welcome everyone to the Mythology forum charter:

Mythology: the body of myths (sacred stories) of a particular culture, or of humankind as a whole; the study and interpretation of such myths.

Starting Threads

Topics should be relevant to the subject of Mythology. Threads on the actual belief to mythological creatures are flawed by definiton and are more suited to the paranormal forum.

doctoremma

SarahChambers wrote: »

It is plainly absurd that two philosophies like atheism and agnosticism should be part of the religion tab. They should be part of philosophy in my opinion. It is offensive to both religious and non religious to have it the way it is now.

If there were a science forum with a creationism tab it would be offensive, aren't the atheists in the position of the creationists if one is to compare the above situation to the presence of the atheist tab on the religion forum.

The defining feature of atheism is the position one takes regarding the existence of god. It makes complete sense to me that an atheism forum exists alongside various religious fora.

I would not be offended by a creationism tab in science. That is not to suggest that I consider it even remotely scientific. But if those who do believe in creationism wish to explore alternative possibilities, it makes sense to have easy access to more reasonable "alternatives". You get more debate from the relevant and interested parties when opposing fora are paried.

Handsome Bob

While I appreciate where you are coming from OP I think A&A is fine where it is. All these forums under the Religion Category, especially A&A and Christianity, are inter-related and they share a large amount of regular users who post in both forums on related issues. So in terms of handyness, A&A is fine where it is.

Goduznt Xzst

I voted yes, didn't want the OP to feel lonely. Being a Satan worshiper I'm also going to play devils advocate on this one

In fairness to her, the smokers have their own private forum as they don't want to listen to the peanut gallery. The quitting forum is separated. If it was set up as it is with Religion & Spirituality, we'd have pro/con smoking forums grouped together, with anti-smoking campaigners allowed to argue in either camp.

I can understand where she is coming from though, when she wants to have a look at the latest thread in the Religion category she doesn't want it invariably being filled with the latest heathen babblings from this side of the fence.

Rev Hellfire

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I can understand where she is coming from though, when she wants to have a look at the latest thread in the Religion category she doesn't want it invariably being filled with the latest heathen babblings from this side of the fence.

Perhaps we should then remove spirtuality as well, and perhaps paganism and islam. I mean they might clutter up the catagory with things they don't want to read or see. So many differing opinions it must get very confusing after a while.

fitz0

I don't see A&A as a philosophy orientated forum. We all ahve very different philosophies on life and the only thing compelling us to inhabit this forum is religion (or the lack thereof.) So its natural that we be more closely linked to religious discussion than philosophical.

While religion can be seen as a subset of philosophy, that means the rejection of religion should be classified as the same (not as a religion but as a subset of philosophy) and both lumped together.

drkpower

Clearly the OP is just trying to be difficult (she has form for it....).

Technically, the category should be changed from "R&S" to "Belief", and then all of the sub-categories fit in there perfectly; but, in any case, Atheism being within "religon and spirituality" is appropriate. I would put a forum for those with no political beliefs under politics....

Naz_st

SarahChambers wrote: »

Well it to be fair, if there were a science forum with a creationism tab it would be offensive, aren't the atheists in the position of the creationists if one is to compare the above situation to the presence of the atheist tab on the religion forum

The difference is that "theism" is a definitional constituent of atheism. i.e Theism is a necessary component of the definition of atheism, without theism there wouldn't be atheism. For example, there's no term for people who don't believe in the flying green invisible yellow-tongued unicorns of Neptune...

But creationism is not definitionally related to science - it just accepts as truth things that science can show to be false, hence the antagonism between the two. But you could have creationism without science (indeed, it would be a lot easier!)

Goduznt Xzst

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Perhaps we should then remove spirtuality as well, and perhaps paganism and islam. I mean they might clutter up the catagory with things they don't want to read or see. So many differing opinions it must get very confusing after a while.

Please detail why you are drawing the assumption that the OP only has interests in reading Christian threads (or Buddhist). The OP expressed an interest in only seeing threads from the Religious or Spiritual. As Atheists we are neither. Atheism is an Ideology and has more, imo, to do with philosophy than religion.

If anything their should be a sub section of Philosophy called Theology which Atheism & Agnosticism could be added to.

