The 1798 Rebellion

b12mearse

Is there any survivors stories from the 1798 Rebellion in Ireland?

mikemac

Back in 1998, Cathal O'Shannon had a short series on RTÉ. Was fantastic

I've searched high and low and even contacted RTÉ to buy a copy but can't seem to find it anywhere.

A few of the RTÉ documentaries are on youtube, the Ballyseedy one as an example.
Can't find this one though

johnny_doyle

There was a query on one of the World War 1 forums a short while re a John Colley Pounden from Ballywater near Gorey, Co Wexford who was in the Royal Army Medical Corps (RAMC) and a John Colley Pounden Beatty who was also in the RAMC. I did some research for these 2 and found they were cousins.

In doing the research for these 2 I found some lineage info and a reference to Enniscorthy in 1798 - John Pounden (a Captain in the local Yeomanry) is amongst those killed during the 1798 rebellion. He was captured during the fighting in Enniscorthy on 28th May 1798 and then executed by the rebels on Vinegar Hill. There appears to be a narrative available giving his wife Alicia's/Alice's experiences of the 1798 rebellion.
http://openlibrary.org/b/OL3618461M

Mahatma coat

I took part in the 1998 Commemorations in Wexford, there are loads of monuments erected to the memory of the men of 1798 but one of the most interestin parts was that at almost every site someone would be able to tell a narative of the events which took place and some of the names of those involved

2 of my Favourites were

Taylorstown where one of the Rebels from loughnageer spotted 2 squads of redcoats searchin the bank on the river opposite him, unaware of each others presence he fired a shot into each squad and the turned on each other

the other one is the story of a guy called Pott from Horetown who was tasked with covering the retreatin rebels, he had a number of Muskets and he held out in a tree Sniping for over 2 hours with 2 other people loading and passing muskets to him at such a pace that he was able to lay down an almost constant stream of gunfire from the enemies perspective, eventually they got his loaders then him, the guy who was recounting the story says thats where the term 'Pott Shots' comes from but I'm not sure

heres a few interestin links
http://www.iol.com/~fagann/1798/wexford.htm

Horetown
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Foulksmills

overview
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Rebellion_of_1798


i

boneless

As far as I know, Jemmy Hope, a United Irishman from Mallusk I think, who lived into the 1840's, either wrote or recounted his experiences before he died. Do a search on Google Books?

diverdriver

'The Year of Liberty' by Thomas Pakenham has plenty stories from those who were there.

There should be plenty of survivors stories from the loyalist side. Interestingly back then the redcoats were mostly Irish and many were Catholic organised in local regiments like the Longford Militia. They were officially part of the 'Irish army' because of course Ireland was not part of the union at the time. They didn't acquit themselves well.

It was more of a civil war than a rebellion at times.

MarchDub

diverdriver wrote: »

'The Year of Liberty' by Thomas Pakenham has plenty stories from those who were there.

There should be plenty of survivors stories from the loyalist side. Interestingly back then the redcoats were mostly Irish and many were Catholic organised in local regiments like the Longford Militia. They were officially part of the 'Irish army' because of course Ireland was not part of the union at the time. They didn't acquit themselves well.

It was more of a civil war than a rebellion at times.

I haven’t read this book so I can’t speak to what it says but there was never an “Irish Army” in Ireland i.e. independent of British control, until 1919. The English/British army had occupied Ireland since the time of Henry VIII but the war for the American colonies meant that they had to be more or less withdrawn from Ireland during the American War of Independence [or The Revolutionary War as they call it], because they were badly needed overseas. To make up for this serious shortfall in Ireland permission was granted to Protestant landowners to organise militias to take the place of the army until the regular units could return. Some 40,000 men volunteered. Protestant citizen-soldiers had been formed in the past but the situation in Ireland was changing and leaders of some of these volunteer corps were influenced by the political writings of William Molyneaux and French and American authors especially Thomas Paine. Catholics by law were not allowed into the British army in Ireland or anywhere else at this time but because of the shortage of men slowly some Catholics were recruited towards the end of the century and the militias also allowed some Catholics.

