im done with home drum recording ....

i57dwun4yb1pt8

cos I got my hands on this ( thomann deal with NY expansions )

http://www.toontrack.com/products.asp?item=30


and a second hand one of these

http://achamilton.co.uk/drums/pictures/TD20K.JPG


and it sounds like this

http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/39488-sd-human-1.mp3

this is recorded in REAPER - i can play the sounds real time in this with NO latency - so im using this as my daw from now on

this is the stereo output from the SD2 kit with the worst toms
( the toms i reckon sounds most like samples )
and even these are great
a touch of eq on the kick - a touch of buss reverb and buss compression not much

and thats it , no other eq or effects - its nearly dry to be honest

holy freaking mama

PMI

Welcome to the end of the tunnel my friend.... I hope more will follow

studiorat

The cymbals sound like a machine the left crash/splash and the closed hi-hat doesn't sound to hot either. Are you left handed? the kit sounds backward to me or something.. I'm listening on cans DT-150's.

The playing sounds like a reall player but the kit still sounds like a bunch of samples to me. There's no feeling or a room or anybody being there.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

give it a chance mate iv only got it working last night - have to tweak it a bit yet -

its panned the correct way -

( from the audience point of view - i dont subscribe to the drummers point of view camp )


and thats the worst kit on it - sound wise - to me

and in a mix , youll never know the differnece .

gsparx

Sounds great to me. The snare is a little too compressed and lifeless for my taste but I'm impressed.
I'd LOVE to get one of those kits and I'm not even a drummer.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

the actual td20 kit sounds arent great - im using software to trigger instead.

the td20 appears to realtime synthesise drum sounds - and its too digital sounding for my ears.

the SD2 samples how ever are another story

ZV Yoda

I had a listen & am very impressed... I think the shells sound amazing. The hats/cymbals do the job, but I'll bet some tweaking would probaly get them sounding even better.

When you compare that sound to what you can get from an acoustic kit in the same room, there's really no comparison if you want to get a pro sounding track. It's the difference between demo quality vs. commercial quality for me. Granted, a purist may say it's not real drums, but as a drummer who's been frustrated with the sound of my acoustic kit, I've been sorely tempted by ekits before. The mesh heads are very playable & have more zones/sensitivity that most drummers (me included) will probably need.

Given the plug & playability, no messing with mic placement, phase, spill or reflections… in fact, no dealing with crappy room ambience in general... not to mention the ability to play all night without having the neighbourhood watch come looking for you... it's hard to see any real downside for somebody with a home set up. Aside from the big price tag... those TD20s are €5-6k new.

Time to start writing my letter to Santa....

ZV Yoda

.. by the way DaDumTish, I just dropped you an email there...

eoin5

I like the dynamic control you have with it. My td-6 sucks for that. Dammit I want a TD-20 now

ZV Yoda

Niall - Dahlia wrote: »

Really? Might want to think twice about that, when thousands of people are using the exact same "perfect" drum sound as you.

I'm sure Average Joe will be unaware, but as an engineer/mixer/creator of music that's not a great attitude to have in my opinion.

Samples have their place, but I don't think it should completely replace. Even just something from your room, to give it a bit of character and distinction. What's to mark your drum sound out from everybody else that uses SD? Nothing I'm afraid. It's cookie cutter.

Have you completely given up on your home drums? Wasn't there a thread earlier of somebody who was using samples but his room cymbals/hats? Have you tried that?

I'm not trying to target you or anything DaDumTish, and like you've said you've just got your hands on SD, I just think it's a trap alot of people fall into (me included at times!) to think SD/BFD are the solution to all their drum problems. Certain tracks will call for it but in general relying completely on samples and "you'll never know the difference" is wrong.

Or maybe I'm just not in the best humour after the match.

That might have been me in that other thread you mentioned... I agree with most of what you say above, but they way I look at it is this… most of us home studio warriors simply do not have the room, gear, skills, time and/or money to get a pro sound from an acoustic kit in a typical garage / bedroom / attic home set up.

Using the ekit makes a lot of sense in that scenario… you get the drummer’s performance but then use sounds that were professionally recorded. Yes, they may be used on lot of other recordings, but depending on how the samples applied/mixed/processed, you can still keep some individuality.

