Kidney's perceived Munster bias - real or fake?

padser

With one extremely sucessful year under his belt Kidney can justifiably be pleased with the progress he has made with the Irish team. Few can now argue that he was not the right appointment. There is however one aspect of his selections that is beginning to generate contraversy - there appears to be a consistent bias in favour of Munster players when he selects teams.

You can't argue with the results, and it could be argued he is simply going to with who he knows - but the bottom line is that players who play for Munster (and even some who bench for Munster) seem to have a better chance of pulling on a green jersey than those who don't.

I have put together a few examples (I'm sure there are more- would be interested in examples where Munster players have lost out - but can't really think of any - Earls in 6N 08 is the most obvious, but he was injured) - interested to hear what people think

1) Leamy over SOB, Henry, McLaughlin (Autumn internationals 09)
2) Flannery over Best (6N 2008)
3) Earls over Darcy (Autumn internationals 09)
4) DOC over cullen (consistent)
5) Stringer over Boss (Autumn internationals 09)
6) MOD over Cullen, Casey, Caldwell (6N 2008)
7) O Gara over Sexton (Autumn internatinoals 2009)
8) Leamy over Jennings (6N 2008)

I'm not attempting to start a debate on the relative merits of each decision - most of them (with the exception mayby of 1 and 6) are in the eyes of most relatively unbiased obervers 50 50 or at most 60 40 calls - and perfectly reasonable when taken in isolation. However when you look over all the squads and teams he has chosen - a definite pattern has emerged.

redved

I honestly cannot see a problem with any of the decisions made above, including Sexton. Some of the Leinster players in your selections weren't even guaranteed games with Leinster last season.

murphym7

I thought about not replying to this but I'll give you my opinion anyway.

1) Leamy over SOB, Henry, McLaughlin (Autumn internationals 09) I'll give you that one
2) Flannery over Best (6N 2008) Flannery was IMO the best chioce
3) Earls over Darcy (Autumn internationals 09) Earls was not picked over Darcy - Wallace was.
4) DOC over cullen (consistent) In the whole I think the POC/DOC team works well.
5) Stringer over Boss (Autumn internationals 09) Stringer brings more to the table - definetly.
6) MOD over Cullen, Casey, Caldwell (6N 2008) You are dead right there
7) O Gara over Sexton (Autumn internatinoals 2009) Oh no not again, went with experinence and it worked - hard to porve, but it did.
8) Leamy over Jennings (6N 2008) Leamy in the 6N 08 was playing better rugby, no this year or last BTW.

Depp

padser wrote: »

With one extremely sucessful year under his belt Kidney can justifiably be pleased with the progress he has made with the Irish team. Few can now argue that he was not the right appointment. There is however one aspect of his selections that is beginning to generate contraversy - there appears to be a consistent bias in favour of Munster players when he selects teams.

Few can argue with the results, and it could be argued he is simply going to with who he knows - but the bottom line is that players who play for Munster (and even some who bench for Munster) seem to have a better chance of pulling on a green jersey than those who don't.

I have put together a few examples (I'm sure there are more- would be interested in examples where Munster players have lost out - but can't really think of any - Earls in 6N 08 is the most obvious, but he was injured) - interested to hear what people think

1) Leamy over SOB, Henry, McLaughlin (Autumn internationals 09)
2) Flannery over Best (6N 2008)
3) Earls over Darcy (Autumn internationals 09)
4) DOC over cullen (consistent)
5) Stringer over Boss (Autumn internationals 09)
6) MOD over Cullen, Casey, Caldwell (6N 2008)
7) O Gara over Sexton (Autumn internatinoals 2009)
8) Leamy over Jennings (6N 2008)

I'm not attempting to start a debate on the relative merits of each decision - most of them (with the exception mayby of 1 and 6) are in the eyes of most relatively unbiased obervers 50 50 or at most 60 40 calls - and perfectly reasonable when taken in isolation. However when you look over all the squads and teams he has chosen - a definite pattern has emerged.

Kidney picks the better players. And dont dare complain about Earls' inclusion, he hardly played himself in for a lions spot or anything, imagine that, very poor selection, picking a player who plays so well he gets picked for the lions, terrible decision making...im not saying darcy isnt good, quite the opposite, i cant give enough plaudits to the fella(bein from wexford). but Earls selection was justified.

PhatPiggins

I think Kidney, as most decent coach's do, picks on form and experience.

It goes both ways, D'Arcy would never have gotten back in except for past reputations(he completely justified his selection btw) and he pretty much saved Jonathon Sexton's career in Ireland when he brought him into the Irealnd A setup.

I think this thread is going to end badly.

padser

Hmm - maybe I have not made myself completely clear.

I don't have a problem with the individual selections (I wouldn't agree with 1 and 6 myself but no major issues with even them as individual decisions). For example - I would have picked earls over darcy for the bench against Australia and I think DOC is a better player than Cullen etc.

What I am saying is that - when you look over all the teams and squads that Kidney has selected over the last 1 year - every 50 50 decision between players has been in favour of the Munster player, which suggests that there is some bias.

