Stick a Fork in Weisz..........

bobby wade

........he's done

Royal Seahawk

It's begining to look like a failed experiment alright. If they lose Clausen to the draft next year then they really are goosed.

LuckyLloyd

The Weis Fact Sheet
posted by The Rock

-Under .500 over the last 3 years.
-Against teams with winning records: Weis 8-19 (.296) Faust 12-23 (.343) Willingham
-12-15 (.444) Davie 18-22 (.450)
-0 wins against teams finishing in the top 10 of any of the major polls.
-1 (1-13) win against teams finishing in the Top 25 (Willingham had 7)
-Worst two year stretch in Notre Dame history (10-15)
-First coach to lose to Navy since 1963 (twice)
-First time in 73 years (the first year of polling) that an unranked Navy team defeated a ranked Notre Dame team
-Worst loss to a service academy in 44 years (blown out by Air Force)
-First coach in Notre Dame history to lose to an eight-loss team (Syracuse 2008)
-0-5 against USC
-Average margin of defeat against USC: 19.8 ppg
-Losing records to Boston College: 1-2, Michigan: 2-3 and Michigan State: 2-3
-Losses by 20 points or more: 8
-More shutout losses: 3 (Boston College, USC, Michigan) in four years than Notre Dame had from 1965-2001
-First 9-loss season in school history
-First 0-4 start ever
-First 0-5 start ever
-Has lost to more teams that finished outside the top 50 (MSU 2007, Purdue 2007, GT 2007, Navy 2007, Syracuse 2008) than Willingham, Davie and Faust… combined (5-4)
-Last overall offense in the country in 2007
-Last overall in yards per play in 2007
-Last overall in yards per game in 2007
-Lowest average yardage in the history of Notre Dame football in 2007
-Worst rushing team in ND history in 2007
-Lost to Navy, USC and Michigan in the same year… twice
-Set an NCAA record (58) for most sacks allowed in a season in 2007
-Notre Dame finished 90th in the country in the 2007 Sagarin ratings… below Richmond, North Dakota State, Delaware, Navy, Florida Atlantic, James Madison and Wofford.
-3-16 record since 2007 against teams that finished with a winning record
-Only coach in ND history to coach for five years and not score 50 points in a game (56 other teams topped 50 points during Weis’s tenure)
-Weis has given up 40+ points in a loss 6 times, 30+ in a loss 19 times
-Currently has the 84th ranked defense in the country
-Will miss the BCS three straight years
-No BCS wins in five years of coaching

Yeah, I think he should go now tbh. While it is true that the team has lost five games by a combined total of 21 points (one in double OT), the reality is that given the talent level on both sides of the ball, we are experiencing significant under performance. The Offensive conversion rate inside the Redzone is really poor, and it seems that if PLAN A (fades to Tate and Floyd) ain't working, PLAN B is generally poorly designed and executed. As for the defense. Wow. There are too many 3star+ recruits in there for it to be so bad. The blame there has to lie with the coaching staff. I mean, our defense is horrific. And the fact that its leader (Kyle McCarthy) is unlikely to cut it in the NFL (like Maurice Crum the year before) says so much.

eagle eye

Agree Lloyd and its not just that, the playcalling has been horrendous at times also. Remember the game against Michigan, we had the ball and the lead with less than 3 minutes to go and they pass on 2nd and 3rd down when running the clock was a much better option. It was just horrendous playcalling and its not the only time this year, but that one really sticks out in the mind as it really hurt to lose that game.
The defense has been a huge worry all season, and its not just been bad its like they can't tackle properly, its was scary how poor our defenders looked one on one.
The offense too, Clausen is something else and we are so lucky to have Golden Tate. I mean without those two this season would have been dreadful. I hope we get a good replacement.

On a personal note, I'd always welcome Weis back to Gillette Stadium and give him his old job back.

Any chance that Urban might come to South Bend now? He has always stated that his no.1 team is the Irish and that he wants to coach there and with the amount of Gators that are seniors he has a rebuilding job if he stays in Florida so why not take his dream job now?

Hynzie

eagle eye wrote: »

Agree Lloyd and its not just that, the playcalling has been horrendous at times also. Remember the game against Michigan, we had the ball and the lead with less than 3 minutes to go and they pass on 2nd and 3rd down when running the clock was a much better option. It was just horrendous playcalling and its not the only time this year, but that one really sticks out in the mind as it really hurt to lose that game.
The defense has been a huge worry all season, and its not just been bad its like they can't tackle properly, its was scary how poor our defenders looked one on one.
The offense too, Clausen is something else and we are so lucky to have Golden Tate. I mean without those two this season would have been dreadful. I hope we get a good replacement.

On a personal note, I'd always welcome Weis back to Gillette Stadium and give him his old job back.

