Polite racism and schools

Tim Robbins

Hi,
I think the gaelscoileanna are used by many parents who have what I would called polite racism syndrome.

These are the type who:

1. say things like "I'm not racist but...."
2. say things like "I just feel we are loosing are sense of Irishness"
3. haven't a clue about the Irish language or any other language. They can't even speak English very well.

Obviously there are parents who have a genuine interest in bringing their kids up as gaeilge and speak it at home but for many others the choice of gaelscoileanna appears nothing more than polite racism or xenophobia.

Discuss...

PaulieD

We took my little brother out of his Catholic primary school class and sent him to a Gaelscoil instead. The difference in his development is amazing. In his original class, there were only five Irish students, the rest were foreigners. The teacher spent half the day teaching the foreign pupils English. Oh, and the teacher told me this herself.

simu

Why are you pointing out Gaelscoileanna in particular?

One could make the same hypotheses about parents who send their children to, say, fee-paying schools.

Tim Robbins

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Hi,
I think the gaelscoileanna are used by many parents who have what I would called polite racism syndrome.

These are the type who:

1. say things like "I'm not racist but...."
2. say things like "I just feel we are loosing are sense of Irishness"
3. haven't a clue about the Irish language or any other language. They can't even speak English very well.
Obviously there are parents who have a genuine interest in bringing their kids up as gaeilge and speak it at home but for many others the choice of gaelscoileanna appears nothing more than polite racism or xenophobia.

Discuss...

I love irony

I don't frequent this forum much but this thread caught my eye.

I think gaelscoileanna in general are excellent schools and I think it is wonderful that parents want to give their child a chance to be fluent in our national language. I don't speak much Irish but that does not mean that I don't love the language and think it would be fantastic if my children did too. Do you need to have gone to a gaelscoil to send your own kids to one?

I really don't think it has anything to do with racism. That just seems like such a bizarre theory to me?! I have never heard of anyone sending their child to an irish school because they didn't want them mixing with foreign kids!

There is however one Irish school near my area which is not so good, there are alot of would be republican's children attending but I don't think this is normal, it's completely to do with it's location. Scoil Lorcan and Colaiste Iosagain/Eoin are considered some of the best schools in the country.

Danniboo

How is it racist to want children to keep up our Irish traditions and learn our language. Also most "Catholic" schools are no longer catholic so I presume that this is main stream religion in the Gael Scoils. My little sister is making her conformation next year and has to stay back for an extra hour every Wednesday to learn religion as they teach them about religions such as buddhism and religions from all around the world. Which on one hand is cool but it's affecting her relgious education. Not to mention how unpractical it is. She has to walk the whole way home because she misses her bus and my mam has to pay extra for the privilege. I would not consider myself a racist at all but I do think the PC brigade has gone mad. If we travel to other countries we respect other peoples religion eg covering up, being silent in temples etc.

Yet we are taking down Holy Mary statues and crucifixes everywhere and now people are racist for sending their children to the Gael Scoil. I'm not a mad religious person or anything but do have my beliefs.

metrovelvet

I think it is weird that you have to go to a specia school or take special classes to learn your language. It indicates that it is not "your language" but a second language, instead of belonging to another nation, Irish belongs to another epoch.

If it were your language you wouldnt need school to learn it.

Also I think anyone who DOESNT go to a gaelscoil should get an automatic extra 10 percent on their leaving cert since they are at a disadvantage.

AARRRGH

Tim Robbins wrote: »

1. say things like "I'm not racist but...."
2. say things like "I just feel we are loosing are sense of Irishness"
3. haven't a clue about the Irish language or any other language. They can't even speak English very well.

What do any of those examples have to do with racism?

Tim Robbins

PaulieD wrote: »

We took my little brother out of his Catholic primary school class and sent him to a Gaelscoil instead. The difference in his development is amazing. In his original class, there were only five Irish students, the rest were foreigners. The teacher spent half the day teaching the foreign pupils English. Oh, and the teacher told me this herself.

Very interesting. So your child can learn Irish quicker than other children can learn English.

Tim Robbins

Deleted User wrote: »

I love irony

I don't frequent this forum much but this thread caught my eye.

I think gaelscoileanna in general are excellent schools and I think it is wonderful that parents want to give their child a chance to be fluent in our national language.

Don't see why you need gaelscoileanna for that.
I was fluent in Irish by age 14. Was on the school Irish debating team.

