Music Production + Engineering Courses?!?!

Troyad21

Hey lads,
I'm sure this has come up before and I have read the numerous arguments for and against degree and diploma courses and the lack of job prospects afterwards and students annoying studios for jobs and so on. I'm lucky enough to be in a secure, fairly well paid job but I'm unhappy with what I'm doing. I really got into the whole production/engineering thing a few months back and find it really interesting. I'm only 21(still young) and because I'm lucky to I have a secure job I'm willing to pay the money to do a part time course somewhere purely for the interest, improving and the love of doing it whether I get a job at the end of it is irrelevant but obviously would be a major bonus and dream come true.
What I'm looking for is advice on the best course to do for the money?!?!
I've researched a lot of different places (Pulse, STC, Academy of Sound and so on) but they all seem fairly similar.
At the moment the Academy of Sound is winning as it looks like the most hands on course, class numbers are tiny and from what I can make out experience at the desk is essential the get anywhere.
I'd like to get advice from some independent, experienced people(there seems to be a lot here)as I feel the college/studios are only telling me what I want to hear.
Any advice or tips would be great.
Thanks for taking the time to read,
Brian.

DamagedTrax

i did part time in pulse last year and transferred to full time this year.

i couldnt recommend the college enough.

the part time course is very very hands on with plenty of practicals and work with bands and only 5/6 people max per group. lectures are amazing with some top industry experts giving great talks (only last week we had jimmy eadie giving us a great lecture on impulse responses and acoustics)

i have a friend in poppy hill, she recently started there and she's loving every minute of it. not sure if they have part time though.

no idea about STC as i dont know anyone there.

Troyad21

DamagedTrax wrote: »

i did part time in pulse last year and transferred to full time this year.

i couldnt recommend the college enough.

the part time course is very very hands on with plenty of practicals and work with bands and only 5/6 people max per group. lectures are amazing with some top industry experts giving great talks (only last week we had jimmy eadie giving us a great lecture on impulse responses and acoustics)

i have a friend in poppy hill, she recently started there and she's loving every minute of it. not sure if they have part time though.

no idea about STC as i dont know anyone there.

Cheers for the advice and input Trax....
This is exactly why I posted here....I dont know anyone that does this or is even into it like me so any and all advice and experiences are appreciated.
One question though....Do you know if you can pay by direct debit as nearly 3 grand is a bit steep straight up?!?!
I emailed them yesterday but nothing back about it yet.
Thanks again man.

DamagedTrax

yeah, you can split the payment over monthly installments.

give it a day or two, they'll definitly get back to you.

Troyad21

DamagedTrax wrote: »

yeah, you can split the payment over monthly installments.

give it a day or two, they'll definitly get back to you.

Cheers....Thanks again man.
Really appreciate it.

jiltloop

I did a full time course in STC and loved every minute of it. Facilities were great, plenty of practical work, sound staff so I can reccomend that place. Don't know anything about the other colleges though.

BumbleB

I never went to pulse but I did attend a workshop held them at at the hot press music show and I was pretty impressed by the speaker and his insight into recording vocals.

studiorat

There's a new part-time course coming up soon, doing the same City and Guilds syllabus and accredited by them too. It looks as though it will be a hell of a lot cheaper with smaller class sizes aswell.

That's all I can say in public for the moment...

Troyad21

studiorat wrote: »

There's a new part-time course coming up soon, doing the same City and Guilds syllabus and accredited by them too. It looks as though it will be a hell of a lot cheaper with smaller class sizes aswell.

That's all I can say in public for the moment...

Cheers for that man.
Will you keep me posted with any progress?!?!
P.M. if you have to.

TelePaul

Not knocking pulse, just offering another perspective.

For the money you'd spend enrolling in a course, you could afford a nice little home setup. I've been interested in music production for a couple of years, but like yourself, don't have as much time as I'd like to devote to it. I started off very modestly with "Home Recording for Dummies", signed up to a few forums and havn't really looked back.

A mate of mine attended the pulse course (full time) and he's picked up an awful lot in a year...but I'm still amazed at the stuff he doesn't know; granted, alot of it will come with practice. You might be better off learning at 'the coal face'.

Troyad21

TelePaul wrote: »

Not knocking pulse, just offering another perspective.

For the money you'd spend enrolling in a course, you could afford a nice little home setup. I've been interested in music production for a couple of years, but like yourself, don't have as much time as I'd like to devote to it. I started off very modestly with "Home Recording for Dummies", signed up to a few forums and havn't really looked back.

A mate of mine attended the pulse course (full time) and he's picked up an awful lot in a year...but I'm still amazed at the stuff he doesn't know; granted, alot of it will come with practice. You might be better off learning at 'the coal face'.

