Who should start against the boks-Johnny or ROG? [Read Mod Note, Post 68,94,118]

Lord Trollington

As the title suggests, who do you think should start, and try not to make it a Leinster/Munster thing.
Base your vote on logic and the best selection for the Irish Rugby team for the 6 Nations in 2010 and World Cup on 2011.
What are your arguements for both players?

danthefan

Sexton. I would have started him against the Aussies and nothing has happened to change my mind, in fact the game today has solidified my opinion that he should start.

He won't though.

zenmonk

Is there not 3 threads like this already on the go?

thomond2006

Beat me to it OP.

I think Sexton should start for the reasons I outlined in the match thread.

He needs experience before the Six Nations.

Nobody wants the "If ROG gets injured, we're ****ed!" situation again now that we have an alternative.

Lord Trollington

Well considering we've seen him in the Irish first team for the first time tonight, i think we are better placed to make an informed decision.
People questioned his ability to make the step up to International Rugby.

Bikerbhoy

This as far as I can see is a no brainer.... Sexton to start and let him gain the experience of the game while he is in such good form it will do his confidence the world of good and if is not working bring on OGara..... it wont be as good a benefit for Sexton if its done the other way around....
so Johhnie to start for me.


And here lest we forget Ronan isnt at his best at the moment.... should Johnnie be a natural selection anyway..????

corny

This is all immaterial because ROG WILL be picked. The Springboks are going to have a look what Spies did to him in the 2nd Lions test and absolutely crucify him with big ball carriers running over him.

For his own good ROG shouldn't play against them:)

Aidric

zenmonk wrote: »

Is there not 3 threads like this already on the go?

No, 300.

Podge_irl

whycliff wrote: »

Well considering we've seen him in the Irish first team for the first time tonight, i think we are better placed to make an informed decision.
People questioned his ability to make the step up to International Rugby.

And those who said he was too inexperienced to start against Aus will say it was only Fiji. And those who think he should have started against Aus will say he should start against SA.

louthandproud

A rather tiresome subject at this stage and one that rarely gets enough objective opinions. I've voted for Sexton, however I think ROG may start due to the good old IRFU position on being risk averse in these matters and a desire to always win the next game rather than the important ones coming later.

JS thankfully stepped up to the plate big time tonight, although I wouldn't get carried away just yet as Fiji are no SA, however I feel JS did enough to prove his international credentials.

The most positive thing for me out of all of this is that both ROG and JS know that neither of them are now guaranteed the 10 jersey and will both have to fight to get and hold on to it (ROG I always thought was at his best when Humph was chomping at his heels).

This can only be good for Irish rugby in the longer term, and hopefully we will get another young gun to continue the challenge which has sadly been lacking in recent years, once ROG has migrated on out to pasture.

All hail the new king! (Sorry ROG but imho you are now the challenger)

louthandproud

Podge_irl wrote: »

And those who said he was too inexperienced to start against Aus will say it was only Fiji. And those who think he should have started against Aus will say he should start against SA.

You may be surprised to know that people other than yourself can have an opinion that they are capable of changing given reason to!

For example I myself would have said ROG for AUS and I would at that point have said JS for Fiji and ROG for SA too! But now thanks to a great performance tonight would pick JS for SA.

Surprised?

Way too much tribal bs on this subject.

gosplan

I don't think tonight really showed us too much that we didn't know already.

This was practically a Leinster home game for Sexton. Same stadium, same backline and the opposition weren't really top international standard.

The thing is, our kicking doesn't matter so much against SA as we should be trying to avoid it. Sexton seems the better man to make breaks but ROG showed some excellent passing last week.

It's a really tough one and for that reason I'd start with ROG and bring Sexton on.

FridaysWell

The game against South Africa is an important game for Irish Rugby, in terms of preperation for the Six Nations and in the long run, the World Cup.
However, there is no silverware or really anything largely important at stake when Ireland take on the Springboks. As people have said before.

Sexton should start, based on his form for Leinster and a little bit on his performance tonight. Given, it was only Fiji however.
He has stepped up from being on the bench against Munster in the Semi Final to starting in what was Leinsters biggest game ever.
And he came out on top.

Start Johnathan Sexton against South Africa, Mr.Kidney.
Its the perfect game to 'blood' him. O'Gara will always be up to the task, but its clear that Sexton has the potential and ability to step in, and step Irelands performance up a notch.

