eFlow charge when my car was off the road!

jamesozzie

Hi fellow Boardsies!!

Today I recieved a fine from eFlow for "apparantly" going through the m50 on Saturday even though my car was off the road for 2 months and I was not even in county Dublin, in fact I didnt leave Wexford over the while weekend!!

Have any of you experienced this and what do you think I should do? I dont want to waste my time (and money) calling them and to be honest I think il just ignore their letters as I assume its on their part to prove I went through the toll.

Do they have to provide video evidence if it went as far as court? I hope so as my car was not even on the road, nevermind near the m50. What can happen to me should I ignore their letters?

TCP/IP_King

Nothing, after my experiwince with "e-flow" (beteire ??) over the last two weeks, would surprise me.

Paid a toll late : 3+3
2 weeks later get letter saying I owe them 50E
but I have a payment recipt ??
advised by "customer services" to pay fine and request refund
OK - pay fine, query refund
Get a letter for non-payment
Query letter
sorry we'll refund you, as you weren't where we say you were on our toll.
Receive letter to pay fine of 50E for non-payment

And so it goes

Best of luck communicating with PO Box 11302, Dublin 17 as it was fcuk all use to me.

As for eflow.ie - I'd prefer not to even express my revulsion at the level of "customer" dis-service.

In fairness the people at the end of 1890 501050 are doing their best. God help them.

As I say, nothing concocted by a Fianna Fail committee of incompetents would surprise me. Best of luck dealing with BetEire - Dick Whitington doesn't even approach anywhere near them.

Victor

If you are happy it wasn't your vehicle, tell them.

Is there a picture?

westwicklow

I keep getting billed for a vehicle that hasn't been on the public road for over 7 years. It's such a mess!

LookBehindYou

send them an email and ask for proof, and keep copy of same emails for your evidence of their incompetence. Dont pay anything.

westwicklow

LookBehindYou wrote: »

send them an email and ask for proof, and keep copy of same emails for your evidence of their incompetence. Dont pay anything.

Thanks.

But just as I get one problem sorted, another one starts but with the same vehicle registration.

It's like we keep going round and round in loops and loops and loops......

corktina

possibly someone has cloned your registration....

http://mywheels.ie/

check here to see if that is so...

Sponge Bob

Keep it simple .

email info@nra.ie and it will be sorted within a week with an apology

**Timbuk2**

Don't ignore their letters. They'll keep sending them to you, with increased charges each time.

This happened my friend before. He rang up and explained the situation, and they solved the problem at once, saying the system sometimes messes up like that.

jamesozzie

thanks for your replies. The thing is I dont care if they keep sending me letters, it doesnt bother me at all as I know my car wasnt even on the road. I might just leave it running and them them go to the effort of trying to get in contact me me or even sending solicitors letters as im sure the onus is on them to prove it was my car that passed the toll bridge

Ham'nd'egger

jamesozzie wrote: »

thanks for your replies. The thing is I dont care if they keep sending me letters, it doesnt bother me at all as I know my car wasnt even on the road. I might just leave it running and them them go to the effort of trying to get in contact me me or even sending solicitors letters as im sure the onus is on them to prove it was my car that passed the toll bridge

And then one day it ends up in court and all the stress/hassle/cost therein.

If as you say, the car was nowhere close to Dublin for months, contact them with proof of same as you will probably need to dig out this information if it hits the local court. They know that there is errors that occur (Such as a cloned plate as mentioned or a misread from the camera system). For the sake of a stamp and a phone call, you are risking courts and the mercy of a judge who may not be as affable as you would expect.

jamesozzie

But is it not up to them to prove I passed the toll? They would have to provide photographic evidence I assume which would not be possible as my car was in my home

Ham'nd'egger

jamesozzie wrote: »

But is it not up to them to prove I passed the toll? They would have to provide photographic evidence I assume which would not be possible as my car was in my home

All they will have to prove in court is that car reg XYZ 123 passed at such a time on such a day. The onus is on you to counter this claim and prove it wasn't you. This bit you really ought to do now before it gets to court and you need a day off work, a possible legal fee for a solicitor and a fine if your case goes arseway. It's your call but I'd go for the easy option and pick up the phone.