But I understand why Atheists are reluctant to acknowledge a change. There is far more foot traffic from the religious into this forum, being in this section, than there ever would be if it was put under Philosophy. I for one find it far more interesting having the forum positioned here, rubbing shoulders with the believers. The stuff that gets churned out in the Philosophy section is far too existential for my liking.

Asiaprod

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Atheism is an Ideology and has more, imo, to do with philosophy than religion.

You can say exactly the same thing for Buddhism then. But then again you can't.

Rev Hellfire

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Please detail why you are drawing the assumption that the OP only has interests in reading Christian threads (or Buddhist). The OP expressed an interest in only seeing threads from the Religious or Spiritual.

I was simply referring to your proposed reason as to why the OP would wish to censor atheist opinion from the religious category.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

As Atheists we are neither. Atheism is an Ideology and has more, imo, to do with philosophy than religion.

Well not all of us here are athiests
Since atheism is solely connected with one of the primary tenets (if not the primary one) of most of the major faiths it belongs here.
As for it been an ideology I don't see how it can be seen as one, what does it aspire to?
Its a statement of belief in one single statement, nothing more nothing less.
If it belongs anywhere other than here its as a sub-forum of the sceptics.

dvpower

I'm for leaving it where it is.
The primary purpose of having these categories at all in a discussion forum is to help people find the topics that they're interested in.

So, for me, we can leave aside the question of 'What is atheism?" and ask "Where might a person look for threads concerning atheism?".

Regular posters will find it wherever it is.

In any case, in terms of footfall, Religion & Spirituality is Grafton Street to Philosophy's Ilac Centre (Threads=446;Posts=6572).

robindch

SarahChambers wrote: »

It feels very strange going to the religion stub to open an atheist page.

I can't quite see why. And even if it is very strange to see, why should one get offended by seeing it?

Dades

This forum belongs here in the same way the "No Religion" box belongs in the Religious Beliefs section of the census. It's an option under the category of religious beliefs.

dvpower wrote: »

I'm for leaving it where it is.

Like it was ever up for debate.

Flamed Diving

Come on, sure who then would annoy the Christianity forum? The pagans? Those cheese-eating surrender monkeys?

Pah!

Goduznt Xzst

Asiaprod wrote: »

You can say exactly the same thing for Buddhism then. But then again you can't.

Going on common perception, which would dictate where a user of this forum would look to find a section on Buddhism, it would be viewed as a religion or, at the very least, a form of spiritual guidance. Buddhism, also, as a whole, is not devoid of religious beliefs. There are no Atheist sects that practice Religious doctrines.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

As for it been an ideology I don't see how it can be seen as one, what does it aspire to?

You are attributing characteristics to the definition of an ideology that are merely connotations of the term. At its very least an ideology can merely be a set of opinions and ideas for describing reality.

Anyway, like I said, I don't think A&A should actually be moved, but I can understand the perspective of the OP.

She sees the sections title as:

Religion & Spirituality!

whereas we, and the mods, see it as:

Religion & Spirituality?

Linoge

Maybe we should change A&A to Secular Humanism, which can be classed as a religion in legal terms (very much technically only). Then we can branch A&A as a subforum from that! Problem solved!:D

Zombrex

Linoge wrote: »

. Then we can branch A&A as a subforum from that! Problem solved!:D

rofl

MrPudding

Naz_st wrote: »

But you could have creationism without science (indeed, it would be a lot easier!)

*Ahem* creationism is without science.

MrP

Galvasean

I think I went to school with the OP...

I'm happy having us 'across the road' from the Christianity forum. We have some really good inter-forum chemistry/banter.

Plus, I like the irony of being the first on the list under Religion & Spirituality'.

ChocolateSauce

SarahChambers wrote: »

The post above yours suggests a reason. Also I think it would be more accurate. It feels very strange going to the religion stub to open an atheist page.

If you want to get accurate (IMO), religion should be put into the mythology forum, and threads on Jesus should be put into a subforum of Zombie survival.

Better to leave it as it is.

Xluna

Ahhh...I hate anal retentive thinking. Things are fine. If this mentality took hold. We'd be having debates on where threads are being moved every two days. OP,we're the Jamaicans of the east not the Germans of the west.:D

marco_polo

Well, if Pro wrestling goes under sport .......