There is however one Irish school near my area which is not so good, there are alot of would be republican's children attending but I don't think this is normal, it's completely to do with it's location. Scoil Lorcan and Colaiste Iosagain/Eoin are considered some of the best schools in the country.

Very good point.

Tim Robbins

AARRRGH wrote: »

What do any of those examples have to do with racism?

1. "I'm not racist but..." is usually followed by something racist.
2. "I just feel we are loosing are sense of Irishness" can usually never be substantiated and is just a polite way of saying there are too many foreigners here.
3. "haven't a clue about the Irish language or any other language."

I find it bizarre that parents who can't speak Irish think their kids should go to a Gaelscoileanna.

If the language is so important, they should learn it themselves and speak it.

Which they never do which suggests their kids school choice is for some other reason: stay away from the blackies.

Danniboo

Tim Robbins wrote: »

2. "I just feel we are loosing are sense of Irishness" can usually never be substantiated and is just a polite way of saying there are too many foreigners here.

The Australians have stopped giving out working VISAs to foreign nationals due to the economic downturn. That is a huge continent, we are an Island, yet if we refuse to accommodate the foreign nationals by the bucket load we're "racist".

meditraitor

Now this one takes the biscut

Gaelscoil = racist parent

My take on it would be

Gaelscoil = racist person = stupid

Tim Robbins

meditraitor wrote: »

Now this one takes the biscut

Gaelscoil = racist parent

My take on it would be

Gaelscoil = racist person = stupid

Thinking the upsurge in gaelscoileanna when there's a wave of immigration in our country just a co-incidence = naeive.

Tim Robbins

Danniboo wrote: »

The Australians have stopped giving out working VISAs to foreign nationals due to the economic downturn. That is a huge continent, we are an Island, yet if we refuse to accommodate the foreign nationals by the bucket load we're "racist".

Australian is not a continent it is an island. Unless you include Tasmania which is also an island.

We are part of the EU which means anyone from the EU is allowed work here and we are allowed to work anywhere within the EU. Outside of that you need some sort of a visa.

meditraitor

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Thinking the upsurge in gaelscoileanna when there's a wave of immigration in our country just a co-incidence = naeive.

Do you honestly think that racism is the reason for the increase in Gaelscoil attendence or are you looking to fill in a few hours before finishing work?

The reason I ask this is because I would attribute the increase in gaelscoil attendence to the increase in Gaelscoil places, maybe im mad

Tim Robbins

meditraitor wrote: »

Do you honestly think that racism is the reason for the increase in Gaelscoil attendence or are you looking to fill in a few hours before finishing work?

The reason I ask this is because I would attribute the increase in gaelscoil attendence to the increase in Gaelscoil places, maybe im mad

Yeah. I remember having a huge grá for the Irish language when everyone else I knew hated it or just ha dno interest in it. The only reason why I think it has become interesting is because it is a convenient way to avoid foreigners.

Note, I don't include parents who have a genuine interest in the language in this bracket, but when it's clear they don't I do.

meditraitor

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Yeah. I remember having a huge grá for the Irish language when everyone else I knew hated it or just ha dno interest in it. The only reason why I think it has become interesting is because it is a convenient way to avoid foreigners.

Note, I don't include parents who have a genuine interest in the language in this bracket, but when it's clear they don't I do.

Your not giving me anything to go with here, you say the increase in attendence of gaelscoil is down to racism but your only basis for this is a feeling, come on- elaborate.

Kooli

So it sounds like people send their kids to gaeilscoils for 2 reasons that I can see from this thread

1) they want their kids to be fluent in Irish
2) they want their kid to be in a class with fewer foreign kids because it takes up too much of the teacher's time.

Tim Robbins you are suggesting a third option which is that they are racist. Do you mean option 2 above (which isn't racist) or a third option, which is

3) they don't want foreign kids in their kid's class because they hate foreigners.

meditraitor

Kooli wrote: »

3) they don't want foreign kids in their kid's class because they hate foreigners.

If they exist these parents are going to hate it when I send my little one to the gaelscoil, at that stage she will almost certainly be fluent in 2 languages, neither of which will be Irish

simu

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Thinking the upsurge in gaelscoileanna when there's a wave of immigration in our country just a co-incidence = naeive.

Thinking correlation = causation is bad, mkay?

Danniboo

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Australian is not a continent it is an island. Unless you include Tasmania which is also an island.

We are part of the EU which means anyone from the EU is allowed work here and we are allowed to work anywhere within the EU. Outside of that you need some sort of a visa.