Any chance that Urban might come to South Bend now? He has always stated that his no.1 team is the Irish and that he wants to coach there and with the amount of Gators that are seniors he has a rebuilding job if he stays in Florida so why not take his dream job now?

Yeah that play calling at the end of the Michigan game was really bad. I dont see Myer leaving Florida especially if he wins the National title this season. Its alot easier to rebuild in Florida than it at Notre Dame right now.

frostie500

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

As for the defense. Wow. There are too many 3star+ recruits in there for it to be so bad. The blame there has to lie with the coaching staff. I mean, our defense is horrific. And the fact that its leader (Kyle McCarthy) is unlikely to cut it in the NFL (like Maurice Crum the year before) says so much.

The rankings of recruits are quite scewed by where recruits end up signing-a low star prospect suddenly becomes a four or five star guy if he goes to Florida, USC, ND etc. There just isnt the general talent level at Notre Dame anymore and that will not change for the forseeable future no matter who is in charge.
In the past the Irish were the only truly 'national' universtity with a huge catchment of pretty much any player from any place but with conferences such as the SEC having their huge CBS contract players can get great exposure in view of NFL scouts while playing in warm weather instead of the cold of Indiana. This has to make a huge difference to being able to get players from Cali, Florida, Texas and other southern states where most of the talent lies. In the past Notre Dame had their contract with NBC and were guarenteed to be shown every week but now you can play at any major college and be seen most weeks.

eagle eye wrote: »

Any chance that Urban might come to South Bend now? He has always stated that his no.1 team is the Irish and that he wants to coach there and with the amount of Gators that are seniors he has a rebuilding job if he stays in Florida so why not take his dream job now?

Cant see Meyer going to South Bend, as Hynzie says its a lot easier to rebuild in Gainsville then at Notre Dame. He has a situation where he might win 3 titles in 4 years and will as a result be untouchable for the foreseeable future with Florida on great money and the potential to restock his troops consistently with NFL prospects from the states mentioned above

Royal Seahawk

Definitely not gonna happen now...check this out..

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4682614

davyjose

Nothing to be gained. Even if Florida goes through a USC type lull after this year (and that's probable), florida will always be able to pull in promising talent, and rebuild, much like USC. Will ND? Nope.

And aside from that, he's already rubber-stamped as a Legend in Gainesville, barring almost anything the future holds. If he goes to Notre Dame, he runs the risk of becoming a flop - something that can't happen him, where he is.

Hazys

hmmm as a Pats fan im not 100% sure i'd take Weis back as OC too quickly, even tho we dont have an OC now.

The offense was never explosive under Weis (probably because we never had the talent for 12 to throw to) it was effective. So would it be taking a step back to take Weis back as OC?

Although i certainly wouldnt mind Crennel back as DC even tho i dont think Pees has done a bad job necessarily but Romeo would be a step up in my opinion.

Hazys

Royal Seahawk wrote: »

Definitely not gonna happen now...check this out..

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4682614

I doubt he'll go but you never know, you cant trust what he is saying now as there is no reason for him to say he wants the job with ND and get himself hated in Florida for it to fall through for whatever reason.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2705288

LuckyLloyd

Hazys wrote: »

hmmm as a Pats fan im not 100% sure i'd take Weis back as OC too quickly, even tho we dont have an OC now.

The offense was never explosive under Weis (probably because we never had the talent for 12 to throw to) it was effective. So would it be taking a step back to take Weis back as OC?

Although i certainly wouldnt mind Crennel back as DC even tho i dont think Pees has done a bad job necessarily but Romeo would be a step up in my opinion.

Do you remember the players you guys had on offense during 2001 - 2005? Seriously, Weis was a genius to achieve what he did offensively when the roster was Brady + backups.

frostie500

Who do Irish fans want as the next coach of the team? Or more importantly who do you fans realistically think will go to South Bend when Weis gets canned

LuckyLloyd

frostie500 wrote: »

Who do Irish fans want as the next coach of the team? Or more importantly who do you fans realistically think will go to South Bend when Weis gets canned

Brian Kelly is who I want.

LuckyLloyd

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/2009/11/30/2009-11-30_source_notre_dame_fires_head_coach_charlie_weis_.html

Weis will be fired today. Rumour mill in overdrive over the weekend, loads of speculation and "insider" indications that Bob Stoops will be named the next coach on either Wednesday or Thursday of this week.

frostie500

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/2009/11/30/2009-11-30_source_notre_dame_fires_head_coach_charlie_weis_.html

Weis will be fired today. Rumour mill in overdrive over the weekend, loads of speculation and "insider" indications that Bob Stoops will be named the next coach on either Wednesday or Thursday of this week.