Cheers for the input man.
I've learnt a bit myself through the internet and also just trial and error.
I'm handy enough with Logic Express at this stage so planning on upgrading to the new Pro version soon enough.I already have a decent enough home setup for what I do so that's not a problem.To be honest I'm probably over equipped for going into a course, haha. I got Pro Tools 8 as part of a studio bundle a few months back but havent really used it as I'm hooked on Logic purely for the easy use and access to MIDI editing and a lot of virtual instruments.The way I see it is, I'm never gonna get in the door of any studio without the piece of paper to say I'm not gonna wreck the place if you let me near a mixing desk or any other expensive piece of kit, its a bit like a safe pass on a building site I reckon, haha.I know its a lot of money but I'm hoping its worth it in the long run plus I'll never know if I don't give it a go.
I just want to get as much info and opinions as possible before I make up my mind on where or what to do.
Thanks again though I really appreciate your input.

PaulBrewer

TelePaul wrote: »

You might be better off learning at 'the coal face'.

TP may have a point - while there are differing views on the value of a 'course' - I've yet to hear an argument against learning from Pros on the job, if you have that increasingly rare opportunity.

Off course working at the 'coal face' involves getting you hands dirty ......oh, and making tea.

Aridstarling

Another different perspective and probably not something you're interested in but I'm in NUI Maynooth doing the Music Technology course. Its combined with an arts subject and you don't really get as much time as you might in Pulse and the like but for a more scientific or academic future in the industry as opposed to just another fader pusher then I doubt it can be beat. It is geared quite a lot towards post-grads and the facilities for that level of research and development are excellent and some of the staff are very well regarded in their fields.

It probably wont suit you if you're looking to just get some teaching on general audio engineering but if you're interested in something a little more out there and progressive its pretty excellent. You do get the bonus of an extra subject too and I'm really enjoying the English course.

PaulBrewer

Arid makes a good point too - learn stuff in college that you probably won't on the job.

Troyad21

PaulBrewer wrote: »

TP may have a point - while there are differing views on the value of a 'course' - I've yet to hear an argument against learning from Pros on the job, if you have that increasingly rare opportunity.

Off course working at the 'coal face' involves getting you hands dirty ......oh, and making tea.

Like you said Paul "that increasingly rare opportunity"....
Its probably going to be even rarer if you don't have the paper to prove what you can do?!?!
Someone who owns a studio and probably spent there life savings on it, I doubt is gonna let any aul joe soap walk in a start push faders and pressing buttons.
I've read some of your posts in other threads Paul and you seem like a fella very much in the know so by no means am I putting down what you are saying.
I just find it hard to believe especially in this day and age that a studio owner or engineer who has a reputation to keep and a lot of money spent on equipment is gonna take on any aul person like an apprenticeship back a few years ago.
Never mind making tea....I'd tea bag a producer/engineer for a job in a studio, haha

Aridstarling

Just remember, there are no jobs in studios really. Certainly not anywhere near the demand. Either build a reputation and start your own or look outside of the studio, there's a lot more out there than just studio work. TV, Film, Games, live recording, live engineering, research, CSound, its an endless field this thing we call sound. Don't limit yourself.

Troyad21

Aridstarling wrote: »

Another different perspective and probably not something you're interested in but I'm in NUI Maynooth doing the Music Technology course. Its combined with an arts subject and you don't really get as much time as you might in Pulse and the like but for a more scientific or academic future in the industry as opposed to just another fader pusher then I doubt it can be beat. It is geared quite a lot towards post-grads and the facilities for that level of research and development are excellent and some of the staff are very well regarded in their fields.

It probably wont suit you if you're looking to just get some teaching on general audio engineering but if you're interested in something a little more out there and progressive its pretty excellent. You do get the bonus of an extra subject too and I'm really enjoying the English course.

I've looked into Universities and Ballyfermot and that but the main problem I have is I work full time so I really need to do something Part Time for the time being.I'm not just interested in the music side to things.I'm interested in all aspects of sound. Games, Film , TV, Radio I'd take and learn whatever I could.
Thanks for your input too.

TelePaul

Troyad21 wrote: »

Cheers for the input man.
I've learnt a bit myself through the internet and also just trial and error.
I'm handy enough with Logic Express at this stage so planning on upgrading to the new Pro version soon enough.I already have a decent enough home setup for what I do so that's not a problem.To be honest I'm probably over equipped for going into a course, haha. I got Pro Tools 8 as part of a studio bundle a few months back but havent really used it as I'm hooked on Logic purely for the easy use and access to MIDI editing and a lot of virtual instruments.The way I see it is, I'm never gonna get in the door of any studio without the piece of paper to say I'm not gonna wreck the place if you let me near a mixing desk or any other expensive piece of kit, its a bit like a safe pass on a building site I reckon, haha.I know its a lot of money but I'm hoping its worth it in the long run plus I'll never know if I don't give it a go.
I just want to get as much info and opinions as possible before I make up my mind on where or what to do.
Thanks again though I really appreciate your input.