This is actually a debated topic. Go google. Anyways that's irrelevant to the point i'm making which is why one place can refuse foreign nationals from their country, Island continent, whatever makes you happya and this is okay but because Irish people are sending their Irish kids to Irish schools they are racist??????? Seriously?????

PaulieD

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Very interesting. So your child can learn Irish quicker than other children can learn English.

Quite possibly, my sister is fluent in the language and speaks it with my brother at home in her house. Maybe that helped.

PaulieD

Tim Robbins wrote: »

1. "I'm not racist but..." is usually followed by something racist.
2. "I just feel we are loosing are sense of Irishness" can usually never be substantiated and is just a polite way of saying there are too many foreigners here.
3. "haven't a clue about the Irish language or any other language."

I find it bizarre that parents who can't speak Irish think their kids should go to a Gaelscoileanna.

If the language is so important, they should learn it themselves and speak it.

Which they never do which suggests their kids school choice is for some other reason: stay away from the blackies.

So no evidence then. Just another thread about us evil racist Paddy's. :rolleyes:

profitius

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Hi,

2. say things like "I just feel we are loosing are sense of Irishness"

We are. Some may not want to admit it but more multiculturism = less Irishness.

994

if parents in Nigeria wanted to send their children to Igbo- or Yoruba-speaking schools, what would you think?

Nodin

profitius wrote: »

We are. Some may not want to admit it but more multiculturism = less Irishness.

Yes, we're being swamped by Polish ways and the children are always using Urdu slang because of those imported TV programmes.......

PaulieD

Nodin wrote: »

Yes, we're being swamped by Polish ways and the children are always using Urdu slang because of those imported TV programmes.......

You would be surprised. When my brother was celebrating "Africa Week"(I sh*t thee not) at a time when he couldnt do simple math problems, we knew it was time to get him the hell out. Now, hes fluent in Irish, excelling in all subjects and possesses a better grasp of French than myself. My advice to anyone with a young child is to avoid schools with high numbers of immigrant children. Your childs education depends on it.

mikemac

Teachers have a curriculum to follow and most can do an excellent job and the students will do well.

Now if your child's school is an area where many of their classmates don't have English as a first language the pace of study immediately slows down.
Probably to the pace of the slowest student.

People were sending their children to Gaelscoileanna long before this issue ever arrived in Ireland.
It's likely some Irish parents chose a Gaelscoileanna as they won't have this issue and their children will do better
And there is nothing wrong with this at all. Thought it'd be good to see the parents make an effort at learning Irish too

herya

profitius wrote: »

We are. Some may not want to admit it but more multiculturism = less Irishness.

TBH with you my main observation in Ireland is that it's losing Irish culture in favour of British (pop)culture. The best way to preserve Irish culture would be to ban Sky and British high street chains, plus British newspapers. The influence of all other immigrant cultures combined is nowhere near.

Any key?

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Thinking the upsurge in gaelscoileanna when there's a wave of immigration in our country just a co-incidence = naeive.

Perhaps parents today have gone through our countries education system and are aware getting a good grasp of the Irish langauge is important if you want to do well in secondary school exams. I worked my ass off to do Honours Irish for leaving certificate and at the time wished I'd gone to a gaelscoil and grasped it as easily as many of the other students in my class. Why wouldn't you want your children to go to a school where they are going to be offered a chance to speak Irish informally and learn a language the best way you can. It will be a skill they have for life not one that falls out of their head the Summer after the leaving cert.

what a strange generalisation to make - All gaelscoil parents are racist?

There is a gaelscoil educate together beside me....how are they racist?
Ag foghlaim le chéile and many of the children who attend are foreign nationals.Are their parents racist too?

Wibbs

simu wrote: »

Why are you pointing out Gaelscoileanna in particular?

One could make the same hypotheses about parents who send their children to, say, fee-paying schools.

I would agree on both points.

Though I have personally heard on enough occasions for it to be noted that parents have sent their kids to such schools because of the lack of foreigners. They've admitted it clearly. I've been with a mate who has kids in an Irish school when he was chatting away with other parents and that was one of the big reasons for it. He also admits it is. They add to that with stuff about teacher pupil ratios as well, but the lack of the non nationals is a selling point, even though I'm sure that's certainly not the intention behind either type of schools. It is a part of the reality though.

While I also agree re correlation = causation, the popularity of such schools has a trajectory that does mirror the influx of non nationals to this country.