SomeFool

Yawn!
There might be merit in this if we were playing poorly but I don't think anybody can say Kidney is doing a bad job. Have a look at the Fiji team, fellas are getting opportunitys, do you think EOS would would have made a selection like that. I'm sure the team that finishes the 6n in 2010 will be different to the gs winning team of 09, and by the world cup it will be different again. The only one I'd agree with you on is MOD, but I think thats a selection inheriterd from EOS and has changed this year.

Tim Robbins

Before this thread gets locked there's a few things Kidney has done which I haven't liked:

1. On the Grand Slam civic reception when BOD as captain was called out to hold up the trophy, Kidney asked for the other "leaders" to be also called out.

That demeaned BOD's role as captain.

2. In an interview after the Oz match when asked about how good Healy was, he answered saying he'd like to have Horan back.

Kidney got a bit of luck EOS never got. I'm not convinced he's much better as a manager. EOS won a few tests when we were rank underdogs. Kidney went further winning a grand slam but arguably had a better squad and got better luck.

He was also a disaster at Leinster the worst manager for Leinster in the professional era arguably.

SomeFool

Tim Robbins wrote: »

1. On the Grand Slam civic reception when BOD as captain was called out to hold up the trophy, Kidney asked for the other "leaders" to be also called out.

Maybe he just wanted to acknowelege the work done by others in the team, I'm sure BOD had no problem with this. Team effort!!

2. In an interview after the Oz match when asked about how good Healy was, he answered saying he'd like to have Horan back.

It's never been his style to heap praise on one individual, particularly a young one, I'd say he'll keep Healy grounded and he'll be a better player for it.


He was also a disaster at Leinster the worst manager for Leinster in the professional era arguably.

Can't argue with that, Leinster at that time would have been a tough prospect for any coach though.

PhatPiggins

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Before this thread gets locked there's a few things Kidney has done which I haven't liked:

1. On the Grand Slam civic reception when BOD as captain was called out to hold up the trophy, Kidney asked for the other "leaders" to be also called out.

That demeaned BOD's role as captain.

2. In an interview after the Oz match when asked about how good Healy was, he answered saying he'd like to have Horan back.

Kidney got a bit of luck EOS never got. I'm not convinced he's much better as a manager. EOS won a few tests when we were rank underdogs. Kidney went further winning a grand slam but arguably had a better squad and got better luck.

He was also a disaster at Leinster the worst manager for Leinster in the professional era arguably.

Head in hands.

I'd hate to think what you'd be writing if Ireland were struggling.

Otacon

Regarding the percieved Munster-bias, I believe Kidney does pick players he knows. While this has work until now, selections like the one made for the Fiji game give me hope that he is trying to get to know the rest of the Irish squad.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

1. On the Grand Slam civic reception when BOD as captain was called out to hold up the trophy, Kidney asked for the other "leaders" to be also called out.

That demeaned BOD's role as captain.

I do not agree here. Its the Irish team, not BOD and the gang. I actually believe that if Kidney hadn't said it first, BOD would have called on them.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

2. In an interview after the Oz match when asked about how good Healy was, he answered saying he'd like to have Horan back.

Can you post a link to this? I didn't see that.

bamboozle

1) Leamy over SOB, Henry, McLaughlin (Autumn internationals 09) Leamy really has to take this opportunity cause there are plenty of upcoming backrowers chomping at the bit, his form (not helped by injuries) over last 15 months has been poor.
2) Flannery over Best (6N 2008)
3) Earls over Darcy (Autumn internationals 09) no harm giving Earls a chance, personally i dont see Earls being a regular international ever
4) DOC over cullen (consistent) DOC & POC partnership well proven, if anything DOC has been better than POC this season, albeit with more game time.
5) Stringer over Boss (Autumn internationals 09) Agree, with world cup in mind i'd have jetissoned Stringer.
6) MOD over Cullen, Casey, Caldwell (6N 2008) Never could fathom DK's selections of MOD,
7) O Gara over Sexton (Autumn internatinoals 2009) Sexton's time will come, happy for ROG to keep the jersey for now.
8) Leamy over Jennings (6N 2008)

THe selections that have annoyed me have been Buckley as he is just not good enough. Also selection of Hurley ahead of Fionn Carr is comical.

To be fair to Kidney Leinster were unbeaten in HC Group stage under him,

padser

bamboozle wrote: »

THe selections that have annoyed me have been Buckley as he is just not good enough. Also selection of Hurley ahead of Fionn Carr is comical.

Fair point - I had completely missed those.

What I would really like - is for someone to point out a couple of selections where there has been a call to make, and DK has picked someone ahead of a Munster player.

I really think you will struggle, and I do think this says something.

Chucky the tree

The leamy and Earls selections have more to cover with the players being able to cover multiple positions which will always a big importance when picking subs in the mordern game. The only ones i'd argue with are MOD and ROG vs Sexton.

anonymous_joe

SomeFool wrote: »

Can't argue with that, Leinster at that time would have been a tough prospect for any coach though.