At least if Stoops went they may be able to recruit defensive players. Cant see him going as it would be a pretty big step down from the Sooners and he may feel that there is still 'unfinished' buisiness with them after five consecutive loses in BCS bowl games. If the Irish get him it would be a great hire but I'd be suprised. The job isnt as big as it once was and thats shown pretty clearly with Urban Meyer saying he has no interest in going there

If I was the ND selectors Id be much more interested in your own favourate of Kelly because he is consistently able to find stud players overlooked by other teams. Give him the chance of getting a few four and five star guys and he would be able to mould a damn good team.

eagle eye

Yeah rumours abound alright but I thought Brian Kelly was the favourite for the job?

LuckyLloyd

frostie500 wrote: »

At least if Stoops went they may be able to recruit defensive players. Cant see him going as it would be a pretty big step down from the Sooners and he may feel that there is still 'unfinished' buisiness with them after five consecutive loses in BCS bowl games. If the Irish get him it would be a great hire but I'd be suprised. The job isnt as big as it once was and thats shown pretty clearly with Urban Meyer saying he has no interest in going there

If I was the ND selectors Id be much more interested in your own favourate of Kelly because he is consistently able to find stud players overlooked by other teams. Give him the chance of getting a few four and five star guys and he would be able to mould a damn good team.

I'm afraid this is 100% incorrect sir.

frostie500

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm afraid this is 100% incorrect sir.

See my posting below

LuckyLloyd

Like it or lump it, the NBC deal / national recruiting influence / rich tradition still makes ND one of the biggest / most attractive to a coach football programs in the nation. To suggest it's a "pretty big step down" is either ignorance or trolling. If we solely judged programs in terms of importance on the basis of the results they have achieved over the past 10 years then Oregon and Boise State would be top echelon jobs; and Nick Saban would never have gone to Alabama.

frostie500

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Like it or lump it, the NBC deal / national recruiting influence / rich tradition still makes ND one of the biggest / most attractive to a coach football programs in the nation. To suggest it's a "pretty big step down" is either ignorance or trolling.

Do you believe that going to a program that has gone through 3 head coaches in Stoops Sooners tenure with an overal recored of 75-58 while he has had a 115-29 record and seven BCS Bowl games doesnt represent a step down?

Notre Dame isnt the same post it was 15 years ago. The NBC deal isnt a deal breaker anymore. The CBS deal with the SEC means that high school recruits dont need to go to Indiana to play in front of a national audience each week. In good times-after an SC or an Ohio State win-Notre Dame is the only truely national university in the States. Alumni from everywhere call up looking to donate etc but this doesnt happen with the frequency it used to. Why would that be? Its down to recruiting. The Irish cant recruit as strongly in the South. This is where the vast majority of talent seems to coming from these days and Notre Dame is consistently out recruited downt there.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If we solely judged programs in terms of importance on the basis of the results they have achieved over the past 10 years then Oregon and Boise State would be top echelon jobs; and Nick Saban would never have gone to Alabama.

College Football has moved along over the last fifteen years and ND has had two double digit winning seasons since 93, do you believe that they are still an elite program with that sort of record?

mikemac

eagle eye wrote: »

Yeah rumours abound alright but I thought Brian Kelly was the favourite for the job?

I've heard Brian Billick.
A top class coach even if he was fired by the Ravens. Even as a Ravens fan I've a lot of time for him

Watch the playbook videos on the NFL website and you'll see the knowledge he has.
Latest book is a cracking read too!

He is still been paid by the Ravens but as I understand, he can take a college job and not lose the compensation. He'll only lose his payoff if he takes an NFL job

Billick as next Notre Dame coach, it's gonna happen :cool:

LuckyLloyd

frostie500 wrote: »

Do you believe that going to a program that has gone through 3 head coaches in Stoops Sooners tenure with an overal recored of 75-58 while he has had a 115-29 record and seven BCS Bowl games doesnt represent a step down?

Notre Dame isnt the same post it was 15 years ago. The NBC deal isnt a deal breaker anymore. The CBS deal with the SEC means that high school recruits dont need to go to Indiana to play in front of a national audience each week. In good times-after an SC or an Ohio State win-Notre Dame is the only truely national university in the States. Alumni from everywhere call up looking to donate etc but this doesnt happen with the frequency it used to. Why would that be? Its down to recruiting. The Irish cant recruit as strongly in the South. This is where the vast majority of talent seems to coming from these days and Notre Dame is consistently out recruited downt there.



College Football has moved along over the last fifteen years and ND has had two double digit winning seasons since 93, do you believe that they are still an elite program with that sort of record?

ND are on Prime Time every week. The CBS deal doesn't match that in terms of exposure for any individual SEC school. More pertinently, the CBS deal doesn't match the NBC deal in terms of the money it delivers directly to the ND football program.

