Owing a load of money and leaving the country

mozattack

No not me (above)

Heard that my former employer is leaving Ireland to go to the Australia despite owing £30m to the bank.

How is this possible?

Thicktights

I presume he still has the price of the fare left.

Our man in Havana

mozattack wrote: »

No not me (above)

Heard that my former employer is leaving Ireland to go to the Australia despite owing £30m to the bank.

How is this possible?

It is a civil matter. So long as he has a passport he is free to leave the state and go wherever he likes subject to having the correct entry visas.

drunkmonkey

Do debts travel?

The more I think about starting my glass bottom tour boat business in the Caribbean, the more I want to throw my hat at this god forsaken, rain drenched Island, only problem is the debts, can AIB get a warrant for me or anything out there?

/christ I need some vitamin D badly/

Our man in Havana

can AIB get a warrant for me or anything out there?

Highly unlikely.

Aprilsunshine

There is a whole area of law based on enforcement of judgments so you would need to check if Ireland and Australia have any agreements with each other or any international obligations such as Hague Convention etc...

So not actually as simple as it seems.

mozattack

Very interesting and quite frankly a disgrace. This guy owes €30m is selling his accountancy firm and leaving here to probably start up over there.

Shocking how they can get away with this when, for example, Meteor hound me when my bill was unpaid for two weeks :mad:

dermot_sheehan

It is possible to enforce judgments, even outside the EU. One would enforce a non-eu judgment in ireland by a summary summons in the high court.

It is possible (but rare) to get an order impounding a debtor's passport or an order for arrest of an absconding bankrupt under section 9 of the bankruptcy act.

Our man in Havana

Indeed, however bankruptcy is a very rare thing in this country.

MrMicra

Australia is a UNCITRAL country so his creditors can chase him over there. I am also pretty sure (but this could be dead wrong can't be arsed checking) that they don't recognise self settled trusts.
We recognise them of course, for non residents :eek::mad:

drunkmonkey if your debts are big enough go bust in England and then head out to the caribbean!

Our man in Havana

Can a Irish resident declare bankruptcy in the UK?

Tom Young

The answer is yes, if the Bankrupt has his centre of main interests there. Otherwise it may not be accepted by the UK courts.

EU Insolvency Regulation (Council Regulation (EC) No 1346 / 2000 of 29th May 2000) For the purpose of giving this full effect the Government enacted SI 334 0f 2002 the European Communities (Personal Insolvency) Regulations 2002.

In the case of a foreign resident (who is not domiciled here but whose centre of main interests, within the meaning of Article 3 of the EU Insolvency Regulations, is in Ireland) it would be possible to rely on their carrying on business within the state in order to commence bankruptcy proceedings. In cases where there is a transnational element the question of domicile will now give way to the question of where the centre of main interest, e.g. where business is done is will come to the fore. Equally an insolvent Irish citizen with business interests in the EU may be declared insolvent in accordance with the provisions applicable in another EU jurisdiction.

EC1000

Bond-007 wrote: »

Can a Irish resident declare bankruptcy in the UK?

I'm open to correction but AFAIK you cant "declare" bankruptcy (as in the US) here or in the UK, it is up to others to do that for you.

Our man in Havana

Nope. A person can self bankrupt.

Go have a read of The Bankruptcy Act 1988 and in particular Section 11 (3).

MrMicra

Tom Young wrote: »

In the case of a foreign resident (who is not domiciled here but whose centre of main interests, within the meaning of Article 3 of the EU Insolvency Regulations, is in Ireland) it would be possible to rely on their carrying on business within the state in order to commence bankruptcy proceedings. In cases where there is a transnational element the question of domicile will now give way to the question of where the centre of main interest, e.g. where business is done is will come to the fore.

For most people the COMI is where you live. For a 'professional' it is where business is conducted. If you take a look at the EuroFoods case the core of the definition is 'ascertainable by third parties' and that is gold plated good law so far as our courts are concerned.

For a look at English authority (most relevant to ourselves I think) look at Eichler, Skjevesland and Stojevic.
There is also French authority (can't remember the name look up cour d'appel Colmar) on the COMI.
Of course these are anomalous because for 90% of Irish people the most sensible way to change COMI is to actually move to Northern Ireland or England and Wales rather than use the bizarre circumlocutions that these cases deal with.

Tom Young wrote: »

Equally an insolvent Irish citizen with business interests in the EU may be declared insolvent in accordance with the provisions applicable in another EU jurisdiction.

Only if it is his COMI. Rights in Rem are excluded from regulation 1346/2000 so any liens or mortgages are dealt with under the 'lex situ'.

It is an interesting area and one that we might all enviously consider. The more generous the provisions of insolvency the more 'bankruptcy tourists'. The only headline I've ever seen in an English magazine that said 'thank God for the EEC was in an Insolvency Practitioners magazine!

Tom Young

In the case of foreign resident who are not domiciled here but whose centre of main interest, within the meaning of Article 3 of the EU Insolvency Regulations, is in Ireland it would be possible to rely on their carrying on business within the State. It can be assumed that in cases where there is a transnational element the question of domicile will now recede and the question of where the centre of main interest (i.e., where the business is done) will come to the fore. The UK personal insolvency case of Shierson v Vlieland-Boddy [2005] EWCA Civ 974 / 2005 1 WLR 3966 it was held that the centre of main interests is determined at the time the court opens insolvency proceedings, which would be the presentation of a petition. There is also a necessary subjective element to the determination by the Court insofar as it should take account the likely perception of third parties as to where the centre of main interests is. In adopting this approach the Court referred to, and followed, the Irish corporate insolvency decision of the Supreme Court in the case of In Re. Eurofoods IFSC Limited [2004] IESC 45, so the likelihood is that the Irish bankruptcy Courts will follow this line of authority. Per Chadwick
LJ.:-

‘The Irish Court pointed out that there were two elements to be considered under recital (13) to the Regulation: (i) that the centre of main interests should be where the company has conducted the administration of its interests on a regular basis and (ii) that the centre of main interests must be such as is ascertainable by third parties. But, beyond that, there is nothing which assists on the issues in the present appeal. The Irish Court referred questions to the European Court of Justice for a preliminary ruling; but it has not been suggested that those are questions which arise in the present appeal.’

There is provision made for secondary or territorial insolvency proceedings to deal with assets in another jurisdiction. However, it is likely that if the Creditor has security (rights in rem) then in accordance with Article 5 the creditor will wish to pursue that security in the normal way. In the Irish context it has usually been the case that the secured creditor would remain outside of any bankruptcy process and this remains possible under the new regime.