Which is the Best Law Firm?

Sarahaw

Of the Top Firms which one do you think is the best?? For me I think its prob AC followed by MOP, A&L, WF and then maybe Maples but Im not really sure why I feel that way especially since MOP seem to pay their trainees the least of the Big 4/5.

Does anyone else have preferences between these firms and if so why...

obviously any of us would be really luck to get interviews and offers from ANY of these firms so can we not go there please!!:)

Also does anyone have any info about Maples? they say they pay the highest but I heard that they're not meant to be great to work for?!?

Mrs.QC

Sarahaw wrote: »

Of the Top Firms which one do you think is the best?? For me I think its prob AC followed by MOP, A&L, WF and then maybe Maples but Im not really sure why I feel that way especially since MOP seem to pay their trainees the least of the Big 4/5.

Does anyone else have preferences between these firms and if so why...

obviously any of us would be really luck to get interviews and offers from ANY of these firms so can we not go there please!!:)

Also does anyone have any info about Maples? they say they pay the highest but I heard that they're not meant to be great to work for?!?

You've left out McCannFitz completely?

Goodbody's have won firm of the year for Ireland in this year "The Lawyer" magazine awards. However, I'd still say that AC/McCann Fitz top the pile.
Maples have yet to live up to all of their talk--time will tell.

Tom Young

Warning: If posters come on here to vent as a result of the OPs post the thread will be locked and deleted.

Tester46

Tom Young wrote: »

Warning: If posters come on here to vent as a result of the OPs post the thread will be locked and deleted.

What do you mean by "the best"? Do you mean the biggest? The highest turnover? The most M&A deals? The best to be an apprentice in? The best apprentice salary?

Remember that as an apprentice (where you are learning your trade) oftentimes it is more beneficial to train in a small to medium-size firm where out of necessity you will be involved in real legal work. There is a risk (although not always the case by any means) that an apprenticeship in one of the large commercial firms will mean being a dogsbody on whatever big case your department is working on. Not necessarily a rounded education which will set you up for your legal career.

P.S. I have just read your post again. It is a bit diappointing that your focus seems to be on salary. Very short sighted. Consider the quality and range of training also when deciding what firm is "best".

Dante09

Tester46 wrote: »

What do you mean by "the best"? Do you mean the biggest? The highest turnover? The most M&A deals? The best to be an apprentice in? The best apprentice salary?

Remember that as an apprentice (where you are learning your trade) oftentimes it is more beneficial to train in a small to medium-size firm where out of necessity you will be involved in real legal work. There is a risk (although not always the case by any means) that an apprenticeship in one of the large commercial firms will mean being a dogsbody on whatever big case your department is working on. Not necessarily a rounded education which will set you up for your legal career.

P.S. I have just read your post again. It is a bit diappointing that your focus seems to be on salary. Very short sighted. Consider the quality and range of training also when deciding what firm is "best".

Each of the big 5 has its own strengths and weaknesses, just see the tier tables on the legal 500 or chambers and partners. I'll say no more on this.
What I will say is that any time there is a discussion solely on large corporate firms on this forum, somebody ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS comes along to highlight that an apprenticeship in a smaller firm "may be more beneficial". Im trying very hard to refrain from using abusive language here but Tester46 can you please bugger off or stay on topic. The thread is about large corporate firms. Not necessarily apprenticeships, not small firms and not on the differences between doing apprenticeships in large and small firms. Im sure most people posting on this forum are smart enough to at least realize the differences in training in either type of firm. Now cop on and pause the broken record.

Sarahaw

I'll second that Dante!!....Furthermore Tester I didnt focus on the salary at all! I merely mentioned it in relation to Maples as it is clearly used as a selling point by the firm if you took the time to visit their website you'd know this... I also touched on the fact that I had heard they dont have a very supportive enviornment and I was hoping that I could get some views on this....

Anyway, with regard to the salary questions, I really dont see the problem with a prospective trainee wanting to know which firm offers the best compensation, surely its a legitimate factor to take into consideration albeit not a decisive one?

The reason I didnt mention McCanns is because I heard they're not hiring trainees this year and they have delayed the incoming intake by two years, I saw that on rollonfriday so you can correct me if Im wrong.