http://www.eflow.ie/news/index.htm

jamesozzie

Hamndegger wrote: »

All they will have to prove in court is that car reg XYZ 123 passed at such a time on such a day. The onus is on you to counter this claim and prove it wasn't you. This bit you really ought to do now before it gets to court and you need a day off work, a possible legal fee for a solicitor and a fine if your case goes arseway. It's your call but I'd go for the easy option and pick up the phone.

http://www.eflow.ie/news/index.htm

Exactly - all "THEY will have to prove". Well thats fine with me as they cant prove it as my car wasn't even in Country Dublin, nevermind the M50.

Ham'nd'egger

jamesozzie wrote: »

Exactly - all "THEY will have to prove". Well thats fine with me as they cant prove it as my car wasn't even in Country Dublin, nevermind the M50.

I guess the fact that all of this happens in a courtroom has escaped you.

GerardKeating

jamesozzie wrote: »

Exactly - all "THEY will have to prove". Well thats fine with me as they cant prove it as my car wasn't even in Country Dublin, nevermind the M50.

Yeah, but there proof will be a photo of the car which cross the bridge, if they produce a photo, the judge might not accept your word that it is a different car...

jamesozzie

And what are the chances of that car being the same make and model of my car and with the same reg?

csd

jamesozzie wrote: »

And what are the chances of that car being the same make and model of my car and with the same reg?

Apparently "cloning" of cars is now quite prevalent across the water. This is where a person of dubious morals scouts about for a car with the same make/model and colour as theirs and makes copies of the reg plate.

It's used to avoid paying the congestion charge in London and to evade payment of road tax. ANPR is ubiquitous over there, so if your car isn't taxed they've a much bigger chance of spotting it out on the roads and sending you a penalty notice.

I wonder if there's been an increase in this happening in Ireland since the M50 toll went freeflow.

/csd

Ham'nd'egger

jamesozzie wrote: »

And what are the chances of that car being the same make and model of my car and with the same reg?

It is YOUR onus to prove it was NOT your car if there is a mistake. If and when it goes to court, it is still YOUR onus to prove it wasn't your car. Eflow simply bill the owner of the car they reckon crossed at that time so until you tell them that there is a mistake then they will not know that this is the case.

jamesozzie

So its not really a case of innocent until proven guilty then. They can accuse me (without evidence) of passing through the M50 and I until I prove it wasn't me I can get charged? I find that hard to believe, my car wasn't even in Co Dublin during the mentioned time. Personally I don't think they have a leg to stand on

Ham'nd'egger

jamesozzie wrote: »

So its not really a case of innocent until proven guilty then. They can accuse me (without evidence) of passing through the M50 and I until I prove it wasn't me I can get charged? I find that hard to believe, my car wasn't even in Co Dublin during the mentioned time. Personally I don't think they have a leg to stand on

They do have evidence; a picture of car matching your registration using the M 50.

You have had ample time to challenge them on this with evidence to the contrary before they will take it to court, you are issued with a summons (Not a charge as you have not been arrested with anything here) and both sides make their case in front of a judge. Eflow don't know otherwise if you were or were not in Dublin at the time but the fact is that can make a case before or during court.

If I were you, I'd do it before court as it's far less messy now.

jamesozzie

I dont think it would ever get as far as court, what solicitor in the right mind would take that to court when they obviously don't have any evidence (as non exists) of my car passing through the M50 on the date in question. Plus the fact that even if they did have my car registration passing wouldn't the cars make and model also have to match.

I don't forsee this getting messey at all. It would be idiotic on their part when they have no evidence

Alun

jamesozzie wrote: »

Plus the fact that even if they did have my car registration passing wouldn't the cars make and model also have to match.

As others have pointed out already, if anyone is going to clone a reg plate, it's usually for one that matches both the colour and make/model of car for obvious reasons.

corktina

Id get it cleared up now...legal costs could be huge and theres no guarantee you will be awarded costs.If they turn up with a pic of an Identical car with your number on it, you will be in deep doo doo...and have to appeal etc with costs going through roof.