Standard stuff really. I mean many Muslim parents would likely put their kids in Muslim schools if such were available. Like in the UK and France as an example. Tribalism is everywhere. Its not dependent on race.

Valmont

Some people send their children to Irish schools so that the child can become fluent in Irish.

Some people send their children to Irish schools because they like the location or some other arbitrary quality.

Maybe some people send their children to Irish schools because they hate foreigners.

Guys, if you just take the absolutes out of your opinions then there is no real argument. It's impossible for us to know right now, in the absence of any actual statistical data, the actual reasons (beyond the obvious first one) why parents may endeavour to enroll their child in an Irish school.

mikemac

Valmont wrote: »

Maybe some people send their children to Irish schools because they hate foreigners.

A good post
Though to select one part I wouldn't say it's hate.
No parent would want their child in a class where many of students had limited knowledge of the local languages and it slowed everybody down. In some areas that's a majority of the class and extra resources and teachers aren't always available to a school
The lessons go at the pace of the slowest student

If there is a better alternative then go for it

You had a good post, I just quoted one part of it

Kooli

mikemac wrote: »

A good post
Though to select one part I wouldn't say it's hate.
No parent would want their child in a class where many of students had limited knowledge of the local languages and it slowed everybody down. In some areas that's a majority of the class and extra resources and teachers aren't always available to a school
The lessons go at the pace of the slowest student

If there is a better alternative the go for it

Yeah I think this is the crux of it.
Wanting to send your kid to a school that will have fewer non-English speaking children is not actually racist.

PaulieD

Kooli wrote: »

Yeah I think this is the crux of it.
Wanting to send your kid to a school that will have fewer non-English speaking children is not actually racist.

Its simply ensuring your child gets the best education possible. In schools that have large numbers of foreign born children they are struggling to keep up with the curriculum due to the pupils poor grasp of the english language. These will have major repercussions for both the Irish and foreign pupils in the future.

Fine Gaels Brian Hayes came up with a perfectly reasonable solution to the problem and was accussed of racism, as per usual in this pox of a country.

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2008/08/20/story70253.asp

mikemac

FG education spokesman Brian Hayes drew the heavy fire after he urged the separation of immigrant children having difficulty with English from mainstream classes until their language skills improved.

I see nothing wrong with the proposal.
The students who are limited with English or Irish will have a few weeks to improve their knowledge and confidence.
Once they hit a standard they can rejoin the class and they'll catch up no problem

I did the same in college, those who had never owned or barely used a computer (like me) got separated for a few weeks while we learned the basics like MS Word and how to save files and spreadsheets. And were sent back to class after a few weeks and we didn't slow down anyone

And this is racist? :eek:

PaulieD

mikemac wrote: »

And this is racist? :eek:

The Anti Racism quangos compared it to apartheid.

Nodin

herya wrote: »

TBH with you my main observation in Ireland is that it's losing Irish culture in favour of British (pop)culture.

Absolutely, followed by Americanisation.

PaulieD

Nodin wrote: »

Absolutely, followed by Americanisation.

You must not have any young relatives in primary school.

asdasd

I often wonder why these threads are never:

The middle classes, racist and classist in their choice of Fee pay schools and places to live in. discuss!

Of course the concentration of Gael Scolleanna as a way to avoid State schools where the children of immigrants may be taking more of the teacher's time than a parent may wish may well be true, but then so is, um, paying for an expensive house in an area which is 100% white, and 100% middle class. And/ or Fee paying schools...

as usual with the incredible hypocricy of the upper middle classes on this issue, they lead the charge to the richer areas of Dublin where thyey pay more for housing than they need to, specificially to be with "their kind". Both class, and enthic kind.

From the height of such absurdities ( I'd buy a house in the country meself) they whine about one of the mechanisms for the lower middle classes to maybe escape sh*t shchools made sh*tter by multi-cultural ideologies which dont affect the elite.

Zombrex

Tim Robbins wrote: »

If the language is so important, they should learn it themselves and speak it.

Which they never do which suggests their kids school choice is for some other reason: stay away from the blackies.

1. Send kids to Irish school
2. ???
3. No black grand children


I'm not following ....

Are you saying that they are trying to ensure they will never mix with children from immigrant families?

Tim Robbins

Any key? wrote: »

what a strange generalisation to make - All gaelscoil parents are racist?

No-one made that generalisation so Idon't know what put that idea into your head.

Read my posts properly before making such a ridiculous comment.