Tester46

Dante09 wrote: »

Im trying very hard to refrain from using abusive language here but Tester46 can you please bugger off or stay on topic.

That's helpful. If you have an issue, maybe raise it with the moderator rather than posting an abusive message? Just a thought.

I was simply giving an opinion, and I did clearly ask the OP to clarify what s/he meant in his/her first post by "best". If you are a lawyer (or maybe a student?) I would expect you to read carefully before posting.

That said, the OP is clearly unhappy with my contribution so I'll leave it at that. Best of luck and may s/he obtain a highly paid apprenticeship in a "top" law firm (or maybe even the "best" law firm):)

MrMicra

Dante09 wrote: »

The thread is about large corporate firms. Not necessarily apprenticeships, not small firms and not on the differences between doing apprenticeships in large and small firms.

In general terms the original post sets what the 'thread is about'. I would suggest that you reread the original post.
By the way Sarahaw if you have a firm offer from MOPs, Coxs and Goodbody's I congratulate you.

Thirdfox

Sarahaw wrote: »

I'll second that Dante!!....Furthermore Tester I didnt focus on the salary at all! I merely mentioned it in relation to Maples as it is clearly used as a selling point by the firm if you took the time to visit their website you'd know this... I also touched on the fact that I had heard they dont have a very supportive enviornment and I was hoping that I could get some views on this....

Anyway, with regard to the salary questions, I really dont see the problem with a prospective trainee wanting to know which firm offers the best compensation, surely its a legitimate factor to take into consideration albeit not a decisive one?

The reason I didnt mention McCanns is because I heard they're not hiring trainees this year and they have delayed the incoming intake by two years, I saw that on rollonfriday so you can correct me if Im wrong.

Not entirely true.

Personally I put it as AC and McCanns - jointly first - different specialisations. My friends liked MOP but I had a bad experience with them. WF has dropped out of the top tier of law firms from what I gather and A&L...I've never looked into them that much.

And yes, salaries are one of the things I consider when deciding on an offer or applying to a firm. Just wish I could have got a summer internship in the US (2800-3500 dollars a week )

nuac

I agree with the views expressed by Tester46. There are many highly rated firms outside the "top five".

legal eagle 1

There are many highly rated firms outside the "top five".

As a person in the profession yourself, who would you consider to be a highly rated firm outside of the top 5.

I'm shocked by the focus placed on salaries here by some prospective trainees, I think in the current climate and the current state of the legal profession, it is not something you should be so heavily focused on. Yes, salary is important but, i'd rather first off secure a contract! and than focus on the quality of the training provided as opposed to the wage packet at the end of the month!!

dee8839

As someone in the throes of the depression that is the task of obtaining a traineeship in a large-ish Irish law firm, I am amazed that someone is actually concerned in any way with salary. In my opinion, big 5 firm or beyond, your traineeship is, if nothing else (though hopefully not merely) a means to an end. If the firm pays for your Blackhalls as well as paying you, thats fantastic. Who cares how well they pay you?!! At least you will get to be a qualified solicitor, something increasingly difficult since it is now so hard to find any traineeship at all.

I'm not saying the OP is obsessed with salary, I acknowledge they were just using that as one of the criteria to be considered should someone be offered more than one firm, but just making the point that no-one in legal circles should look a gift horse in the mouth - when it comes to a big firm they all have plenty to offer.

God, if I get a firm in Bally-go-backwards to take me on, I'll take it and appreciate it at this stage!! But just based on personal experience through college presentations, etc. I found Arthur Cox to be very pleasant people and A&L to be a tad bit dry. But I would never base any opinion on the personality of a few representatives.

If you are asking because you are one of the lucky elite with your pick of firms, maybe you should ask yourself which one gives you the best chance of choosing your rotations, or gives you the most rotations. The more experience you get the better IMO. I'd place that above salary.

And rant over. Sorry. LLM getting to me I guess...:(

legal eagle 1

dee8839 wrote: »

As someone in the throes of the depression that is the task of obtaining a traineeship in a large-ish Irish law firm, I am amazed that someone is actually concerned in any way with salary. In my opinion, big 5 firm or beyond, your traineeship is, if nothing else (though hopefully not merely) a means to an end. If the firm pays for your Blackhalls as well as paying you, thats fantastic. Who cares how well they pay you?!! At least you will get to be a qualified solicitor, something increasingly difficult since it is now so hard to find any traineeship at all.