Sexton should start.

anonymous_joe

I'd prefer to wait until we see the South African team before deciding.

I'd personally like it to be 50/30 or so for the two out-halves. I don't really like that this has become ROG versus Sexton, and I know it has, I'd much rather it was O'Gara and Sexton, like Wales have done with Stephen Jones and Hook. Or Scotland do at SH with Blair and Cusiter.

Neither is a bad player, both bring a lot to the table. We do need to acknowldedge that we have two out-halves now.

FridaysWell

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I don't really like that this has become ROG versus Sexton, and I know it has, I'd much rather it was O'Gara and Sexton

Only one can wear the 10 jersey.
They train together, work together, help each other.
But on the day the better of the two should wear the 10 jersey.
Versus is good for a team, mostly that position, that needs competition.

anonymous_joe

FridaysWell wrote: »

Only one can wear the 10 jersey.
They train together, work together, help each other.
But on the day the better of the two should wear the 10 jersey.
Versus is good for a team, mostly that position, that needs competition.

Someone has to wear 21. Being able to use both would be fantastic.

Diabhal Beag

Hope Kidney gives 40 minutes to each TBH. They are both good players and O'Gara has been a great servant to the country and deserves a fair chance, but I can see why people see Sexton as the top out-half ATM.

It's great to see competition hotting up for out-half two years before the World Cup.

stephen_n

Honestly there are merits to both starting but I would say Sexton purely and simply because it is a nothing match and he needs the experience. He showed tonight he has the temperament but we would be far better placed heading to the next RWC with two experienced out halfs.

Unfortunately we place far too much importance on these games and for that reason Deccie will start ROG

stephen_n

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Someone has to wear 21. Being able to use both would be fantastic.

Unfortunately that would be more likely Paddy Wallace as Kidney will probably not carry a specialist OH and SH on the bench and neither ROG nor Johnny play anywhere else!

anonymous_joe

stephen_n wrote: »

Unfortunately that would be more likely Paddy Wallace as Kidney will probably not carry a specialist OH and SH on the bench and neither ROG nor Johnny play anywhere else!

True. Although if Wallace is on the pitch I suppose you could leave out one out-half...

irishbucsfan

stephen_n wrote: »

Unfortunately that would be more likely Paddy Wallace as Kidney will probably not carry a specialist OH and SH on the bench and neither ROG nor Johnny play anywhere else!

Kidney had Reddan and Sexton on the bench against Australia, I'd imagine he'll do the same this week.

stephen_n

anonymous_joe wrote: »

True. Although if Wallace is on the pitch I suppose you could leave out one out-half...

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Kidney had Reddan and Sexton on the bench against Australia, I'd imagine he'll do the same this week.

True, I suppose it depends on who starts at 12 and although Darcy did ok tonight I'm assuming that will be Wallace as Joe said

Podge_irl

One of the less noticed, but more important things Sexton did tonight was to rush out of defence and nail the Fijian ballcarrier towards the end of the game when they were pressing on the Irish line. It led to the penalty that let Ireland clear their lines and score the last try.

fitz

Form aside, Sexton is a better ophton in terms of physicality, defense and variety of play. I really can't see how that's in question, and I really think the physicality aspect will be huge against SA. ROG, if started, will be targeted in a big way, as he's something of a defensive soft spot. They'll hammer that channel, and likely get results. With Sexton at 10, I'm not so sure.

However, the danger starting Sexton is the affect it will have on him if he has to be taken off after starting, if things aren't going well.

Despite that, I'd love to see him start, though I think Kidney will play it safe and start ROG. Which is a bit chicken/egg to me: go for the player with the experience but not the form over the player with the form but not the experience, despite the fact that this would be an ideal time to throw Sexton in the deep-end and get him some really top level international game-time, without anything significant on the line.

If we're serious about building the squad for the next World Cup, Sexton should start.

Teferi

Sexton (I clicked ROG by mistake). The lad needs a test against a team that is actually a test and I would predict he would come up trumps especially after today.

Spore

Are we not missing the point here? That we now have two class out halves that can both mix it up, change the game if either comes on, different game plays, both consummate professionals when on form. ROG won't be forgotten by Kidney as quickly as some posters on here would like to believe.