Ham'nd'egger

jamesozzie wrote: »

I dont think it would ever get as far as court, what solicitor in the right mind would take that to court when they obviously don't have any evidence (as non exists) of my car passing through the M50 on the date in question. Plus the fact that even if they did have my car registration passing wouldn't the cars make and model also have to match.

I don't forsee this getting messey at all. It would be idiotic on their part when they have no evidence

At this stage you are either trolling or very naive so this is my final word on this thread. If Eflow reckon you have not paid a toll then they have the legal right to come after you and prosecute you if need be; there is a law to this effect. The fact that they are contacting you shows that they have a photographic proof with a car bearing your reg plate details has incurred tolls. Unless you want to risk a summons and possible fine, contact them before it goes to court. They will prosecute dozens of other people with unpaid tolls so it's no shakes to them or the judge if it's 51 cases or 50 on the day.

steve-o

Hamndegger wrote: »

The fact that they are contacting you shows that they have a photographic proof with a car bearing your reg plate details has incurred tolls.

Not at all. It means the computer thinks it has matched the OP's number. No person has even looked at it yet. Since the OP's car wasn't there, it's most likely that the computer simply got it wrong. The car that was actually there probably had a damaged or dirty number plate. But all it takes is a quick phone call to sort it out.

GerardKeating

jamesozzie wrote: »

And what are the chances of that car being the same make and model of my car and with the same reg?

If someone goes to the bother of using a cloned licence plate, they are going to pick a plate from a similar car..

Ham'nd'egger

steve-o wrote: »

Not at all. It means the computer thinks it has matched the OP's number. No person has even looked at it yet. Since the OP's car wasn't there, it's most likely that the computer simply got it wrong. The car that was actually there probably had a damaged or dirty number plate. But all it takes is a quick phone call to sort it out.

They will have a photographic record of a car going through at that moment in time even though the computer "reads" it rightly or wrongly; either way there is some proof of right or wrong transactions and it can be cleared easily enough.:)

Carawaystick

My brother in law got a solicitors letter for a hundred and odd euros, when he rang them up they had a photo of a different model, different reg, and his car had been in a mechanics in Connacht all month....

I'd ignore it, why spend money not using the toll road, if you don't have to

brownacid

My girlfriends father was sent a letter for using the m50 toll, the vechicle they tried to charge was his tractor, he rang them up, explained that it couldn possibley have been on the m50 as its a tractor and it would be against the law to drive it there, this added to the fact that the tractor in question is stationed in meath just makes for a silly claim.

jamesozzie

Carawaystick wrote: »

My brother in law got a solicitors letter for a hundred and odd euros, when he rang them up they had a photo of a different model, different reg, and his car had been in a mechanics in Connacht all month....

I'd ignore it, why spend money not using the toll road, if you don't have to

Quiet incompetent arnt they! I suspect they got a dirty numberplate or their system read the plate wrong. Eitherway im going to ignore their letters, they cant prove anything. I'l keep you posted if it goes any further, should be interesting!

BrianD

Unfortunately by not rejecting the claim outright iy could be presumed that you are accepting it. It's not beyond the NRA's system to misread plates and it's not beyond possibility that you car has a clone driving around. If there is a clone then you have two problems a) it will be hard for you to disprove the NRA claim and b) you may have more problems coming down the line.

I would guess that the number plates get it right most of time. With no disrepect to other posters but there seems to be a lot of "my girlfriends father" etc and very few first hand stories that are similar to yours. If there is a clone out there you should be taking action. it would be foolish not to. Also being innocent isn't always a reliable defence, unfortunately!

daymobrew

steve-o wrote: »

Not at all. It means the computer thinks it has matched the OP's number. No person has even looked at it yet. Since the OP's car wasn't there, it's most likely that the computer simply got it wrong. The car that was actually there probably had a damaged or dirty number plate. But all it takes is a quick phone call to sort it out.