ND's recruiting averages over the past five years are elite. Its Rivals.com averages are right up there with anyone during the last 5 years. Quinn followed by Clausen? Sjmardija followed by Tate and Floyd? Carlson followed by Rudolph? Teo coming last year? And then a ton of top highschool recruits that didn't pan out due to poor coaching (most notably Sam Young). ND is getting a ton of talent through the door, the problem under Weis has been coaching that talent up to where it should be.

And when the talent still comes through the door despite a poor winning record it should make it clear that ND's tradition and facilities still make it one of the top programs in the country. Yes, ND has taken a hit over the past 16 years. That is why it is no longer the top program in the nation. Remember that for a long time before the mid nineties it was the undisputed #1 college football program. It is no longer there, but it is still top 5 by any reasonable metric.

eagle eye

Unfortunately ND does not enjoy the reputation as the be all and end all program in college that it once was but its still right up there. They still have been churning out successful NFL starters and now you add the performance in school of the players it is going to get the attention of a lot of parents and families who want their kid to succeed in football but more importantly have something to fall back on should they not make the grade/get badly injured on the field.
I think Notre Dame as an alumni made a very smart move by making grades important, and I truly do believe that its won't be long before they are back at the top of the game.

Weis did a job there, he brought some respectability back to the program but now its time to have a proven winner at the helm.

themont85

Notre Dame have a little niche there which they can exploit. There is something really endearing about the place and they will always get some talent.

For what its worth Adam Shefter has reported that his close sources believe that Stoops will be the ND coach next year. Schefter is pretty good most of the time....

http://twitter.com/ADAM_SCHEFTER

tallaghtoutlaws

Ok this conversation lacks some facts to back up both sides of the arguments. Both of you I feel are right in some ways but the top commits from last few seasons:

http://recruiting.scout.com/a.z?s=73&p=9&c=14&yr=2009

As you can see ND are ranked considerably lower than the other Top Schools only in 2009 but for the other years they are still among the Elite in recruiting.

frostie500

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

ND's recruiting averages over the past five years are elite. Its Rivals.com averages are right up there with anyone during the last 5 years. ND is getting a ton of talent through the door, the problem under Weis has been coaching that talent up to where it should be.

And when the talent still comes through the door despite a poor winning record it should make it clear that ND's tradition and facilities still make it one of the top programs in the country. Yes, ND has taken a hit over the past 16 years. That is why it is no longer the top program in the nation. Remember that for a long time before the mid nineties it was the undisputed #1 college football program. It is no longer there, but it is still top 5 by any reasonable metric.

I posed on the previous page that I think that player rankings are skewed when a player goes to a big school. A 3 star guy becomes a 4 star etc. Do you truly believe that the defensive players assembled are nationally elite as their rankings from rivals would allud to? The performances on the pitch and just the sheer talent on show would back up my point.

I wasnt comparing the SEC deal with CBS solely in terms of money just that it has changed the lanscape of college ball. In the early ninties when ND signed their deal they were guarenteed as being the only game shown live into every house in America. This is no longer the case since the SEC deal. Now you can play in what is generally considered to be the nations top conference and be seen with great frequency by the pro scouts and your families. This has made a massive difference for nationwide recruiting to the SEC.

Notre Dame has not been of national importance-on the football field-since 93, that is 16 years ago, or the age of the average junior in high school. How can the school continue to be relevant and return to its former place if the best players in the country associate the school not with sucess but with mediocrity?

LuckyLloyd

frostie500 wrote: »

I posed on the previous page that I think that player rankings are skewed when a player goes to a big school. A 3 star guy becomes a 4 star etc. Do you truly believe that the defensive players assembled are nationally elite as their rankings from rivals would allud to? The performances on the pitch and just the sheer talent on show would back up my point.

This bias that you mentioned happens for all players recruited by major BCS schools. If there is a bias in this area specifically skewed in favour of ND it is extremely minimal.

The reason Weis has been fired is not for his inability to recruit. He has recruited the talent, then failed to coach them up to their potentials (aside from the skill offensive positions). It is clearly his shortcomings as a mentor / technical coach and his inability to identify and hire good position coaches that has lost him his job.

Ty Willingham was a poor recruiter AND a poor coach. The last 8, 9 years has not been a case of losing due to a lack of talent.

frostie500 wrote: »

I wasnt comparing the SEC deal with CBS solely in terms of money just that it has changed the lanscape of college ball. In the early ninties when ND signed their deal they were guarenteed as being the only game shown live into every house in America. This is no longer the case since the SEC deal. Now you can play in what is generally considered to be the nations top conference and be seen with great frequency by the pro scouts and your families. This has made a massive difference for nationwide recruiting to the SEC.