ROG has been an absolute asset to this team and will continue to be. The least he deserves is a little faith by management. We won't lose much by starting him and having Sexton on the bench in case he doesn't fire (which he will by having a credible alternative breathing down his neck). ROG saved our skins for over five years by being a big-game player, kicking consistently and never getting injured. Why are we so quick to forget all that?!! And I'm a Leinster supporter.

Spore

Spore wrote: »

Are we not missing the point here? That we now have two class out halves that can both mix it up, change the game if either comes on, different game plays, both consummate professionals when on form. ROG won't be forgotten by Kidney as quickly as some posters on here would like to believe.

ROG has been an absolute asset to this team and will continue to be. The least he deserves is a little faith by management. We won't lose much by starting him and having Sexton on the bench in case he doesn't fire (which he will by having a credible alternative breathing down his neck). ROG saved our skins for over five years by being a big-game player, kicking consistently and never getting injured. Why are we so quick to forget all that?!! And I'm a Leinster supporter.

I for one will never forget Keith Wood as an incredible Irish Hooker, however, I would not have him starting at 2 next weekend.

Teams change, players come in and old players finish up. I'm not saying O'Gara's anywhere near finished, but it is possible to drift out of your best form, and hopefully come back in. Not starting O'Gara is saying absolutely nothing about him as an Irish asset. He dragged us through thick and thin for many years, and hopefully will return to do the same in the next few seasons. But there is a real opportunity here for us to finally look forward, and have viable options at 10, someone we haven't had since D.Humphries stopped playing years ago.

O'Gara has done incredibly well to have steered clear of injuries, illnesses and all other influences which could cause you to miss a game. We have been very fortunate that he has actually been physically able to play pretty much every game we've had in last 8 years! But, if we never ever let someone else into that 10 jersey we are doing the team serious harm, both in the long and short run.

After O'Gara's improvement last weekend, I think he will start on Saturday, and hopefully he will play a blinder. I hope Sexton can come from the bench on 50/55 mins, and change something, spark something.

anonymous_joe's post is spot on, having 2 quality OH's can only benefit us

corny

Spore wrote: »

Are we not missing the point here? That we now have two class out halves that can both mix it up, change the game if either comes on, different game plays, both consummate professionals when on form. ROG won't be forgotten by Kidney as quickly as some posters on here would like to believe.

ROG has been an absolute asset to this team and will continue to be. The least he deserves is a little faith by management. We won't lose much by starting him and having Sexton on the bench in case he doesn't fire (which he will by having a credible alternative breathing down his neck). ROG saved our skins for over five years by being a big-game player, kicking consistently and never getting injured. Why are we so quick to forget all that?!! And I'm a Leinster supporter.

Kidneys job is to pick the best team not reward past achievements. ROG is a great pro and its not an affront to him to say he's now second best. And he is second best and it is as simple as that.

OldJay

louthandproud wrote: »

A rather tiresome subject at this stage and one that rarely gets enough objective opinions. I've voted for Sexton, however I think ROG may start due to the good old IRFU position on being risk averse in these matters and a desire to always win the next game rather than the important ones coming later

The IRFU does not pick the team. Dec Kidney, his coaches, team manager and captain do.

phog

corny wrote: »

Kidneys job is to pick the best team not reward past achievements. ROG is a great pro and its not an affront to him to say he's now second best. And he is second best and it is as simple as that.

In picking the team how does Kideny define "best", is it the best option at each position or the best option taking into account the rest of the team, the strategy for the game, who's on the bench. Does his view of who is better come from what he sees a player do on the field or does he take into account what he sees on the training field? Should he take into account experience?

BTW, Just because you state ROG is 2nd best doesn't actually make it a fact.

For what it's worth, to give Sexton more game time in preparation for the 6Ns I'd start him, but if the game next week was a real decider without question I'd start ROG.

Lord Trollington

phog wrote: »

For what it's worth, to give Sexton more game time in preparation for the 6Ns I'd start him, but if the game next week was a real decider without question I'd start ROG.

I agree ROG has done it time and time again at the top level under pressure, whether is Heineken Cup, or 6 Nations.
We know what he has to offer at this stage, what more can we learn about him?


However, next weeks game whilst there is nothing at stake,will be important to the Irish, its not every week you get to play the World champions.
Also they will move up in the World rankings.
Also there is the Croke Park factor.