Ah right, was actually wondering after I posted whether you'd experimented with the usual computer/interface set-up, good stuff! I guess the issue then is finding a course suited to your ability. This is something that I've been thinking about myself. I'm not the best behind a mixing desk - as the lads here will testify! - but I'd know to track between -18 and -12 dbs for instance, I know what digital clipping is, I know how a sampler works, Midi, etc etc. So spending six months learning about how a microphone works seems like a bit of a waste of time to me.

I know what you're saying about the piece of paper. My personal aspirations amount to owning/managing/running my own studio and having someone else engineer, so it suits me to pick stuff up as I go, invest a bit of cash when I have it, and enjoy it. It's like anything else, the classroom can only take you so far.

Troyad21

TelePaul wrote: »

Ah right, was actually wondering after I posted whether you'd experimented with the usual computer/interface set-up, good stuff! I guess the issue then is finding a course suited to your ability. This is something that I've been thinking about myself. I'm not the best behind a mixing desk - as the lads here will testify! - but I'd know to track between -18 and -12 dbs for instance, I know what digital clipping is, I know how a sampler works, Midi, etc etc. So spending six months learning about how a microphone works seems like a bit of a waste of time to me.

I know what you're saying about the piece of paper. My personal aspirations amount to owning/managing/running my own studio and having someone else engineer, so it suits me to pick stuff up as I go, invest a bit of cash when I have it, and enjoy it. It's like anything else, the classroom can only take you so far.

Haha, no I actually have put a fair bit of cash into my setup already even though I'm only doing it a few months. I'm one of these people that just get so into things I like that even if I dont really need it I'll still go out and buy it just to have it, haha.I make myself broke but I still enjoy it too, haha.
Thanks anyway man.

flyswatter

Just to let you know Troyad, theres a new Music Production course in Dundalk Institute of Technology starting next year. Apparently they're moving the whole music department into new premises. Thinking of doing it myself.

PaulBrewer

Troyad21 wrote: »

Like you said Paul "that increasingly rare opportunity"....
Its probably going to be even rarer if you don't have the paper to prove what you can do?!?!

You would think ....

However thats well down the list of requirements and if you've read some of the threads on this subject before you'll see that it can even impede progress.

My experience would be that most studio guys I know would love someone who'll give a hand - however good Assistants, like good engineers, are rare.

To put it into a word it's 'Attitude'.

A Bad one will negate all the A+s in the highest exams.
A Good One will open all the doors that are available.


The Most Important thing to remember is that NO College leaves you a complete rounded engineer.

You can be a great engineer without a 'formal' education.
You can't be a great engineer without experience.

PaulBrewer

TelePaul wrote: »

but I'd know to track between -18 and -12 dbs for instance,

Ask Tweaky about that one ...

gaerjunkie

HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOUR MAN WHO SPENT THE TUITION FEE ON A HOME SETUP THATS WHAT I DID. LATER I FOUND OUT ABOUT FAS RUN COURSE IN TRALEE WHICH YOU ACTUALLY GET PAID FOR (DOLE).
VERY GOOD COURSE HANDS ON AND THAT WHICH IS GOOD.
IF I WAS PAYING BIG MONEY FOR A COURSE I WOULD GO TO ENGLAND OR AMERICA WHERE THE STANDARD IS HIGHER OR FOR ALOT LESS MONEY COME TO GALWAY AND TAKE MY COURSE AND WITH THE MONEY LEFT OVER BUY SOME GEAR AND START RECORDING.
I THOUGHT I KNEW ALOT ABOUT RECORDING AFTER I D DONE THE COURSE BUT REALLY IT WAS ONLY WHEN I STARTED WORKING IN A COMERICAL STUDIO THAT I STARTED TO GET BETTER OR SHOULD I SAY LEARNT WHAT YOU SHOULDNT DO.
THE ONLY WAY TO LEARN IS DO, MAKE MISTAKES AND DONT REPEAT THEM

Suite

TelePaul wrote: »

- but I'd know to track between -18 and -12 dbs for instance,

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Ask Tweaky about that one ...

-6dBFS to -3dBFS loud and proud! and two "e's" in tweeky thank you.