+1. The first letter you get is completely automated. When you ring then a human will review the pic, and drop the issue if the computer is shown to be wrong.

Just ring them. That's what I did.

MOH

BrianD wrote: »

I would guess that the number plates get it right most of time. With no disrepect to other posters but there seems to be a lot of "my girlfriends father" etc and very few first hand stories that are similar to yours. If there is a clone out there you should be taking action. it would be foolish not to. Also being innocent isn't always a reliable defence, unfortunately!

I've first hand knowledge of them getting details completely wrong. Although the letter was sent to my girlfriend's father.

Denisejcc

jamesozzie wrote: »

Hi fellow Boardsies!!

Today I recieved a fine from eFlow for "apparantly" going through the m50 on Saturday even though my car was off the road for 2 months and I was not even in county Dublin, in fact I didnt leave Wexford over the while weekend!!

Have any of you experienced this and what do you think I should do? I dont want to waste my time (and money) calling them and to be honest I think il just ignore their letters as I assume its on their part to prove I went through the toll.

Do they have to provide video evidence if it went as far as court? I hope so as my car was not even on the road, nevermind near the m50. What can happen to me should I ignore their letters?

The same thing happened my sister on a number of occassions, she was constantly ringing them as she kept getting letters with increased 'fines' on them. Persevere with them, dont ignore letters! They have a contact section on their website and they reply to you the next day, just explain it to them. My sister eventually got it sorted! Good Luck

dowlingm

In Ontario, the operators of the 407ETR (who seem about as competent as eflow by the looks) can hold up renewal of your tax-disc-equivalent.

One thought I've had is that tax discs be replaced by transponders which would double as toll transponders, but the privacy folks wouldn't like that I'd say.

BrianD

A solution would be to have a set level of allowable error an if the operator goes over this then they are fined.

I am surprised that that e-tolling systems aren't being used to enforce payment of car tax. Untaxed car goes under gantry, reg is checked against database, if it's out of date letter is sent demanding payment. it could easily be done at all toll gates.

Carawaystick

I can't believe people think it's acceptable for an arm of the govt* to demand money off you by mistake and that you should spend time and money correcting their mistake.


*Eflow is the Nra and the nra are govt. they can issue byelaws

Ste.phen

I can't believe you think people are saying that.

Eflow made a mistake, it seems, it's happened before and nobody disputed that.
But the OPs options are
a) contact them and let them know, and give them a chance to sort it out
b) ignore them, hope they'll go away, then have to go to court and deal with it there.

The OP suggested B was their preferred course of action and most people here disagreed

jenzz

Ive been down the same route - My car is officially dead. Written off & crushed in 2008. For about 8 months I received 56 seperate fines . They refused photographic evidence each time I asked. Then i received 56 summons from their solicitors. ( i know it is unbelievable). So I contacted them & the solicitor I spoke to was both laughing & crying going through it all. I told her to take me to court or provide photographic evidence.Eventually they did. The reg was identical apart from it was a D & I was a WW. They still maintained I would be taken to court if I continued to refuse to pay - At that exact point I lost the plot. Funnily enough I have received no further letters or fines. I will also add I refused to pay a single cent

daymobrew

BrianD wrote: »

I am surprised that that e-tolling systems aren't being used to enforce payment of car tax. Untaxed car goes under gantry, reg is checked against database, if it's out of date letter is sent demanding payment. it could easily be done at all toll gates.

This only checks cars passing the gantry. In reality there is an easier method - simply check the motor tax database, search for expired tax and sent out letters.

On a related topic - a local Garda told me that one of their cars has the license plate readers and this checks tax and insurance. He said that the Gardai frequently turn the reader off because it finds so many violations and the beeping is annoying :rolleyes:

BrianD

daymobrew wrote: »

This only checks cars passing the gantry. In reality there is an easier method - simply check the motor tax database, search for expired tax and sent out letters.

On a related topic - a local Garda told me that one of their cars has the license plate readers and this checks tax and insurance. He said that the Gardai frequently turn the reader off because it finds so many violations and the beeping is annoying :rolleyes:

And these Gardai (off duty) had the cheek to go join the pickets yesterday.