Yeah, one like Michael Cheika.

I'm going to have a stab at this, and I don't want this to earn into (the inevitable) provincial pissing contest.

Declan Kidney has coached both Leinster and Munster. Very few people remember his tenure at Leinster. Or at least very few bring it up. What's undeniable though, is that he's familiar with a lot of the Leinster players. He's coached guys like Shane Jennings, D'Arcy, O'Driscoll, Cullen, etc. Most of the older lads.

His tenure at Leinster was poor. Very poor. Moreover, the way he left was certainly not ideal. He was more than happy to walk away from us, as he did to the Dragons too iirc.

His Munster tenure was an unrivalled success. However, given the growing strength of that team, what then appeared a marvellous result in retrospect looks inevitable. The likes of Wallace, O'Connell, Hayes, Horan, O'Gara and so on were becoming a magnificent team with hardened members. I could have won a fcuking Heineken Cup with that lot.

But that's me being a bit silly. He's undoubtedly a fantastic coach. In my mind, he's the second best Irish coach ever, after Eddie O'Sullivan. (By Irish I mean nationality, not 'coach thereof')

Two Heineken Cups and a Grand Slam isn't exactly bad.

There is though some inevitable myth-making. I'm a massive Manchester United fan, and I'm fairly sure Fergie's the best modern manager in terms of achievements. I'd also reckon Mourinho's a better coach, Wenger's as good as Fergie, and so on. History is written by and for the winners. In ten years time, France will have beaten Ireland. No-one will remember the cheating. (Outside of Ireland.)

The Grand Slam in particular represents the apex of myth-making - the best Irish team I've ever seen was the 2007 vintage. That Clerc try was tragic, truly tragic. I was inconsolable afterwards, and my unfortunate then-girlfriend had to spend the next few days cheering me up. I knew we'd deserved that Grand Slam, but it wasn't to be.

Had Stephen Jones knocked over his penalty last spring, would we be as happy? This time last year, taking stock after the Autumn Internationals with one of my mates, neither of us was especially happy. We were not at all displeased though. What we'd seen was a much tighter, less creative, less fluid but nastier, tougher and Leicester/Munster-ish side. Given the relative paucity of our rivals, other than Wales, we thought the 6 Nations could be ours. Inded, my feelings back then were that we would finish firrst or second and that there'd be no Grand Slam.

The Grand Slam was great, utterly fantastic, but certainly not flawless. What is? There are plenty of holes in any team. I was saying all through the Lions tour that South Africa were shíte and someone would find them out. Shíte in relative terms obviously. I still think they're better than us maybe six times out of ten.

When it comes to this current Ireland team, we've a coach whose spent the only truly compettive coaching role he's had at Munster. Those players have carried him and themselves far. Often, through heroics of Herculean/Achillean/insert your Hellenic hero of choice here proportions. However, that was often enough because they'd fcuked up games they shouldn't have previously.

When it comes to picking players, I know that Kidney is no fool. He's a professional coach. He knows what a rugby player is and what they do. And into that equation comes his own personal experience - O'Gara's never let Kidney down. Neither has Leamy. Neither has Horan.

Munster fans of a certain vintage will often bring up the perceived/real bias against them 'back in the day.' This existed mainly because of coaches coming from oop North or Dublin, and thus ignoring Munster players in favour of similarly talented players with whom they worked or had worked on a day to day basis. I have no doubts in my mind that Shane Jennings is the most effective openside in Ireland. I did not say talented, I said effective. I don't think that he's so much better for Kidney to drop Wallace though, with whom he worked for so many years. An English, Saffer, Wallaby or New Zealander probably would though. A coach from outside of Munster would not have said he wanted Horan back.

In any 50/50 call, you will inevitably pick the player you like most. That's not the reason you say you do it, it's subjective. I think Paddy Wallace and Gordon D'Arcy are both very very good. I still know who I want to start for Ireland though.

Kidney is not biased in any deliberate way. He's a bloody good coach, and that's it. He has his own biases, his own flaws, just as much as he is possessed of positive traits. I know he knows far far more than I ever will about rugby. I'm not ever going to try and suggest I know more, but I'm capable of realising that he's still only human.

Not one of Kidney's selections has been a mistake. Nothing bad has happened. However, that does not mean they are the best possible decision that can be made.

As it is, while Ireland are doing well, I'm not going to demand Kidney's head. I'll happily question any decision I disagree with, but always on the assumption that he knows what he's doing.

thehighground

padser wrote: »

Hmm - maybe I have not made myself completely clear.

I don't have a problem with the individual selections (I wouldn't agree with 1 and 6 myself but no major issues with even them as individual decisions). For example - I would have picked earls over darcy for the bench against Australia and I think DOC is a better player than Cullen etc.

What I am saying is that - when you look over all the teams and squads that Kidney has selected over the last 1 year - every 50 50 decision between players has been in favour of the Munster player, which suggests that there is some bias.