No - one is disputing that it made a difference. But ND remains the school with the very best TV deal in the nation. The school that guarantees the greatest national exposure.

frostie500 wrote: »

Notre Dame has not been of national importance-on the football field-since 93, that is 16 years ago, or the age of the average junior in high school. How can the school continue to be relevant and return to its former place if the best players in the country associate the school not with sucess but with mediocrity?

Statements like this only serve to convince me that you are deeply biased / trolling. Notre Dame went to BCS Bowls in 2005 and 2006. They also participated in what is universally recognized as one of the best games of the decade .

What those two seasons proved is that the program can get up off the canvas quickly with some good coaching (Weis managed the experienced left overs from Willingham exceptionally well those two years). HS offensive skill players will look at some of the ridiculous plays involving Clausen and Quinn over the past five years and imagine themselves being able to repeat such success. And don't forget the influence parents have in a lot of young recruit's decision making processes. 17 year old kids might not remember Rocket Ismail and Lou Holtz, but their parents probably will. And not every blue chip Highschool athlete is a "make the pros to feed my family" gangster from a broken home.

frostie500

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This bias that you mentioned happens for all players recruited by major BCS schools. If there is a bias in this area specifically skewed in favour of ND it is extremely minimal.

The reason Weis has been fired is not for his inability to recruit. He has recruited the talent, then failed to coach them up to their potentials (aside from the skill offensive positions). It is clearly his shortcomings as a mentor / technical coach and his inability to identify and hire good position coaches that has lost him his job.

Ty Willingham was a poor recruiter AND a poor coach. The last 8, 9 years has not been a case of losing due to a lack of talent.

No - one is disputing that it made a difference. But ND remains the school with the very best TV deal in the nation. The school that guarantees the greatest national exposure.

Statements like this only serve to convince me that you are deeply biased / trolling. Notre Dame went to BCS Bowls in 2005 and 2006. They also participated in what is universally recognized as one of the best games of the decade .

What those two seasons proved is that the program can get up off the canvas quickly with some good coaching (Weis managed the experienced left overs from Willingham exceptionally well those two years). HS offensive skill players will look at some of the ridiculous plays involving Clausen and Quinn over the past five years and imagine themselves being able to repeat such success. And don't forget the influence parents have in a lot of young recruit's decision making processes. 17 year old kids might not remember Rocket Ismail and Lou Holtz, but their parents probably will. And not every blue chip Highschool athlete is a "make the pros to feed my family" gangster from a broken home.

For one thing I let the earlier comment about trolling slide, last month I had a comment edited by yourself for implying someone was trolling. Should a mod not hold himself to a similer standard as the other users of this forum? Please remove them from your postings.

Notre Dame has had three coaches in the last 12 years, each coach has ended up with pretty much the same record at the end of their tenure. Do you think each coach is equally bad or is it not an indication of an ongoing trend?

College football has changed and Notre Dame are not a school that should be held with regard above all others. Can you honestly say that Notre Dame deserve to still be viewed as the gold standard of schools that they previously were?

I never implied that high school kids were gangsters from broken homes, but I can be pretty sure that nearly all blue chippers want to play for a team that can consistently challenge for national titles and patently they can not do that in South Bend

I said initially that Stoops going to ND would be a step down, what reason can you give for him leaving a $4 Million a year job at a perenial national title challenger that he has consistently been able to reload with top players for him leaving to go to Notre Dame?

LuckyLloyd

frostie500 wrote: »

For one thing I let the earlier comment about trolling slide, last month I had a comment edited by yourself for implying someone was trolling. Should a mod not hold himself to a similer standard as the other users of this forum? Please remove them from your postings.

What comment was this?

frostie500 wrote: »

Notre Dame has had three coaches in the last 12 years, each coach has ended up with pretty much the same record at the end of their tenure. Do you think each coach is equally bad or is it not an indication of an ongoing trend?

Look at what Faust, Davies and Willingham did after they coached at ND. Weis will go back to being an OC in the NFL, but I would be shocked if he ever gets a HC position this high profile again in his career.

frostie500 wrote: »

College football has changed and Notre Dame are not a school that should be held with regard above all others. Can you honestly say that Notre Dame deserve to still be viewed as the gold standard of schools that they previously were?

I never said they are still the "gold Standard of schools". I simply said that your original statement of ND being a "pretty big step down" from OU is fundamentally incorrect.

frostie500 wrote: »

I never implied that high school kids were gangsters from broken homes, but I can be pretty sure that nearly all blue chippers want to play for a team that can consistently challenge for national titles and patently they can not do that in South Bend

Then why do they keep going there? Mante Teo turned down USC to go to South Bend this year. That is 2009, not 1993. He had interest from Texas, Florida and Ohio State also. How can you continue to blithely ignore such facts? Clausen was considered the #1 HS prospect in the nation and he went to South Bend also. Seriously!

frostie500 wrote: »

I said initially that Stoops going to ND would be a step down, what reason can you give for him leaving a $4 Million a year job at a perenial national title challenger that he has consistently been able to reload with top players for him leaving to go to Notre Dame?