I'm not saying the OP is obsessed with salary, I acknowledge they were just using that as one of the criteria to be considered should someone be offered more than one firm, but just making the point that no-one in legal circles should look a gift horse in the mouth - when it comes to a big firm they all have plenty to offer.

God, if I get a firm in Bally-go-backwards to take me on, I'll take it and appreciate it at this stage!! But just based on personal experience through college presentations, etc. I found Arthur Cox to be very pleasant people and A&L to be a tad bit dry. But I would never base any opinion on the personality of a few representatives.

If you are asking because you are one of the lucky elite with your pick of firms, maybe you should ask yourself which one gives you the best chance of choosing your rotations, or gives you the most rotations. The more experience you get the better IMO. I'd place that above salary.

And rant over. Sorry. LLM getting to me I guess...:(

+1 Well said

Aprilsunshine

In terms of the best big firm to work for it really depends on the vibe of the firm. I work for a big 5 firm and love it - but a good part of that is based on the atmosphere and the people I work with.

It also depends on the area you want to specialise in, for example MOP have a well known competition dept, McCanns are known for litigation and are retained by other law firms to represent them (most recently Arthur Cox in a recent action reported in the Irish Times and MOP in employment matters) & William Fry have in financial terms had the most merger action this year apparently with US/Asian/UK deals.

At the end of the day the difference in salaries between my friends in other big 5 firms and I is a couple of hundred euro a month or less.

Also worth noting that you are unlikely to remain at the one firm for your entire career so choose one you think does a good training programme, suited to you.

murrayp4

Are there any well-known small/medium/large firms that do criminal work too??

Thirdfox

dee8839 wrote: »

As someone in the throes of the depression that is the task of obtaining a traineeship in a large-ish Irish law firm, I am amazed that someone is actually concerned in any way with salary. In my opinion, big 5 firm or beyond, your traineeship is, if nothing else (though hopefully not merely) a means to an end. If the firm pays for your Blackhalls as well as paying you, thats fantastic. Who cares how well they pay you?!! At least you will get to be a qualified solicitor, something increasingly difficult since it is now so hard to find any traineeship at all.

Sorry to hear about your situation but I think it's unfair to say that people shouldn't care about payment. Conversely, as the top 4 are often so close in terms of expertise and training, salary differences and perks can be the deciding factor (AC gives a 5000(?) euro bursary for you to spend in further education - something I look on as an attractive incentive - and something that demonstrates their willingness to invest in their trainees/solicitors). Less about the cash, but more about how that reflects the ethos of the firm.

I'm not saying the OP is obsessed with salary, I acknowledge they were just using that as one of the criteria to be considered should someone be offered more than one firm, but just making the point that no-one in legal circles should look a gift horse in the mouth - when it comes to a big firm they all have plenty to offer.

I don't think we should be afraid of firms, if you believe that you are valuable this will be reflected in how firms see you too. The school of thought that people are "lucky" to get offers can be misleading - they want you because they think you can offer them something of value. Similarly, they should offer you something of value in return - whether that be monetary, educational, job satisfaction etc.

If you are asking because you are one of the lucky elite with your pick of firms, maybe you should ask yourself which one gives you the best chance of choosing your rotations, or gives you the most rotations. The more experience you get the better IMO. I'd place that above salary.

And rant over. Sorry. LLM getting to me I guess...:(

In my opinion the people maketh the firm - a firm can be brilliant on paper and statistics, but sometimes it can be horrid as a workplace (horrid may be too harsh a word to use). Once you find that you can work with the people (and they can stand you ) that's half the decision made.

After that - rotations, education method, salary etc are all very important cherries on top of my "people" sundae

If I had multiple offers I'd first ask myself - "which firm would I enjoy working in?" After that, it'd have to be a very exciting remuneration package that could tempt me away from my original decision.

shaneybaby

murrayp4 wrote: »

Are there any well-known small/medium/large firms that do criminal work too??

if you can get in to frank buttimers office in cork. Not sure about the rest of the country. I'm sure dublin has a fair few specialists.