A 50:50 decision to you though, is probably not a 50:50 decision to Kidney & his coaching staff. Bear in mind he knows all these players very well - i.e., he stuck with O'Leary/Stringer in Munster and didn't attempt to bring back Reddan from Wasps. If he rated Reddan more than O'Leary, he would have got Reddan back.

My stab at your comments:

1) Leamy over SOB, Henry, McLaughlin (Autumn internationals 09). Leamy is the bench option - he can play all positions in the back row, fits neatly into the system, and is a good age with lots of experience. For example, he had a great game against Wales when he came on for Ferris very early on. SOB, Henry, McLaughlin will have to do a bit more at provincial level. And Leamy needs game time as he will be benching for the SA game.

2) Flannery over Best (6N 2009). Best was off form for 6Ns (probably nigly injury).

3) Earls over Darcy (Autumn internationals 09) - Bench spot - Earls covers more positions.

4) DOC over cullen (consistent). Gert Smal rates DOC very highly and he won't want to break up the POC & DOC partnership.

5) Stringer over Boss (Autumn internationals 09). Probably wanted to see how Humphreys did without Boss and be one of the experienced heads (along with Shaggy on the pitch). And Stringer is different to all the available SHs - it won't be a Stringer v. Boss - it will be O'Leary v Boss or Reddan v. Boss.

6) MOD over Cullen, Casey, Caldwell (6N 2008). Cullen injured. Casey missed training caps in Autumn because he couldn't get released from his club. Caldwell is a penalty machine. MOD - used to playing with both POC & DOC as well as captaining Munster in POC's absence

7) O Gara over Sexton (Autumn internatinoals 2009). Suffice to say that Kidney has shown more faith in Sexton than anyone else. Anyway, Sexton is starting against Fiji and O'Gara isn't even on the bench so it seems Kidney backing Sexton all the way.

8) Leamy over Jennings (6N 2008). Jennings didn't up his game until after the 6Ns and of course now he is suspended. Wouldn't it be Wallace or Jennings anyway?

anonymous_joe

Otacon wrote: »

I do not agree here. Its the Irish team, not BOD and the gang. I actually believe that if Kidney hadn't said it first, BOD would have called on them.

Some would argue that such a move has a different meaning. The captain demanding his fellow leaders take places of pride is very different than the coach insisting upon it. It sends out different messages.

padser

Chucky the tree wrote: »

The leamy and Earls selections have more to cover with the players being able to cover multiple positions which will always a big importance when picking subs in the mordern game. The only ones i'd argue with are MOD and ROG vs Sexton.

On a somewhat unrelated note, people saying earls covers more positions than Darcy (which I assume is what you mean) always bugs me.

1)
Darcy has played (and at international level and provincial level) at wing, inside centre, outside centre and full back.

Earls has played (at international level) wing, outside centre and full back

Therefore Darcy covers more positions than Earls

2) If you were to argue that Earls is more of a 'full back' now than Darcy I might agree, but its a moot point. Neither would be the back up full back if chosen on the bench for the Australia game (Bowe would be first cover, and probably Fitz second cover)

Chucky the tree

padser wrote: »

On a somewhat unrelated note, people saying earls covers more positions than Darcy (which I assume is what you mean) always bugs me.

1)
Darcy has played (and at international level and provincial level) at wing, inside centre, outside centre and full back.

Earls has played (at international level) wing, outside centre and full back

Therefore Darcy covers more positions than Earls

2) If you were to argue that Earls is more of a 'full back' now than Darcy I might agree, but its a moot point. Neither would be the back up full back if chosen on the bench for the Australia game (Bowe would be first cover, and probably Fitz second cover)

When was the last time Darcy played full back or left wing in a international match? I'd say it's been a long time. For the squad against AI I think picking Earls was better and when you got through the injury scenarios the combinations I went through always looked better with Earls on the bench then D'arcy.

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

A 50:50 decision to you though, is probably not a 50:50 decision to Kidney & his coaching staff. Bear in mind he knows all these players very well - i.e., he stuck with O'Leary/Stringer in Munster and didn't attempt to bring back Reddan from Wasps. If he rated Reddan more than O'Leary, he would have got Reddan back.

I really agree with that.

Though they might sometimes make the odd mistake.

My stab at your comments:

1) Leamy over SOB, Henry, McLaughlin (Autumn internationals 09). Leamy is the bench option - he can play all positions in the back row, fits neatly into the system, and is a good age with lots of experience. For example, he had a great game against Wales when he came on for Ferris very early on. SOB, Henry, McLaughlin will have to do a bit more at provincial level. And Leamy needs game time as he will be benching for the SA game.

This is the big one for me at the moment. Leamy's talented, no-one doubts that. I've seen him play well maybe twice in the last year though? And I do watch at least half of Munster's games and I've been known to watch the odd Ireland game. Certainly of Irish flankers domestically, he's fairly far down the list in terms of form.

2) Flannery over Best (6N 2009). Best was off form for 6Ns (probably nigly injury).

And Flannery plays with Hayes and Horan every week.

3) Earls over Darcy (Autumn internationals 09) - Bench spot - Earls covers more positions.