Even some of the pros on here who have great live rooms & gear use samples to augment/replace drums.

Re using “some” of the rooms sounds, I’d agree with that… unless the room sounds dodgy – in which case, why drag down the quality of the recording.

Really though, for somebody who is primarily a drummer/musician, the ekit approach pretty much removes the technical aspects of recording & just allows you to get on with recording music.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

well, now i expected this .
anyone with a commercial studio is going to say " real drums are better , samples have no character "

but ive only just got it - and i can add my own character using a combo of playing style , and some processing - and once its in the track - with other instruments as you said only pro engineers will really hear if at all that its samples - i can live with that .
90% of tunes today are drum machines and samples any way .

its better to have an " i want to make music , hassle free "
attitude
than a " i want every producer and engineer to hear my real drums sounds , and break me hole trying to get them " attutude

ive tried everytthing - and this is the way forward for home producers.


joe public , if they ever hear any of the tunes- will just hear a great drum sound , and not give a damn how it came about .

far as im concerned - this is the same as me going to a great studio with great gear and recording my drums there .

most mixes I hear to day , particlualry local ones , youd may as well use samples as the real drums they use sound brutal and over processed.

the close mics in most studios are always going to sound similar - samples or not

its the room mics and processing that make the difference - and this i can work on .

oh, and what match ?? -
sorry i was busy making music with my bad attitude

woodsdenis

I do have to agree with DaDumTish on this one. A perfectly tuned kit with a perfect set of mikes and pres in recorded in Ocean Way is something that is ideal, but in practice unobtainable for most people. The quality of drum VI's BFD/Toontrack/StevenSlate etc are exceptional these days. Use them and get on with making music. This is the same argument that pertains to real or sampled pianos. Ivory etc have raised the bar to such an extent that I defy anyone to tell the difference. I would definitely try the BFD out with this setup as the samples are not as processed, if you like that sorta thing.
SD2 is a very polished piece of kit though. The only strange element in all of this is the interface with the software, the TD20, if you can get your head around that then there is no issue with using these VI's I think. I am not a drummer so only a drummer can comment on the ease of use of these pads.
I am sure pads are not the same as real drums but you get used to anything if you have the talent. Oscar Peterson, Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea etc all embraced plastic keys,and at the time really bad ones, and they came from a purist piano playing environment, so whats the difference. Its the drummers turn now

i57dwun4yb1pt8

the td20 pads are great , with real time monitoring its a close enough feel as to mean very little technique adjustments are needed.

im just surpised at how much feel and touch can be pulled out , its remarkable .

and you can bang down a human played midi file , and BOSH any producer can take this and run with it - email the sucker to someone , and they have an instant drum track / email the SD profile file and they can load up as if you were in the same studio with them.



note - you should be able to get the td6 and others to respond as well- im still playing with trigger settings and articulation in SD and id say you could use a tupper ware box and get good dymanics with this thing.



Sorry if this appears to rub noses in it for studio owners , this is not my intention - my intention is to hilight to music producers / home warriors that there is an easier way .

my setup cost appox 3k mosty second hand , i sold a top line acoustic kit to get this - and i still have all other my acoustic drums .

a good kit with good pres , mics , = 10 k?
and you need a good room and loads of patience.

Aridstarling

As someone who has been down the road (and still is going down the road) of home drum recording I think I'd have to agree with Niall here. Up to an extent. Both methods have their pros and cons so to rule either out entirely is very close minded. Sure for a basic pop track you'll probably be fine with samples, maybe metal as well, but if you're really going for something original well they do lack the ambiguity of a kit in a room. Its that ambiguity that creates interest for a listener, gives the recording a character, in my book at least.

Plus I like miking up drums, experimenting, learning all the time, its good fun and it benefits me as an engineer in so many ways. In times when I need a quick fix I'll drumagog the snare or kick but its the sound of the kit in the room that makes it feel real for me, coming from a more rock/indie/country angle on this. By all means use samples, the results get better all the time (which may be the problem) but for me, they are far from the be all and end all even for home recordists.

Rockshamrover

The biggest part of a drum sound is the guy playing the drums.

For part timers like myself, using plugin drums just saves so much time, money and effort. Addicted to addictive.