If ND offered him more money; if he felt a connection to the tradition / history / religious nature of the school; if he wanted a fresh challenge in trying to get it back where it belongs. None of my posts have an air of expectancy or entitlement to him coming - like suggesting that if he was offered the post he would gleefully take a pay cut to come. I was weary of the reports as my first post on the issue should make clear (note the italics on insider). I would be delighted if it happened, and I certainly don't think it is a completely 100% unrealistic proposition. A longshot, but ND would certainly be within their rights to ask.

frostie500

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

What comment was this?

These:

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

To suggest it's a "pretty big step down" is either ignorance or trolling.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Statements like this only serve to convince me that you are deeply biased / trolling.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I never said they are still the "gold Standard of schools". I simply said that your original statement of ND being a "pretty big step down" from OU is fundamentally incorrect.

Fair enough I took you up wrong on that, and I may be out of line in saying its a big step down, but would you view it as a step down of anykind? I would. He is coaching a major program that consistantly has been able to challenge for national titles. I'll take this time to clarify my statements a bit here. I beleive that Notre Dame have fallen from their previous position of being unquestionalbly the biggest school in football with a job that every coach would love. I dont view this as being the case any longer, they are possibly still an upper echelon school, the same as USC, OSU, Michigan, Texas etc. As a result I wouldnt see why a coach of one of these types of schools would consider moving to South Bend.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Then why do they keep going there? Mante Teo turned down USC to go to South Bend this year. That is 2009, not 1993. He had interest from Texas, Florida and Ohio State also. How can you continue to blithely ignore such facts? Clausen was considered the #1 HS prospect in the nation and he went to South Bend also. Seriously!

Ill give you Jimmy Clausen but he would have gone where ever Charlie Weis went. Weis had made Tom Brady arguably the best qb in the NFL and he obviously would hold a lot of sway in recruiting the nations top quaterback. And yes Teo went to Notre Dame but one swallow doesnt make a summer. Do you honestly think that Notre Dame are recruiting All Americans on a consistant basis as the ranking systems attest? The clear answer is that they are not, they either have a very bad staff of scouts or else they cant coach and when the overall record of their coaches isnt vastly different it must be that they are recruiting badly.

LuckyLloyd

frostie500 wrote: »

These:

No, what statement of yours did I edit?

frostie500 wrote: »

Fair enough I took you up wrong on that, and I may be out of line in saying its a big step down, but would you view it as a step down of anykind? I would. He is coaching a major program that consistantly has been able to challenge for national titles. I'll take this time to clarify my statements a bit here. I beleive that Notre Dame have fallen from their previous position of being unquestionalbly the biggest school in football with a job that every coach would love. I dont view this as being the case any longer, they are possibly still an upper echelon school, the same as USC, OSU, Michigan, Texas etc. As a result I wouldnt see why a coach of one of these types of schools would consider moving to South Bend.

It's a step across. A coach may decide to step across if the particular nature of the school or challenge on offer appealed to him.

frostie500 wrote: »

Ill give you Jimmy Clausen but he would have gone where ever Charlie Weis went. Weis had made Tom Brady arguably the best qb in the NFL and he obviously would hold a lot of sway in recruiting the nations top quaterback. And yes Teo went to Notre Dame but one swallow doesnt make a summer. Do you honestly think that Notre Dame are recruiting All Americans on a consistant basis as the ranking systems attest? The clear answer is that they are not, they either have a very bad staff of scouts or else they cant coach and when the overall record of their coaches isnt vastly different it must be that they are recruiting badly.

Which is a simpler explanation:

A) all the recruiting assessment sites have been wrong for years - but only when it comes to their analysis of ND recruiting classes. And infact, ND have been getting in poor players despite widespread believe to the contrary;

B)Faust, Davies, Willingham and Weis were limited coaches, that surrounded themselves with poor staffs and buckled under the ferocious media pressure that comes with coaching ND;

I know which one is more likely to be perfectly honest.

frostie500

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

No, what statement of yours did I edit?

Post 49 in the thread for new mods, I was edited by yourself for implying SteelerSydney was trolling, as were some other posters. I feel that a mod should hold himself to same standard that he expects the rest of us to adhere to so please change your earlier posts

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Which is a simpler explanation:

A) all the recruiting assessment sites have been wrong for years - but only when it comes to their analysis of ND recruiting classes. And infact, ND have been getting in poor players despite widespread belief to the contrary;

B)Faust, Davies, Willingham and Weis were limited coaches, that surrounded themselves with poor staffs and buckled under the ferocious media pressure that comes with coaching ND;

I know which one is more likely to be perfectly honest.