True, although D'Arcy can cover both centre positions to a much higher standard than Earls, and started life as a winger at the pro level. And Earls is a muck full-back.

I'd have this one down to youth though.

4) DOC over cullen (consistent). Gert Smal rates DOC very highly and he won't want to break up the POC & DOC partnership.

Paul O'Connell's like Steve Borthwick - undroppable. Thankfully he's not shíte.

He knows DOC really well, so Cullen and Casey who are no less talented than DOC imo are never going to get in. Ever.

5) Stringer over Boss (Autumn internationals 09). Probably wanted to see how Humphreys did without Boss and be one of the experienced heads (along with Shaggy on the pitch). And Stringer is different to all the available SHs - it won't be a Stringer v. Boss - it will be O'Leary v Boss or Reddan v. Boss.

Reddan Boss and O'Leary all play similarly. All are better than Stringer, but he does offer variety.

6) MOD over Cullen, Casey, Caldwell (6N 2008). Cullen injured. Casey missed training caps in Autumn because he couldn't get released from his club. Caldwell is a penalty machine. MOD - used to playing with both POC & DOC as well as captaining Munster in POC's absence

This is one I'd have put down to bias. If Mick O'Driscoll fcuked off back to France and made another stab at being first choice I could justify it, but picking a second-stringer ahead of more talented first-choice players (captains of Leinster and Liarish no less) is madness.

7) O Gara over Sexton (Autumn internatinoals 2009). Suffice to say that Kidney has shown more faith in Sexton than anyone else. Anyway, Sexton is starting against Fiji and O'Gara isn't even on the bench so it seems Kidney backing Sexton all the way.

Experience over form and talent for sure. I'd disagree with this call, but I fully understand it. Also helps that he's been picking O'Gara for Munster for donkeys years.

8) Leamy over Jennings (6N 2008). Jennings didn't up his game until after the 6Ns and of course now he is suspended. Wouldn't it be Wallace or Jennings anyway?

Even ignoring form, Jennings is a better openside than anyone else we have. Wallace is far and away our most talented back-row forward, but he's not the best in any back-row position. I'd have him on the bench myself, but only because we already have two decent ball carriers. We desperately need a ball winner, and I don't think Kidney appreciated quite how much until very recently. The international trend has been going that way for a good while now, even South Africa are picking one now, so I reckon we may finally see an openside for Ireland in the near future.

DOC09UNAM

funny thing is this is most likely a bunch of leinster people biased towards the leinster folks, making biased anyway, obviously failing to realise the munster team gel better with each other when they're kept together

thehighground

padser - we probably should add in that while D'Arcy may have played all those positions at international level - he isn't on form at the moment.

Kidney said the Wallace/D'Arcy selection was very tough, and what a class act D'Arcy is as a player and a person.

Note the similar pattern in his comments re Healy/Horan.

padser

Chucky the tree wrote: »

When was the last time Darcy played full back or left wing in a international match?

A while, and I accept that he wouldn't be first choice cover for either of those positions (i.e. the team would be changed around if say Kearney got injured - it wouldn't be a straight swap).

However he be realistically covering one wing, and both centre positions (thats 3 positions), earls is covering two wings and outside centre (thats 3 positions)

I still don't see how Earls is covering more positions?

padser

Yeah - look like i said in a previous post, I actually would have played Earls ahead of Darcy, I don't disagree with it (It just irritates me when people say its because Earls covers more positions which I don't think is true, I do agree Darcy is not on form). TBH my point is not about any of the decisions anyway - its more the pattern.

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

funny thing is this is most likely a bunch of leinster people biased towards the leinster folks, making biased anyway, obviously failing to realise the munster team gel better with each other when they're kept together

I completely accept that I probably have a bias towards Leinster folk, people are biased towards certain teams. In this case its DK biased towards Munster.

By your logic we should just play the entire Munster team then, why bother having an Irish team at all? (If you are short a winger we could supply you with Fitz maybe - or would Dowling help the rest of the team 'gel' better????) Come on mate - you know thats a weak argument?

nosco

padser wrote: »

On a somewhat unrelated note, people saying earls covers more positions than Darcy (which I assume is what you mean) always bugs me.

1)
Darcy has played (and at international level and provincial level) at wing, inside centre, outside centre and full back.

Earls has played (at international level) wing, outside centre and full back

Therefore Darcy covers more positions than Earls

2) If you were to argue that Earls is more of a 'full back' now than Darcy I might agree, but its a moot point. Neither would be the back up full back if chosen on the bench for the Australia game (Bowe would be first cover, and probably Fitz second cover)

So why would anyone have darcy on the bench? You have one spot left after covering the half backs right? You mention full back not being a priority with fitz and bowe(wouldn't fancy him at 15 myself but anyway) in the side. fair enough. But same goes for centre with the same two people. So, wing is where we need cover. Who do you pick so? Easy decision.

Valid argument to bring up kidney's munster bias, but there's no point in bending certain selections just to add weight to it.