Having said that, If I was doing this full time and could properly finance it, I would go with real drums.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

whatever Niall,


SD provides better dry , raw sounds / splits than i have heard to date coming from studios run in ireland - so why bother with them ?


this sweeping statement is bar one studio - AP studios .

if you cant go there , or you are at home - then use SD

I havent heard that chaps place in tipperary - so will give him the benefit of the doubt- he also appears to know what hes doing .

ZV Yoda

Well, I've decided to turn to the dark side too... just ordered me a TD12 & SD2.0. Having seen for myself how well this combination works in a home set up, there’s no contest with an acoustic kit. I will sample my own kit before I sell my mics & preamp. That way, at least I’ll have the option to use them/mix them in with the stock samples.

Niall… I understand where you’re coming from (as an engineer/studio owner I assume?)... but I want to spend my time making music rather than learning the mechanics of recording music. 18 months ago I was a total novice at home recording. In that time, I have learned (and spent!) enough to know I'll never be happy with the drum sound I get with my own room, gear or engineering skills. So for me, I’d rather work with professionally recorded sounds & just get on with making music.

Having said that, I definitely won’t be selling my acoustic kit… so when I finally make my first million from my music, I’ll be straight down to the best studio I can find to record the next album on my acoustic kit!

TelePaul

Has anyone used an ED kit with the stock samples in a practice situation?

ZV Yoda

Got my TD12 set up last night & triggering Superior Drummer 2.0 in Pro Tools. Tiny bit of latency, but I'm sure I'll sort that by tweaking the playback engine settings.

First impressions... should have done it ages ago. It pretty much removes all of the tracking/acoustic headaches in one swoop. It's definitely me playing the drums (I know because it’s out of time ) but the sound of the kit is infinitely better than anything I’d get in my room.

It’s exactly the same as using any other midi device (e.g. keyboard) to create a performance… & then applying whatever samples/sounds/VST work best to bring out the best in the performance/song.

Rockshamrover

ZV Yoda wrote: »

Got my TD12 set up last night & triggering Superior Drummer 2.0 in Pro Tools. Tiny bit of latency, but I'm sure I'll sort that by tweaking the playback engine settings.

First impressions... should have done it ages ago. It pretty much removes all of the tracking/acoustic headaches in one swoop. It's definitely me playing the drums (I know because it’s out of time ) but the sound of the kit is infinitely better than anything I’d get in my room.

It’s exactly the same as using any other midi device (e.g. keyboard) to create a performance… & then applying whatever samples/sounds/VST work best to bring out the best in the performance/song.

Welcome to the darkside:D

i57dwun4yb1pt8

good man yoda - im loving this thing -

ive manged to get all the SD outputs now spilt into seperate tracks in the daw
so can process the splits independently -
this has made it even better .

the room mics are great , the raw close wavs are wonderful , and it just sits so well
- even the dry mix when you bring it up just has that 'i just tracked in a very expensive studio ' feel

fan-fcuking-tastic

in other news , the latest version of reaper is stupendous.

woodsdenis

ZV Yoda wrote: »

Got my TD12 set up last night & triggering Superior Drummer 2.0 in Pro Tools. Tiny bit of latency, but I'm sure I'll sort that by tweaking the playback engine settings.

First impressions... should have done it ages ago. It pretty much removes all of the tracking/acoustic headaches in one swoop. It's definitely me playing the drums (I know because it’s out of time ) but the sound of the kit is infinitely better than anything I’d get in my room.

It’s exactly the same as using any other midi device (e.g. keyboard) to create a performance… & then applying whatever samples/sounds/VST work best to bring out the best in the performance/song.

In case you two Darth Vaders didnt know:D

http://www.protoolerblog.com/2009/11/23/toontrack-superior-drummer-2-2-1-now-available/

ZV Yoda

Rockshamrover wrote: »

Welcome to the darkside:D

Cheers... to say I'm a happy camper is an injustice to happy campers :cool:

DaDumTish wrote: »

good man yoda - im loving this thing -

ive manged to get all the SD outputs now spilt into seperate tracks in the daw
so can process the splits independently -
this has made it even better .

the room mics are great , the raw close wavs are wonderful , and it just sits so well
- even the dry mix when you bring it up just has that 'i just tracked in a very expensive studio ' feel

fan-fcuking-tastic

in other news , the latest version of reaper is stupendous.