Look its pretty clear that you don't agree with me, and I don't agree with you. I think that the talent level at Notre Dame is poor overall and you think that it is solely the fault of bad coaching. When the new staff comes in we'll be able to see one way or the other whether the numerous top ten classes that they have recruited were badly coached or badly overrated. Like so many things though its probably the middle ground that wins out and there isnt the talent level there and Weis and his staff didnt work with the better players they had on defence.

LuckyLloyd

frostie500 wrote: »

Post 49 in the thread for new mods, I was edited by yourself for implying SteelerSydney was trolling, as were some other posters. I feel that a mod should hold himself to same standard that he expects the rest of us to adhere to so please change your earlier posts

That wasn't why those posts were edited. If you want further clarification, contact me by PM.

LuckyLloyd

Brian Kelly will be the new coach at ND:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4732205

Delighted, the work he has done at UC is truly amazing. Taking a guy who has just led an unfancied program to an undefeated top five finish (and their second straight BCS bowl) bodes very well imo. It is a very different move to the Weis hire in that we have gone for an up and coming coach with great college credentials rather than a highly prized NFL co - coordinator.

eagle eye

Brian Kelly is a great appointment, he was favourite for the job all along despite all the rumours about Stoops.

frostie500

Great appointment for the Irish, but you'd have to question the logic of not playing in a bowl game seeing as how quickly they got Kelly. By opting out of bowl eligibility they are now not allowed to practice until Spring. You'd have to say with Clausen leaving they could have used the four or five weeks of practice to get their backup more integrated into the starting lineup and also it would give the Irish a leg up with implementing Kelly's playbook as well as obviously allowing Kelly to assess the talent level in more detail then just watching film

tallaghtoutlaws

frostie500 wrote: »

Great appointment for the Irish, but you'd have to question the logic of not playing in a bowl game seeing as how quickly they got Kelly. By opting out of bowl eligibility they are now not allowed to practice until Spring. You'd have to say with Clausen leaving they could have used the four or five weeks of practice to get their backup more integrated into the starting lineup and also it would give the Irish a leg up with implementing Kelly's playbook as well as obviously allowing Kelly to assess the talent level in more detail then just watching film

They wouldn't have gotton Kelly's playbook implemented in that short time frame. It would have been more like a skeleton playbook. They definitely could have run something though.

frostie500

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

They wouldn't have gotton Kelly's playbook implemented in that short time frame. It would have been more like a skeleton playbook. They definitely could have run something though.

Yeah it seems like a bit of ball dropping really to lose five weeks of evaluation and 'getting to know the new staff etc.'

LuckyLloyd

Leaving aside the fact that 6 - 6 teams have no business playing post season celebration games:

- Clausen a huge Weis fan who declared for the NFL immediately following his departure and Dayne Crist is not fully fit. You have no decent committed QB;

- Numerous dressing room leaders loyal to Weis are currently starters and won't be around next year;

- Assistant coaching roster will face severe turnover over the coming four weeks;

- College players won't imbue a playbook in less than a month working with a solid coaching staff, never mind one in turmoil;

- The immediate priority is getting Kelly out around America so that he can shore up this year's recruiting class. Detracting from that for the purposes of a meaningless bowl game would be crazy;

- The big picture is what is important. One game, or even one season is a very small part of that. Sacrificing some potential extra preparation for next year in lieu of the coach setting up his assistants and getting out recruiting is an easy decision to make;

frostie500

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Leaving aside the fact that 6 - 6 teams have no business playing post season celebration games:

True its crazy to celebrate and reward mediocrity

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Numerous dressing room leaders loyal to Weis are currently starters and won't be around next year;

Apart from seniors and Clausen and Tate who else will feel that they will get drafted early enough to warrent leaving now after poor seasons under Weis? If any of them do feel loyal to Weis, what benefit is there to that loyalty? Weis has no job at present, how can their loyalty pay off?