Chucky the tree

padser wrote: »

A while, and I accept that he wouldn't be first choice cover for either of those positions (i.e. the team would be changed around if say Kearney got injured - it wouldn't be a straight swap).

However he be realistically covering one wing, and both centre positions (thats 3 positions), earls is covering two wings and outside centre (thats 3 positions)

I still don't see how Earls is covering more positions?

Earls can cover more position with a lesser drop off in overall team standard is what I should have said.

buck65

The 6 nations last year might have had alot of Munster players but weren't they Euro champs at the time?
I would expect the reverse this season with 2/3 more Leinster players starting.

Just on the Kidney Leinster tenure, were the feelings not mutual? In so far as Kidney felt that he had little influence there and found the players did things their own way? I always had this conception from articles I've read.

Kidney seems to have learned alot and can deal with the blending of the players better, maybe Rob Kearney's fault!

I would say that Horan especially, O Gara and Leamy will come under pressure for their places this spring with 3 Leinster guys breathing down their necks.

buck65

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Earls can cover more position with a lesser drop off in overall team standard is what I should have said.

I saw D'arcy give a masterclass at fullback years ago, can't remember who Leinster were playing though, had he blond hair for a while?

Ciaran-Irl

I don't think there is much of a bias, if there is any. The only two that stand out to me are MOD being picked at all for anything last year, and Buckley being ahead of Mike Ross in this weekend's team. Buckley shouldn't even be ahead of Ronan McCormack (!) on current scrummaging form.

Amazotheamazing

bamboozle wrote: »

3) Earls over Darcy (Autumn internationals 09) no harm giving Earls a chance, personally i dont see Earls being a regular international ever

Seriously? He's a Lion at 21 years of age and you don't think he'll be a regular international? Why?

anonymous_joe

buck65 wrote: »

The 6 nations last year might have had alot of Munster players but weren't they Euro champs at the time?
I would expect the reverse this season with 2/3 more Leinster players starting.

Just on the Kidney Leinster tenure, were the feelings not mutual? In so far as Kidney felt that he had little influence there and found the players did things their own way? I always had this conception from articles I've read.

Kidney seems to have learned alot and can deal with the blending of the players better, maybe Rob Kearney's fault!

I would say that Horan especially, O Gara and Leamy will come under pressure for their places this spring with 3 Leinster guys breathing down their necks.

There's two sides to every story. None of the Leinster fans here myself included are going to condemn our team if we can avoid it. :pac:

And comparing to Gatland, the Gatland of Wales and of Ireland are two very different beasts. Coaches do learn a lot after all. Good post.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Seriously? He's a Lion at 21 years of age and you don't think he'll be a regular international? Why?

If he doesn't get a regular position he's going to be the next Paddy Wallace. It's taken Wallace years to justify his talent, all because he got fcuked over and turned into a utility back. Very few people can excel as utility players.

Amazotheamazing

anonymous_joe wrote: »

If he doesn't get a regular position he's going to be the next Paddy Wallace. It's taken Wallace years to justify his talent, all because he got fcuked over and turned into a utility back. Very few people can excel as utility players.

He'll almost certainly take Fitz's place in the six nations. I'd rather see him at 13 for Munster, but fitz's injury means he will stay as a wing for now.

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

He'll almost certainly take Fitz's place in the six nations. I'd rather see him at 13 for Munster, but fitz's injury means he will stay as a wing for now.

I don't care where he plays so long as he gets the chance to make something his own.

Attacking wise he could replace O'Driscoll at 13, not sure defensively, but the defense will never come unless people actually give him one place to play and learn.

Amazotheamazing

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I don't care where he plays so long as he gets the chance to make something his own.

Attacking wise he could replace O'Driscoll at 13, not sure defensively, but the defense will never come unless people actually give him one place to play and learn.

It's a myth that he's weak defensively, imo. He used to be, but not anymore.

PhatPiggins

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

He'll almost certainly take Fitz's place in the six nations. I'd rather see him at 13 for Munster, but fitz's injury means he will stay as a wing for now.

I fancy Horgan to start against the Boks

Amazotheamazing

PhatPiggins wrote: »

I fancy Horgan to start against the Boks

I said the six nations, Earls is only playing as a winger fulltime for a few months, I wouldn't be surprised if Kidney went with the more experienced Horgan against SA. By Feb though, after the intervening training camps and games, Earls will be ahead of Horgan, imo.

padser

PhatPiggins wrote: »

I fancy Horgan to start against the Boks

I don't - if he does I will come back to this thread and mention that Kidney has made his first choice of a non munster player over a munster player.