Mars Bar

gaerjunkie wrote: »

HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOUR MAN WHO SPENT THE TUITION FEE ON A HOME SETUP THATS WHAT I DID. LATER I FOUND OUT ABOUT FAS RUN COURSE IN TRALEE WHICH YOU ACTUALLY GET PAID FOR (DOLE).
VERY GOOD COURSE HANDS ON AND THAT WHICH IS GOOD.
IF I WAS PAYING BIG MONEY FOR A COURSE I WOULD GO TO ENGLAND OR AMERICA WHERE THE STANDARD IS HIGHER OR FOR ALOT LESS MONEY COME TO GALWAY AND TAKE MY COURSE AND WITH THE MONEY LEFT OVER BUY SOME GEAR AND START RECORDING.
I THOUGHT I KNEW ALOT ABOUT RECORDING AFTER I D DONE THE COURSE BUT REALLY IT WAS ONLY WHEN I STARTED WORKING IN A COMERICAL STUDIO THAT I STARTED TO GET BETTER OR SHOULD I SAY LEARNT WHAT YOU SHOULDNT DO.
THE ONLY WAY TO LEARN IS DO, MAKE MISTAKES AND DONT REPEAT THEM

Yeah we hear yeah! :P

You can cool down on the capitals there a bit, it hurts the eyes!

PaulBrewer

gaerjunkie wrote: »

IF I WAS PAYING BIG MONEY FOR A COURSE I WOULD GO TO ENGLAND OR AMERICA WHERE THE STANDARD IS HIGHER

Based on what evidence Gaer ?

TelePaul

Suite wrote: »

-6dBFS to -3dBFS loud and proud! and two "e's" in tweeky thank you.

For percussion, yah, -6, no probs...everything else, -12 to -18!

TelePaul

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Ask Tweaky about that one ...

Who's he?

BumbleB

Troyad21 wrote: »

Haha, no I actually have put a fair bit of cash into my setup already even though I'm only doing it a few months. I'm one of these people that just get so into things I like that even if I dont really need it I'll still go out and buy it just to have it, haha.I make myself broke but I still enjoy it too, haha.
Thanks anyway man.

You said that you were only doing it a few months.Keep at it, in a years time you will probably feel different about feeling the need for a part time course. Read up on it a subscription to sound on sound is a step in the right direction and look for tutorials on the web , also at the start you feel a bit overwhelemed by the technicality but it becomes second nature the main thing is to hone your ear ( by practise ) listening tp mixwes on your monitors of choice .Really good producers are just people with great ears for music.

tweeky

TelePaul wrote: »

For percussion, yah, -6, no probs...everything else, -12 to -18!

I disagree, hit it hotter and when mixing in the analogue domain i get a better signal to noise on an external channel. I think it sounds better.
Is all this -18 a Bob Katz thing?

TelePaul

tweeky wrote: »

I disagree, hit it hotter and when mixing in the analogue domain i get a better signal to noise on an external channel. I think it sounds better.
Is all this -18 a Bob Katz thing?

Nope, just seems to crop up everywhere. Though nothing I have is analogue, so go figure! It seems to make sense though when you compare the metering advice afforded by the manuals that accompany any low-budget USB interface!

studiorat

flyswatter wrote: »

Just to let you know Troyad, theres a new Music Production course in Dundalk Institute of Technology starting next year. Apparently they're moving the whole music department into new premises. Thinking of doing it myself.

That's going to be great. I've seen the plans for the design, 6 control rooms around one main recording area. Workstation booths everywhere, performance areas, dubbing theatres the lot. 30 million spent on it and about 6 years late...
The staff are top notch too.

Datastudios

Hey Troyad,

This might be of interest to you. Introductory 5 day intensive course.

http://www.datarecordingstudios.com/courses.htm

madtheory

tweeky wrote: »

I disagree, hit it hotter and when mixing in the analogue domain i get a better signal to noise on an external channel. I think it sounds better.
Is all this -18 a Bob Katz thing?

It's -18dBFS= 0VU. Only applies when tracking, not mixing! It's not a Bob Katz thing, it's how the actual line level voltages line up. The original Sony PCM digital recorders were lined up that way. It's when ADATs with Mackies came out that everyone got confused. Mackie edged their 0VU down towards the noise floor, and the resolution of the ADAT converters was not great. So the desk is clipping slightly all the time, while we tried to use as many bits as possible.

Good point on percussion, that should probably peak at -6dBFS alright.

PaulBrewer

Datastudios wrote: »

Hey Troyad,

This might be of interest to you. Introductory 5 day intensive course.

http://www.datarecordingstudios.com/courses.htm

Advertising outside of the commercial forum ? This place is gone to da dawgs ...;)

studiorat

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Advertising outside of the commercial forum ? This place is gone to da dawgs ...;)

These noobs... Just don't have a clue do they?

What sort of a course would it be if the fella can't even read the charter?:o