It is in my opinion its an ideal game to start JS, its an importantish game, with nothing at stake.
It will be out of his comfort zone, the RDS against top class players and will be a huge huge test for him.
Its our last chance to blood him properly before the 6 Nations.

I would really love to see what he has to offer against the springbox...

louthandproud

Justind wrote: »

The IRFU does not pick the team. Dec Kidney, his coaches, team manager and captain do.

I am aware of that, however the IRFU have always had a culture of picking teams to win every game (previously the IRFU did pick the team directly too) rather than perhaps taking risks in lesser matches for long term benefit. This culture has in the past been reflected in supposedly independent coaches team selections even if it wasn't directly mandated to the coach in an official way. I hope this isn't the case during Decs tenure but it has been the case in the past.

mr_edge_to_you

the big issue in my opinion is that if o'gara starts next week, he will subsequently start the six nations. that will mean (potentially) it will 2011 before sexton gets to start a six nations game. he'll be almost 26. form is with sexton but kidney will probably stick with o'gara.

thehighground

mr_edge_to_you wrote: »

the big issue in my opinion is that if o'gara starts next week, he will subsequently start the six nations. that will mean (potentially) it will 2011 before sexton gets to start a six nations game. he'll be almost 26. form is with sexton but kidney will probably stick with o'gara.

I don't see why you come to that conclusion. I could definately see him starting against Scotland & Italy.

mr_edge_to_you

I beleive that the momentum is with Sexton. That could've changed by the time the Six Nations comes around. With Kidney you suspect that he will stick with the tried and tested. The IRFU is also a big business and a win against SA with an experienced team will significantly boost the coffers.

In fairness, I would rate starting against Scotland and Italy (at home) not much higher than starting against Fiji. Jonathon Sexton is at a stage now where he needs to be playing at the highest level. I think all rugby players hit a stage in their development where they simply need to start playing regularly at the highest level. He needs to be playing against the likes of France and Wales (comfortably) before going to the World Cup if we are to really have a backup to O'Gara - if O'Gara is still 1st choice when that time comes.

corny

phog wrote: »

In picking the team how does Kideny define "best", is it the best option at each position or the best option taking into account the rest of the team, the strategy for the game, who's on the bench. Does his view of who is better come from what he sees a player do on the field or does he take into account what he sees on the training field? Should he take into account experience?

BTW, Just because you state ROG is 2nd best doesn't actually make it a fact.

For what it's worth, to give Sexton more game time in preparation for the 6Ns I'd start him, but if the game next week was a real decider without question I'd start ROG.

It is fact. Objectively analyse whats happened with each over the last 6 months and you can only come to one conclusion. Sextons the better player at the moment. Defence, attack, kicking, whatever you like ROG hasn't been up to scratch for a good while now and you'd expect Sexton to take the step up like he has every other step up, in his stride.

ROG's experience is leading to average performance after average performance so at what point do you drop him? You don't is the feeling i get and if i was a betting man i'd say ROG will start every important game for us until after 2011. That doesn't make it the correct decision.

For defensive reasons alone ROG shouldn't play against the Boks next week. He's a liability against their gameplan. Fourie will run over him a few times more.

thehighground

corny wrote: »

It is fact. Objectively analyse whats happened with each over the last 6 months and you can only come to one conclusion. Sextons the better player at the moment. Defence, attack, kicking, whatever you like ROG hasn't been up to scratch for a good while now and you'd expect Sexton to take the step up like he has every other step up, in his stride.

ROG's experience is leading to average performance after average performance so at what point do you drop him? You don't is the feeling i get and if i was a betting man i'd say ROG will start every important game for us until after 2011. That doesn't make it the correct decision.

For defensive reasons alone ROG shouldn't play against the Boks next week. He's a liability against their gameplan. Fourie will run over him a few times more.

Running at O'Gara didn't do Du Preez much good back in 2004 when Ireland beat SA 17-12. ROG scored all points including a try. ROG's defence was really bad back then by the way.

thehighground

thehighground wrote: »

Running at O'Gara didn't do Du Preez much good back in 2004 when Ireland beat SA 17-12. ROG scored all points including a try. ROG's defence was really bad back then by the way.

Unfortunately Du Preez has improved immensely. I would also love to have the O'Gara of 2004 playing, not the O'Gara of 2009.