I really hope I don't have to do that though - I would love to see Earls break into the team.

bamboozle

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Seriously? He's a Lion at 21 years of age and you don't think he'll be a regular international? Why?

well sorry for having an opinion! firstly he's not a Lion he was a Lion's Tourist, he didnt get any caps, his Lions tour was a mixed bag, some bits good some bits very average. To be honest i think he's a decent player but will suffer due to his versatility, he'll never get a look in at full back for Ireland cause Kearney has that position sewn up, behind him you'd have Luke Fitz and then there's Conway who'll be on the scene in 2 years. He wont make center at international level as he's not getting experience there at province and as we currently have D'arcy, BOD, Wallace, down the line i'd see Cave, Bowe, Macken, McFadden step up to replace BOD, D'arcy when they retire, plus i think he'd be too light for center. So that'd leave wing, he's currently not better than Fitz or Bowe or Horgan, give it a few years and we'll have Conway & Michael Keating on the scene. Maybe he'll get his game on the wing but i just think he's been overhyped.
I just think he's getting the kind of press which Trimble got a few years back, great things were expected but limitations are cruely exposed the higher the level you play.

OldJay

padser wrote: »

there appears to be a consistent bias in favour of Munster players when he selects teams

There isn't.
He wants the best players for the best possible team in order to win games and is building a good solid squad at the moment.

eroo

Fake.

Enough said.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I really agree with that

.

Just to clarify - Kidney knows most the internationals, not just Munster players as he has coached most of them all the way up from under-age to being Assistant Manager to EOS, to being Leinster coach.

This is the big one for me at the moment. Leamy's talented, no-one doubts that. I've seen him play well maybe twice in the last year though? And I do watch at least half of Munster's games and I've been known to watch the odd Ireland game. Certainly of Irish flankers domestically, he's fairly far down the list in terms of form.

Don't agree with you about Leamy being very far down in the pecking order. Neil Best was anonymous for Northampton when playing Munster. Leamy had quite a good game. And in the Munster v. Ulster game he would have been up for MOTM. Ferris was very quite in that game. And don't forget, he had a great game against Wales in the 6Ns.

Paul O'Connell's like Steve Borthwick - undroppable. Thankfully he's not shíte.

I think you will find POC is undroppable because he is the best Lock we've got.

He knows DOC really well, so Cullen and Casey who are no less talented than DOC imo are never going to get in. Ever.

Its irrelevant how talented they are if they don't work well together as a team. By the way, isn't Cullen playing with POC this weekend. The problem with Casey is that he isn't up to international standard and the fact that his Club will not want to release him for a 2 month pre-season/RWC camp next Semptember.

Reddan Boss and O'Leary all play similarly. All are better than Stringer, but he does offer variety.

Yes, Stringer was MOTM I think against Scotland for the GS.

This is one I'd have put down to bias. If Mick O'Driscoll fcuked off back to France and made another stab at being first choice I could justify it, but picking a second-stringer ahead of more talented first-choice players (captains of Leinster and Liarish no less) is madness.

How many times has it to be repeated:

Autumn international this time last year: Mal was the bench option.
6Ns - Mal got himself dropped for being late and MOD was brought in as CULLEN WAS INJURED. Cullen is now the bench option. (Also should be noted that Casey was only released for a week (instead of 2 last autumn) from his club.

Even ignoring form, Jennings is a better openside than anyone else we have.

Your Off topic here - Kidney can't pick Jennings because he is unavailable, so how can he be showing bias towards Munster players?

Colm_OReilly

Interesting to note in some of the Munster rugby books like "Stand Up and Fight" and Axel's bio how the Munster mentality grew out of a chip on the shoulder that Munster players were always overlooked in favour of Leinster players for International duty.

That's not meant to be inflammatory in any way, just pointing out how the tides have turned.

As for Fr. Declan, he is human after all, and not free from bias (no one is). I would say that in 50/50 calls he'll nearly always pick people he knows.

To add a retort, he has picked BOD over POC to be captain, despite Paulie being the Munster/Lions captain.

Risteard

the fact is that no matter what team a coach picks, there'll always be someone who's not happy with it.

Kidney doesn't make selection decisions on his own. I think that he takes the advice of his respective coaches very seriously when making selection decisions.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I don't care where he [Earls] plays so long as he gets the chance to make something his own.

Attacking wise he could replace O'Driscoll at 13, not sure defensively, but the defense will never come unless people actually give him one place to play and learn.

Whats the big rush - Earls is only 21. At the moment in Munster he is learning his trade in a few positions. When Mafi came to Munster he played a lot on the wing/bench until he earned his starting place in the centre (at the age of 24/25). De Villiers & Howlett will not be around for ever (probably will return home next year). Its not as if Earls has to wait for BOD/D'Arcy to retire before settling for one position.

Amazotheamazing

bamboozle wrote: »

well sorry for having an opinion! firstly he's not a Lion he was a Lion's Tourist, he didnt get any caps, his Lions tour was a mixed bag, some bits good some bits very average. To be honest i think he's a decent player but will suffer due to his versatility, he'll never get a look in at full back for Ireland cause Kearney has that position sewn up, behind him you'd have Luke Fitz and then there's Conway who'll be on the scene in 2 years. He wont make center at international level as he's not getting experience there at province and as we currently have D'arcy, BOD, Wallace, down the line i'd see Cave, Bowe, Macken, McFadden step up to replace BOD, D'arcy when they retire, plus i think he'd be too light for center. So that'd leave wing, he's currently not better than Fitz or Bowe or Horgan, give it a few years and we'll have Conway & Michael Keating on the scene. Maybe he'll get his game on the wing but i just think he's been overhyped.
I just think he's getting the kind of press which Trimble got a few years back, great things were expected but limitations are cruely exposed the higher the level you play.