Mrs.QC

Sarahaw, reading your posts here and on the other thread, considering you have several offers in the bag already, what would be your preferred firm?
Have you considered UK firms?

Sarahaw

Im undecided as to my fav firm in Dub...maybe AC.

Yes Ive considered the UK as an option but when I consider that id be moving over to London alone im not so sure if it'd be the best option.

What about you?

Mrs.QC

I have a big 5 contract from last year but will be applying to london firms in spring nonetheless

legal eagle 1

Mrs.QC wrote: »

I have a big 5 contract from last year but will be applying to london firms in spring nonetheless

Do you mind me asking why, seen as you have already secured a contract?

Mrs.QC

Unfortunately, Ive been deferred for a year so in the meantime, there's no harm in trying as I dont particularly like Dublin and would prefer London. I did the extra UK modules in college so i wont have to do the GDL either. If I happen to be lucky enough to get a London firm, id be starting at the same time as id be starting my irish contract so time wise, it makes no difference. What about you legal eagle?

Sarahaw

Ya I wouldnt say that ive fully ruled it out yet either. There are positives and neg to going to london.

Do you think would it be much harder to get in over there coming from ireland?....I refering to the MC firms, i presume thats what youre refering to also

legal eagle 1

To be truthful I'd be happy with any type of training contract offer at this stage. I was just shocked that someone who had secured one would be seeking another one but, I can understand your reasons! I don't have any of the English modules that are needed done so, I feel it be a step backwards for me at this stage. That said I did look into applying for the English firms and there are websites that give you a full list of the firms recruiting and you send all your applications off from one site, way easier than the Irish way!

Mrs.QC

Sarahaw I dont think its harder for us tbh. I had an interview with Clifford Chance last year (suffice to say, I didnt get it) and several of my friends had interviews with Freshfields, however I only know ONE person who actually ended up getting an offer from my group of friends and that was with a Silver Circle firm.
Its very competitive over there, but not more so than over here.

Thirdfox

legal eagle 1 wrote: »

To be truthful I'd be happy with any type of training contract offer at this stage. I was just shocked that someone who had secured one would be seeking another one but, I can understand your reasons! I don't have any of the English modules that are needed done so, I feel it be a step backwards for me at this stage. That said I did look into applying for the English firms and there are websites that give you a full list of the firms recruiting and you send all your applications off from one site, way easier than the Irish way!

I think many people are in the (lucky) position to have been offered many contracts - and it is only natural for people to seek the best deal possible for their individual circumstances and requirements.

As for the UK - I'm still deciding if I want to open that can of worms - I can still change my course to provide a pass through the GDL, but truth be told, I like living in Ireland (lived in China, UK, Ireland, US). We'll all end up in the EU megastate eventually anyway

And I know friends of mine who are going to MC London firms - so it's definitely do-able.

legal eagle 1

I think many people are in the (lucky) position to have been offered many contracts - and it is only natural for people to seek the best deal possible for their individual circumstances and requirements.

Absolutely agree, wasn't critical of that at all, was just surprised.

Sarahaw

I'd be really grateful if someone could carify what additional modules are needed to skip through the GDL?

Is it just Civil Liberities. I know there is a thing about Eng Land Law but since Irish Land Law is basically all established by Eng precedent surely it suffices?

Any help would be great.

Mrs.QC

No, you need English Land Law and Admin Law

Chiarrai1

What is that name of that website that sends off all of your info to english law firms instead of havingto apply indiviually?

Mrs.QC

cvmail.co.uk

Sangre

Mrs.QC wrote: »

Sarahaw I dont think its harder for us tbh. I had an interview with Clifford Chance last year (suffice to say, I didnt get it) and several of my friends had interviews with Freshfields, however I only know ONE person who actually ended up getting an offer from my group of friends and that was with a Silver Circle firm.
Its very competitive over there, but not more so than over here.

If I could do it again I definitely would have applied to English firms as well. Although I would not necessarily have taken it. I know plenty of people who got offers, a few who got no Irish offers. I think I probably would have got something from England.

Johnny Utah

Sue, Grabbit & Runn- they're based on the quays!