Things did not work out as planned. Although these volunteer martial groups were formed to act as substitutes for the depleted regular British army, they soon developed into a menacing force voicing opinions that supported Irish free trade and a lessening of British interference in Irish affairs - this was in concert with the "Patriots'" aspirations in the Irish Parliament. These mostly Protestant volunteer units became partly the basis for the United Irishmen and the rebellion in 1798.

byhookorbycrook

I was in Boolavoogue with a school tour in '98, we met an old man whose great grandfather told him of men coming to mass with hankies on their heads, having been pitch-capped in 1798.

Is the 1798 centre still open?

Clovass is on the Dublin road out of Enniscorthy.The diary of a Protestant woman living there gives an interesting account.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~skelton/Barber.htm

McArmalite

diverdriver wrote: »

'The Year of Liberty' by Thomas Pakenham has plenty stories from those who were there.

There should be plenty of survivors stories from the loyalist side. Interestingly back then the redcoats were mostly Irish and many were Catholic organised in local regiments like the Longford Militia. They were officially part of the 'Irish army' because of course Ireland was not part of the union at the time. They didn't acquit themselves well.

It was more of a civil war than a rebellion at times.

Pakenham's 'The Year of Liberty' is possibly the worst book ever written on an aspect of Irish history - and that's saying something. It's like watching the Irish RM TV series a few years ago ' Paddy and the drunken pig ' sort of thing while a ' bemused but benign English gentlemen look on ' multiplied by ten. I only went a third way into it and threw it away. Here's some reviews of it over on Amazon -

" Thomas Pakenham is a quintessential 20th century Anglo-Irishman, the son of the "Seventh Earl of Longford", an "Irish" title granted by a British monarch for past services probably best forgotten.........The book, based mostly on the story left by the loyalist, colonialist side - on the record left by the "official" (winners) sources......There is no inkling of the life of the "hidden Ireland" of the Gaelic, Catholic majority as human beings. We see them only as bodies left on the battlefields, ignorant and ill-led........ Pakenham's picture is of an emotional mob led by the odd priest here and there......Born and educated in England he still has Irish roots, including a family "castle" in Westmeath "

http://www.amazon.com/Year-Liberty-Great-Irish-Rebellion/product-reviews/0812930886/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

McArmalite

b12mearse wrote: »

Is there any survivors stories from the 1798 Rebellion in Ireland?

Morlar posted over on the History forum about The Carrickshock Incident 1831. It was a riot between RIC and the locals mostly Catholics during the Tithe War who had not paid the taxes levied upon them to support the local Church of Ireland parson. 14 RIC were killed and three locals. On post 3 he said a survivor/witness to the pitchcapping of the 1798 croppies who went among the wounded and finished them off with a bayonet.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055612415&highlight=Carrickshock

Here's more on it and the memorial to them. http://www.flickr.com/photos/joecashin/3348402925/

diverdriver

I haven’t read this book so I can’t speak to what it says but there was never an “Irish Army” in Ireland i.e. independent of British control, until 1919.

Sigh:rolleyes: It was referred to as such, can't find a reference at the moment. You can of course prefer to be pedantic and stick to your own version of history.

I'm not surprised you didn't finish the book McArmalite. I suspect you wouldn't like any book that in any challenged your particular narrow view of Irish history.

MarchDub

diverdriver wrote: »

Sigh:rolleyes: It was referred to as such, can't find a reference at the moment. You can of course prefer to be pedantic and stick to your own version of history.

I certainly didn't mean to cause offense to you - I was just trying to fill you in on the history of the eighteenth century militias and the circumstances surrounding their formation.

And you're right - I am pedantic. Very.

johnny_doyle

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I was in Boolavoogue with a school tour in '98, we met an old man whose great grandfather told him of men coming to mass with hankies on their heads, having been pitch-capped in 1798.

Is the 1798 centre still open?

Clovass is on the Dublin road out of Enniscorthy.The diary of a Protestant woman living there gives an interesting account.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~skelton/Barber.htm

the 1798 centre was open August last year when we popped in but they seem to be reducing their opening hours - sadly struggling to get sufficient visitors. We'd hoped to tour Enniscorthy Castle too but it was shut for renovation. Seemed daft closing in the main tourist season.

McArmalite

diverdriver wrote: »

I'm not surprised you didn't finish the book McArmalite. I suspect you wouldn't like any book that in any challenged your particular narrow view of Irish history.

Well my opinion of the book is the same as the people who have posted their reviews of it on Amazon. I actually have a very broadview of Irish history and of 1798 when Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter alike under the common name of Irishmen fought ferociously to free this country.