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Assistant coaching roster will face severe turnover over the coming four weeks;
College players won't imbue a playbook in less than a month working with a solid coaching staff, never mind one in turmoil;

Sources in Cinci and South Bend all say that with the new hire, just like any other coaching change, Kelly will take some of his coaches with Jeff Quinn-Offensive Coordinator and offensive line, Bob Diaco-Defensive Coordinator and linebackers, Mike Elston-Defensive line, Greg Forrest-Quarterbacks being his main assistants coming with him. That will make a fair difference in getting a basic understanding of the system that they are looking to run. I dont foresee them running a full playbook but with the inevitible switch to the spread offence with Kelly a month of practices will make a big difference

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The immediate priority is getting Kelly out around America so that he can shore up this year's recruiting class. Detracting from that for the purposes of a meaningless bowl game would be crazy;

How many players can Kelly realistically recruit at a decent level? Bear in mind to shore up this years class he has until the first week of Febuary when nearly all of the better players will sign letters of intent. Coaches dont make a big difference at this late stage when they change jobs for the current class, he will now look to get started on the next class. The only players he will be able to talk to are some Cinci recruits into changing to ND because he has built up a relationship with them but what chance has he in changing the minds of other players by attempting to recruit them so late in the day?

tallaghtoutlaws

frostie500 wrote: »

How many players can Kelly realistically recruit at a decent level? Bear in mind to shore up this years class he has until the first week of Febuary when nearly all of the better players will sign letters of intent. Coaches dont make a big difference at this late stage when they change jobs for the current class, he will now look to get started on the next class. The only players he will be able to talk to are some Cinci recruits into changing to ND because he has built up a relationship with them but what chance has he in changing the minds of other players by attempting to recruit them so late in the day?

Look at the Top 100 lists which are usually very accurate. Only 25% of the list have committed and the other 75% at this stage would have shortlisted their top colleges.

ND actually are on a lot of the top 20 lists so Kelly will do alright. As for your comment what can a coach do? I will tell you. Head Coaches have more affect on bringing kids to a college than anyone else. The reason for this is because when you are a head coach the kids look up to and it is seen as a honour to be visited by the HC of the school. It actually shows the Coach also wants you and not just the program. I know guys whos minds were changed by Head Coaches calling them or visiting them.

The fact Kelly has done a superb job with Grand Valley and then Central MI and then Cinci he will be in the respected range. Especially now he got the coach of the year award. His reputation will be very high right now and kids will know he can make them winners.

Never to late to recruit in college until the day they commit.

frostie500

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Look at the Top 100 lists which are usually very accurate. Only 25% of the list have committed and the other 75% at this stage would have shortlisted their top colleges.

ND actually are on a lot of the top 20 lists so Kelly will do alright. As for your comment what can a coach do? I will tell you. Head Coaches have more affect on bringing kids to a college than anyone else. The reason for this is because when you are a head coach the kids look up to and it is seen as a honour to be visited by the HC of the school. It actually shows the Coach also wants you and not just the program. I know guys whos minds were changed by Head Coaches calling them or visiting them.

The fact Kelly has done a superb job with Grand Valley and then Central MI and then Cinci he will be in the respected range. Especially now he got the coach of the year award. His reputation will be very high right now and kids will know he can make them winners.

Never to late to recruit in college until the day they commit.

I hear what youre saying Tallaght but if youre going up against the Pete Carolls, Mack Browns, Nick Sabans et el I dont believe that two months before signing day Kelly can realistically outrecruit for top prospects at this late stage. He will obviously get most of the talent already recruited(after a HC change there is usually a bit of fallout) and be able to pick up a few players but he will not be able to make a significant difference to the class.

If he is recruiting, as he now must because there is no bowl game, he is getting a head start on the 2011 class. That's no bad thing obviously but there will be very little difference, in terms of top talent, to the class of 2010 with Kelly recruiting now.

eagle eye

I don't expect to see major success in 2010, I don't think anybody does. I think its a smart move to start looking to the following season. Losing Clausen and Tate is a huge change not to mention Sam Young who I reckon is headed for a big career in the NFL and Eric Olsen the starting center, and Kyle McCarthy will be a big loss on D.

Having said that, on what I seen of Dane Crist this year I think he will suit a spread offense, he can run with the ball and it will utilise one of the two big play guys left on the team, that being Armando Allen. Michael Floyd will be back too so its not going to be that bad.

Kelly gets a totally free pass in his first season with all those big name starters leaving the team and it being his first year. Still it should be exciting though to watch his offense, I'm looking forward to it.

LuckyLloyd

eagle eye wrote: »

I don't expect to see major success in 2010, I don't think anybody does. I think its a smart move to start looking to the following season. Losing Clausen and Tate is a huge change not to mention Sam Young who I reckon is headed for a big career in the NFL and Eric Olsen the starting center, and Kyle McCarthy will be a big loss on D.

Having said that, on what I seen of Dane Crist this year I think he will suit a spread offense, he can run with the ball and it will utilise one of the two big play guys left on the team, that being Armando Allen. Michael Floyd will be back too so its not going to be that bad.

Kelly gets a totally free pass in his first season with all those big name starters leaving the team and it being his first year. Still it should be exciting though to watch his offense, I'm looking forward to it.

He looked absolutely horrific at times this season. Considering the hype when he was being recruited out of High School, his ND career has to be considered a major disappointment.