I agree with the database approach. The advantage of the gantry approach is that it also proves that the car is on the road and being used.

Carwaystick wrote:

I can't believe people think it's acceptable for an arm of the govt* to demand money off you by mistake and that you should spend time and money correcting their mistake.


*Eflow is the Nra and the nra are govt. they can issue byelaws

If we live in an ordered society one has to accept that errors will be made by both agencies and citizens. I would not expect any system to be infalliable. There is a very simple solution to the OPs problem. tell them they made a mistake!

By the same token, if it's unacceptable that the NRA/Eflow make a mistake it is also unacceptable for car owners to drive around with non-standard number plates or partially visible plates.

I would guess, and I haven't checked, that if you use the tolled section of the M50 that you agree to their terms and conditions which may mean that you have spend time and money challenging an error.

Carawaystick

BrianD wrote: »

I agree with the database approach. The advantage of the gantry approach is that it also proves that the car is on the road and being used.

I think there has been evidence given that the gantry approach categorically does not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a vehicle has been used.

BrianD wrote: »

If we live in an ordered society one has to accept that errors will be made by both agencies and citizens. I would not expect any system to be infalliable. There is a very simple solution to the OPs problem. tell them they made a mistake!

Maybe if the nra had a clearly outlined procedure to deal with their mistakes. I've read my bro in laws solicitors letter from the nra's legal goons and there was only certainty that the impossible had happened and the only way to avoid being sued was to pay them money.

Maybe if there was a freephone number instead of a dearer than dialing a landline rate 1890 number that'd impose no monetary cost to dispute a claim but still impose a time penalty. Or even if there was an email address to contact them. They only provide an email address for business customers while private users must use a web form with no way to cc yourself to keep them honest.

BrianD wrote: »

...

I would guess, and I haven't checked, that if you use the tolled section of the M50 that you agree to their terms and conditions which may mean that you have spend time and money challenging an error.

Firstly any such term would be an unfair term and against european law as a service provider to consumers must not impose any unfair terms which impose the bulk of the costs to consumers.
but if you think that's fine, sher it's only a small leap to make people who didn't use the toll road to suffer the costs of the states incompetence too.

BrianD

I think you are grossly exaggerating the situation. You know what the solution is. You've spent a lot of time posting here so why not write the letter to the NRA and be done with it or just call them. It can be a one liner. In fairness their web site gives adequate explaination as to how errors occur and how to rectify it. At the rate you are going, it's going to cost you more time and money.

There's also a more serious issue at stake that your number plate could have been cloned. If nothing else I'd be keen to establish that it was an NRA mistake rather than identity theft (of your vehicle).

As I said, most of the "toll tales" here are second hand stories so if it was me, I'd be making sure I'm not caught out!

BTW ringing an 1890 number is not an arduous cost to the consumer and in no way unfair under EU law.

Carawaystick

BrianD wrote: »

As I said, most of the "toll tales" here are second hand stories so if it was me, I'd be making sure I'm not caught out!

BTW ringing an 1890 number is not an arduous cost to the consumer and in no way unfair under EU law.

I have first hand knowledge of this, I read the letter and was listening to the phonecall to the nra shyster lawers.

Imposing the burden of the contract on a consumer by a business is unfair under EU law. especially one saying if we make a mistake you must pay the costs of fixing it.

My point about the 1890 number is that it is much more expensive for most people to ring it than a normal landline number and infinitely more expensive than a freephone number.
Also a lack of any email address in this day and age shows that customer satisfaction or relations are far from their minds.

leeroybrown

The OP is fooling them self if they think that ignoring the letter is the best way to deal with it. I received a similar late payment letter a few months ago. I rang them up and within a few minutes they had verified that there had been a mis-read of one number on the plate by the ANPR system. They were very pleasant and expunged the fine on the spot. Burying your head in the sand when a simple phone call will clear up the most likely source of the mis-sent letter is just plain idiocy.