Handsome Bob

marco_polo wrote: »

Well, if Pro wrestling goes under sport .......

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63001605&postcount=10

Zombrex

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

and threads on Jesus should be put into a subforum of Zombie survival.

Yet you compare the Rapture to the Zombie Apocalypse on the Christianity forum and you get in trouble ... go figure

RichieO

It's far more complicated than I thought... I see very religious Christians, partly religious Christians and those who are religiously unchristian, I also see agnostics/atheists who behave in both pagan and a christian ways.
There are those who agree and those who disagree, not to mention those who cannot agree to disagree....

Separation seems a good thing but "what about the kids?"

Let's stay together and fight but "what about the kids?"

Whereas I am so undecided so I think I will vote yes, or no.... Dammit... Can I vote maybe?

Asiaprod

This has actually come up before. Then as now, it is now where it is meant to be.:p

Flamed Diving

I think that A&A is an important subforum of Religion & Spirituality. Somewhere one can find an alternative viewpoint with respect to the offers of our more superstitious friends in the neighbourhood. If you removed A&A from this subforum, then this voice would be lost and I believe that this would be a shame.

Linoge

RichieO wrote: »

It's far more complicated than I thought... I see very religious Christians, partly religious Christians and those who are religiously unchristian, I also see agnostics/atheists who behave in both pagan and a christian ways.

I can can see how a christian can behave unchristian as christians have a strict codes of ethics to live by, but how does an agnostic/atheist behave like a pagan or a christian? Is this by worshipping the sun gods and going to mass?? I think you'll find that most agnostics/atheists dont do that.....

RichieO

I can can see how a christian can behave unchristian as christians have a strict codes of ethics to live by, but how does an agnostic/atheist behave like a pagan or a christian? Is this by worshipping the sun gods and going to mass?? I think you'll find that most agnostics/atheists dont do that.

It's just my clumsy way of saying, "it doesn't matter where you look, there is always the good, bad and indifferent" No matter what you believe...

Morbert

This is ridiculous. Atheism is not a religion, but it is a topic that's intimately related to religion and spirituality.

Being offended by the forum location is silly.

patmartino

There should only be one post in Atheism wherever it is located.

Religion is not real.
The bible is a work of fiction.
God in a religious context does not exist.

MrPudding

patmartino wrote: »

There should only be one post in Atheism wherever it is located.

Religion is not real.
The bible is a work of fiction.
God in a religious context does not exist.

Cool. I'll PM the admins and get them to lock it now.

MrP

Promac

Being new here I found it pretty strange when I saw the A&A forum listed under religion and spirituality. Somewhere near it, sure, but as a subsection? Doesn't make sense.

It's be like having a football forum with a subsection for each of the major teams and one for people who don't like football. Doesn't make sense.

Flamed Diving

Promac wrote: »

Being new here I found it pretty strange when I saw the A&A forum listed under religion and spirituality. Somewhere near it, sure, but as a subsection? Doesn't make sense.

It's be like having a football forum with a subsection for each of the major teams and one for people who don't like football. Doesn't make sense.

Atheism.

Think about it.

Promac

Actually, I think you’re looking for Atheism. The A being the important qualifier and meaning “without”. Without theism. Without any belief in any god.

To continue the football analogy, it would be without any liking for any football team so why would it be a subset of a football forum?

Flamed Diving

Promac wrote: »

Actually, I think you’re looking for Atheism. The A being the important qualifier and meaning “without”. Without theism. Without any belief in any god.

Wood for trees.

Anyway, you are missing the point entirely. Atheism needs theism. If theism disappeared in the morning, and everyone stopped believing, atheism would lose its utility. It is a rejection of a philosophy, and therefore should be housed with the very philosophies it rejects.

Your football analogy suggests:

a) That there should be no afootballism forum at all.
b) The afootballism forum should be in another non-football category.

I think both are terrible ideas. Which do you want?

Funglegunk

Promac wrote: »

To continue the football analogy, it would be without any liking for any football team so why would it be a subset of a football forum?

Well imagine that not only do you find football completely irrational and possibly even dangerous, and you are exposed to it in some way almost everyday, but your country's code of law was written in deference to Man United when they were really, really popular.

Surely you'd want to talk to people who feel the same way about football that you do, where better than in the football forum.