To quote more of the reviewers from Amazon " In his effort to dampen popular sentiment about "The Boys of Wexford", Pakenham squeezes the life out of those very real boys.....but look elsewhere for serious study of the Great Rebellion of 1798. "

McArmalite

johnny_doyle wrote: »

the 1798 centre was open August last year when we popped in but they seem to be reducing their opening hours - sadly struggling to get sufficient visitors. We'd hoped to tour Enniscorthy Castle too but it was shut for renovation. Seemed daft closing in the main tourist season.

I googled for information on the Visitor center and I got the following comparision with the French revolution which tells of the scale of '98 in Wexford. " The poignancy of war is made apparent to the visitor in a stunning audio visual presentation which informs that County Wexford experienced eleven out of twenty-three battles and, in a four week period, lost 20,000 people from a population of 120,000. By comparison, the first six years of the French Revolution cost the lives of 25,000 people from a population of thirty million. "

http://www.iol.ie/~98com/english.htm

johnny_doyle

McArmalite wrote: »

I googled for information on the Visitor center and I got the following comparision with the French revolution which tells of the scale of '98 in Wexford. " The poignancy of war is made apparent to the visitor in a stunning audio visual presentation which informs that County Wexford experienced eleven out of twenty-three battles and, in a four week period, lost 20,000 people from a population of 120,000. By comparison, the first six years of the French Revolution cost the lives of 25,000 people from a population of thirty million. "

http://www.iol.ie/~98com/english.htm

I rate this as a good (but small) museum which does a good job of telling the story of 1798 and the rebellion in Wexford (and then into Wicklow) in the context of Ireland, Europe and America. Picked up a basic booklet called "Exploring 1798" and "Rebellion! Ireland in 1798" by Daniel Gahan. OK reads.

The Centre is poorly marketed in my opinion (the website URL being a case in point).

Whilst I would put the 1798 centre and Enniscorthy Castle on the list of "must visit" when in Wexford, the Yola Centre near Rosslare is a huge disappointment.

Judgement Day

There is a wealth of published information on the 1798 rebellion of varying reliabilty and bias. The earliest histories were written by the victors as is the norm and despite being extremely biased the account by Sir Richard Musgrave in his tome: Memoirs of the Different Rebellions in Ireland from the Arrival of the English: Also, a Particular Detail of That Which Broke Out the 23d of May, 1798; with the History of the Conspiracy Which Preceded It is a fascinating compilation of facts, figures, maps, actual names of victims (loyalists) etc and taken with some of the other accounts e.g. The Memoirs of Miles Byrne give a real feel for the awful events that occurred during that summer. Musgrave was a stickler for facts and while his work was out of fashion for years due to its anti-Irish bias, it has enjoyed something of a revival amongst historians as a reliable source. A high quality reprint of the large book (982 pages) was published in 1998 and, quite often, can be had for €80/100 on www.abebooks.com . Other books that should be in any collection on 1798 are "The Peoples Rising" by Daniel Gahan and "The Wexford Rising" by Dickson. I am reprinting another contemporary book on the subject written by George Taylor in 1800 A History of the Rise, Progress, and Suppression of the Rebellion in the County of Wexford, in the Year 1798. To which is Annexed the Author's Account of His Captivity, and Merciful Deliverance. - another very biased account but the author was in the thick of things so it is of interest and has not been in print since 1907.

Another very useful book is: The Uniforms of 1798-1803 (A 1798 bicentenary book) by Glen Thompson - published in 1998.
In full colour - the uniforms of all the main participants - militias, yeomanry, United Irishmen and regular army plus some of the cannon used.

The museum at Enniscorthy Castle is due to reopen next summer as part of the Enniscorthy 1500th anniversary celebrations but I wouldn't hold my breath. The National 1798 Centre is a workman like interpretative centre but is more suitable for school children than serious history enthusiasts.

I find 1798 a fascinating period in Irish history and sufficiently far enough in the past to be viewed dispassionately unlike the more recent troubles.

gizmo555

b12mearse wrote: »

Is there any survivors stories from the 1798 Rebellion in Ireland?

Daniel Gahan's The People's Rising: Wexford, 1798 is an excellent history which draws extensively on contemporary eyewitness acounts.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Peoples-Rising-Wexford-1798/dp/0717123235/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259868823&sr=8-2