He's about a decade younger than Horgan and a better centre than anyone outside of the three currently in the mix for Ireland (Wallace, D'Arcy and BOD).

While he's getting a lot of the same sort of press as Trimble, he's a far more skillful player. Trimble was always a physically powerful player who was low on skills, Earls is a massively skillful player who needed to add physicality to his game. Trimble (and I like the guy) was let down by the system, he was brought to high a level too soon when his game wasn't really good enough, his killing was poor, his passing was poor, his defence was poor. Earls is in a different scenario, he's a far more skillful player who's also improved on his weaknesses at provincial level first (kicking and defensively mostly).

Another point is not everyone you mentioned can get games with their province. Leinster can't play Conway, Fitz, Macken, O'Malley, the Kearney's, Keating, McFadden in every game, some of those players will stall due to a lack of gametime (indeed, Mcfadden is sorta stalling now, playing AIL most weekends), Earls will be playing week-in, week out for Munster barring injury or rest.

Anyhow, I really think Earls has it in him to be a better player than either Trimble or Fitz, both players I also rate highly. I don't say that lightly, I think he's a once in a generation type player.

padser

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

. Trimble (and I like the guy) was let down by the system, he was brought to high a level too soon when his game wasn't really good enough, his killing was poor, his passing was poor, his defence was poor.

Trimbles defence was not poor. It was pretty awesome actually.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

.
Anyhow, I really think Earls has it in him to be a better player than either Trimble or Fitz, both players I also rate highly. I don't say that lightly, I think he's a once in a generation type player.

I really hope you are right. I don't think so though. His defence is just too weak - once in a generation players have to be really excellent at both attacking and defending (since your team doesn't have the ball 50% of the time)

Also, we just had our once in a generation player......

Amazotheamazing

padser wrote: »

Trimbles defence was not poor. It was pretty awesome actually.

Ah come on, you could never describe Trimble's defence as awesome, always went too high.

PhatPiggins

padser wrote: »

Trimbles defence was not poor. It was pretty awesome actually.




I really hope you are right. I don't think so though. His defence is just too weak - once in a generation players have to be really excellent at both attacking and defending (since your team doesn't have the ball 50% of the time)

Also, we just had our once in a generation player......

Did BOD just retire??

Earls and BOD are from different generations in rugby genealogy. I think Earls could be really special but as already mentioned on thread he needs to play one position

bamboozle

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

He's about a decade younger than Horgan and a better centre than anyone outside of the three currently in the mix for Ireland (Wallace, D'Arcy and BOD).

While he's getting a lot of the same sort of press as Trimble, he's a far more skillful player. Trimble was always a physically powerful player who was low on skills, Earls is a massively skillful player who needed to add physicality to his game. Trimble (and I like the guy) was let down by the system, he was brought to high a level too soon when his game wasn't really good enough, his killing was poor, his passing was poor, his defence was poor. Earls is in a different scenario, he's a far more skillful player who's also improved on his weaknesses at provincial level first (kicking and defensively mostly).

Another point is not everyone you mentioned can get games with their province. Leinster can't play Conway, Fitz, Macken, O'Malley, the Kearney's, Keating, McFadden in every game, some of those players will stall due to a lack of gametime (indeed, Mcfadden is sorta stalling now, playing AIL most weekends), Earls will be playing week-in, week out for Munster barring injury or rest.

Anyhow, I really think Earls has it in him to be a better player than either Trimble or Fitz, both players I also rate highly. I don't say that lightly, I think he's a once in a generation type player.

as things stand, Bowe is a better 13 than him, and Earls will never be a 12. I just dont think he's got the defence to be an international centre.
Earls is a fast mazy runner, i dont think he is skillful when it comes to passing/kicking/awareness.
i dont think he's physically strong enough to play centre and if he bulks up any more he'll lose speed & agility.
i agree he's better than trimble but Fitz is streets ahead of him.
Agree with you though, Mcfadden would benefit from a season or 2 out west

Chucky the tree

bamboozle wrote: »

as things stand, Bowe is a better 13 than him, and Earls will never be a 12. I just dont think he's got the defence to be an international centre.
Earls is a fast mazy runner, i dont think he is skillful when it comes to passing/kicking/awareness.
i dont think he's physically strong enough to play centre and if he bulks up any more he'll lose speed & agility.
i agree he's better than trimble but Fitz is streets ahead of him.
Agree with you though, Mcfadden would benefit from a season or 2 out west

What? He's just turned 22, he's still very young and has plenty of time to grow and bulk up without looks any speed or agility.

buck65

bamboozle wrote: »

Earls is a fast mazy runner, i dont think he is skillful when it comes to passing/kicking/awareness.
i

Not much wrong with his kicking and awareness here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdkuVKAm15c