Tim Robbins

Wicknight wrote: »

Are you saying that they are trying to ensure they will never mix with children from immigrant families?

Correct. People who haven't a clue about Irish and send their kids to Gaelscoileanna are usually doing it to keep their kids away from immigrants.

People who are interested in Irish (i.e. can speak it) and send their kids to Gaelscoileanna are usually doing it because they are interested in Irish.

Nodin

PaulieD wrote: »

You must not have any young relatives in primary school.

O but I do, and one in a Gaelscoil....where (certainly the last time I was there) there was indeed a few "non-nationals".....Yet strangely the only blatant "foreign" influence seems to be him saying stuff like "o man" and (when he was younger) being under the mistaken impression that we used "dollars"....

Mind you it always strike me as a bit odd that I - a life long supporter of the Republican movement - and any other I know of a similar background don't feel in any way shape or form threatened by Poles, Nigerians, "muslims" or whoever else is living in our country, yet (especially) since the ceasefire every little eejit with a grudge claims their excuse as "nationalism" before yammering on about some minority or other. I suppose now they think its safe for armchair deployment.

Tim Robbins

Nodin wrote: »

O but I do, and one in a Gaelscoil....where (certainly the last time I was there) there was indeed a few "non-nationals".....Yet strangely the only blatant "foreign" influence seems to be him saying stuff like "o man" and (when he was younger) being under the mistaken impression that we used "dollars"....

Mind you it always strike me as a bit odd that I - a life long supporter of the Republican movement - and any other I know of a similar background don't feel in any way shape or form threatened by Poles, Nigerians, "muslims" or whoever else is living in our country, yet (especially) since the ceasefire every little eejit with a grudge claims their excuse as "nationalism" before yammering on about some minority or other. I suppose now they think its safe for armchair deployment.

Nodin, as a matter of interest what type of school would you prefer to send your kids to?

Nodin

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Nodin, as a matter of interest what type of school would you prefer to send your kids to?

I would have thought that remarkably obvious by implication from the previous post. It has, however, nothing to do with avoiding foreign nationals (though former foreign nationals would be more appropriate in many cases).

PaulieD

Nodin wrote: »

Mind you it always strike me as a bit odd that I - a life long supporter of the Republican movement - and any other I know of a similar background don't feel in any way shape or form threatened by Poles, Nigerians, "muslims" or whoever else is living in our country, yet (especially) since the ceasefire every little eejit with a grudge claims their excuse as "nationalism" before yammering on about some minority or other. I suppose now they think its safe for armchair deployment.

Checks the time. Yup, Nods on the gargul.

So, only militant republicans can be true Irish nationalists?:D

PaulieD

Nodin wrote: »

I would have thought that remarkably obvious by implication from the previous post. It has, however, nothing to do with avoiding foreign nationals (though former foreign nationals would be more appropriate in many cases).

Former foreign nationals? You are comedy gold.

foxcomm

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foxcomm

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PaulieD

foxcomm wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Heres Michael Collins's view.

On Culture:
(pp. 109-10) "We have now won the first victory... We re now free in name. The extent to which we become free in fact and secure our freedom will be the extent to which we become Gaels again. It is a hard task. The machine of the British armed force, which tried to crush us, we could see with our physical eyes. We could touch it. We could put our physical strength against it. We could see their agents in uniform and under arms. We could see their tanks and armored cars.
"But the spiritual machine which has been mutilating us, restoring our customs, and our independent life, is not easy to discern... And it has become so familiar, how are we to recognise it? We cannot perhaps. But we can do something else. We can replace it. We can fill our minds with Gaelic ideas, and our lives with Gaelic customs, until there is no room for any other."... The biggest task will be the restoration of the language. How can we express our most subtle thoughts and finest feelings in a foreign tongue? Irish will scarcely be our language in this generation, not even perhaps in the next. But until we have it again on our tongues and in our minds we are not free, and we will produce no immortal literature.
"Our poets and artists will be inspired in the stimulating air of freedom to be something more than the mere producers of verse and the painters of pictures. They will teach us, by their vision, the noble race we may become. They will inspire us to live as Irish men and women should.... Our civilisation will be glorious or the reverse, according to the character of the people. And the work we produce will be the expression of what we are. Our external life has become the expression of all that we are deprived of - something shapeless, ugly, without native life.... Irish art and Irish customs must be carried out by the people themselves, helped by a central government, not controlled and managed by it, helped by departments of music, art, national painting etc., with local centres connected with them."