I've just been using the SD mixer for now. I will spend a bit of time tweaking the various bits & pieces, but since even the unprocessed stuff is so much better than the sound I was getting previously, I'm going to spend a week or so re-tracking a lot of our songs that weren't cutting the mustard because of the drum sound. We've set ourselves a target of getting a heap of new songs finished & up on the website by the end of the the year, so I'm back to playing drums for the fun of it... and no need to get out pieces of string to measure mic distances. And I haven't even received the NY expansion pack yet (it's on back order). Happy days!

woodsdenis wrote: »

In case you two Darth Vaders didnt know:D

http://www.protoolerblog.com/2009/11/23/toontrack-superior-drummer-2-2-1-now-available/

Thanks Denis... I got an email about that when I registered my copy of SD. It just keeps getting better...

ZV Yoda

... and I'll let you in on a secret...

... once you get used to the mesh heads being smaller than a normal drum head (the TD12 has a 10" snare & 3 x 8" toms)... then vDrums are a lot easier to play than an acoustic kit... if for no other reason than it's much easier to get a really comfortable set up than with a big acoustic kit. It's much more compact so everything is easier to get around.

(Shush, don't tell anybody)

i57dwun4yb1pt8

yeeeeeeeeeeeeee an update - thanks Denis

PaulBrewer

Mesh Heads me Hole, ya bunch a losers !

ZV Yoda

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Mesh Heads me Hole, ya bunch a losers !

Guilty as charged... but I have to say this... playing, writing & recording music is a hell of a lot more enjoyable for me when I remove the room/mic/engineering headaches from the equation.

More advantages I'm finding with the ekit:

• The kit is very compact. So, having re-arranged a few things my 12x12 room, I've a lot more space & it's just a lot more comfortable/chilled. My next purchase for the studio is going to have to be a lava lamp... it just feels like it needs one!
• The ekit is silent... so no curfew on playing
• Trying out different drums/cymbals on Superior Drummer has led me to try different styles/fills on songs that I'd never have though of before
• I can keep practising a part/drum fill till I get it right... and I don't deafen myself in the process
• The whole drum recording process is incredbly fast & painless
• Like I said before, it's still not the same as an acoustic kit, but for getting good quality drums using a small home set up this is the only game in town for me.

Did I mention I really like this new set up?

PaulBrewer

ZV Yoda wrote: »

Guilty as charged... but I have to say this... playing, writing & recording music is a hell of a lot more enjoyable for me when I remove the room/mic/engineering headaches from the equation.

More advantages I'm finding with the ekit:

• The kit is very compact. So, having re-arranged a few things my 12x12 room, I've a lot more space & it's just a lot more comfortable/chilled. My next purchase for the studio is going to have to be a lava lamp... it just feels like it needs one!
• The ekit is silent... so no curfew on playing
• Trying out different drums/cymbals on Superior Drummer has led me to try different styles/fills on songs that I'd never have though of before
• I can keep practising a part/drum fill till I get it right... and I don't deafen myself in the process
• The whole drum recording process is incredbly fast & painless
• Like I said before, it's still not the same as an acoustic kit, but for getting good quality drums using a small home set up this is the only game in town for me.

Did I mention I really like this new set up?

Nah - it makes more sense in your set up ok - a well known Dublin 4 piece have one in their Hanover Quay Studio too ...

booooonzo

Got myself a td-12 and Superior Drummer 2 too
I think its excellent for the smaller studios and drummer/engineer types as its hard to play and engineer at the same time, very time consuming.

However I can't get the hats working as good as i think they should.
Does anyone have a file that could be loaded in to improve the feel of the hats?

cheers

dav nagle

The guys at Westland swear by v drums so there..

RealEstateKing

for the home recordist.

Its easy enough to get good guitar sounds at home, as with an SM57 jammed straight into a cab, your crappy room doesnt matter so much. But getting good drum sounds at home is very hard, not to mention that your neighbours and/or flatmates will hate you forever.

I use Addictive Drums now and dont look back. Sure it's not real drums, but If you're careful theres no reason for it to sound "Samply" - try not to quantise if you can get away with it, and pump up those room mikes.

And a little parrallell bus compression (New York) can really dirty things up and get it sounding real too.