This silly tit for tat is going nowhere fast. Every player has their faults, and everyone can find an example of them either showing, or disproving their faults. Stop this crap one-up-man-ship. Nobody really wins in a pissing contest, cause you both have to show each other your knobs

danthefan

thehighground wrote: »

Running at O'Gara didn't do Du Preez much good back in 2004 when Ireland beat SA 17-12. ROG scored all points including a try. ROG's defence was really bad back then by the way.

So what? What on earth does that have to do with anything? You're trying to counter arguments about form by bringing stuff up that happened 5 years ago, absolutely ridiculous.

corny

thehighground wrote: »

Running at O'Gara didn't do Du Preez much good back in 2004 when Ireland beat SA 17-12. ROG scored all points including a try. ROG's defence was really bad back then by the way.

Jacques Fourie not Fourie Du Preez. Lions 2nd Test. Decisive score Fourie running over ROG near the sideline. Spies did the same thing a couple of times. Shook him up. They'd be fools not to try it again. They're not fools. They'll try injure him they'll run that hard at him.

thehighground

danthefan wrote: »

So what? What on earth does that have to do with anything? You're trying to counter arguments about form by bringing stuff up that happened 5 years ago, absolutely ridiculous.

Excuse me for rebutting Corny's comment that SA will have a field day against O'Gara because of his defence since the last two times we played against them we won. (2004 & 2006).

danthefan

thehighground wrote: »

Excuse me for rebutting Corny's comment that SA will have a field day against O'Gara because of his defence since the last two times we played against them we won. (2004 & 2006).

But conveniently ignoring the last time ROG played against SA?

thehighground

corny wrote: »

Jacques Fourie not Fourie Du Preez. Lions 2nd Test. Decisive score Fourie running over ROG near the sideline. Spies did the same thing a couple of times. Shook him up. They'd be fools not to try it again. They're not fools. They'll try injure him they'll run that hard at him.

Wasn't O'Gara playing centre - not OH? No one has claimed that he is as defensively good as O'Driscoll.

Do you honestly expect Sexton to stay upright with either Spies or Fourie running at him?

danthefan

danthefan wrote: »

But conveniently ignoring the last time ROG played against SA?

leave him be, he's as stubborn as he is misguided. See my post re: pissing contests

danthefan

thehighground wrote: »

Wasn't O'Gara playing centre - not OH? No one has claimed that he is as defensively good as O'Driscoll.

Do you honestly expect Sexton to stay upright with either Spies or Fourie running at him?

Don't know, haven't ever seen him run over though. Basically always completes the tackle.

Do you honestly think ROG is as good a defender as Sexton?

thehighground

danthefan wrote: »

But conveniently ignoring the last time ROG played against SA?

5 minutes off the bench playing as a centre wasn't exactly playing SA, with the Lions suffering numerous injuries was it?

corny

thehighground wrote: »

Excuse me for rebutting Corny's comment that SA will have a field day against O'Gara because of his defence since the last two times we played against them we won. (2004 & 2006).

2006 was a shadow team as i remember. 2004? A game 5 years ago as current form isn't a rebuttal i'm afraid.

danthefan

thehighground wrote: »

5 minutes off the bench playing as a centre wasn't exactly playing SA, with the Lions suffering numerous injuries was it?

So that's why he missed all those tackles. Would have have made them if he lined up at OH?

corny

thehighground wrote: »

5 minutes off the bench playing as a centre wasn't exactly playing SA, with the Lions suffering numerous injuries was it?

Doesn't matter where he plays they'll find him. And again doesn't matter where he played he had a one on one with Fourie and was absolutely poll axed by him. If he had managed to slow him up even slightly (Peter Stringer would have managed it) Fourie would have been caught by the cover.

Shook him and he lost the head giving away the penalty later. Not trying to take ROG's character here. He's a braver man than i am getting in Spies' way in the first place but he is a liability against these fellas

This thread

=

thehighground

danthefan wrote: »

Don't know, haven't ever seen him run over though. Basically always completes the tackle.

Do you honestly think ROG is as good a defender as Sexton?

Playing at the same level as Sexton has been, O'Gara doesn't look too troubled. We haven't seen anyone run at Sexton yet. And I have seen him lose his head when he gets a bit of rough treatment.

And before you start, it wasn't just O'Gara who lost the last Heineken Cup semi.