National Press - Pistol Appeals [read MOD NOTICE in post #6 before posting!]

Terrier

Today's Irish Independent

Marksman appeals refusal of gun licences

By Ralph Riegel
Tuesday November 17 2009

AN award-winning marksman said a garda decision to refuse him licences for six high-powered competition handguns was like asking Padraig Harrington to tee off in the US Masters with a hurley.
Patrick Herlihy -- a captain of Ireland's precision pistol team -- yesterday appealed to Cork District Court against the refusal by Garda Chief Superintendent Michael Finn to renew his firearms licences.
The appeal is effectively a test case for hundreds of Irish gun owners who face losing handguns under Justice Minister Dermot Ahern's new crackdown on gun licences.
The Firearms Act enacted last August effectively banned all handguns and short-barrelled weapons with the exception of Olympic competition .22 calibre guns.
Mr Herlihy -- a respected businessman -- said yesterday he could not understand how gardai had no problem granting him licences for four years, but now suddenly regarded the weapons as a potential threat.
Gardai stressed the licence refusals were not a personal reflection on Mr Herlihy, but the enforcement of new laws.
Mr Herlihy told Judge Dave Riordan that all six guns were essential to enable him to compete in various EGRF/World Association 1500 precision pistol competitions.
Judge Riordan directed that written submissions be made on Monday and he reserved judgment on the matter until November 30.

Jonty

Best of luck to the man

marlin vs

Exelent this is after coming up a lot faster than I thought it would, hopefully the judge will see sense.

sfakiaman

Hopefully we will all know where we stand by early December.

rrpc

sfakiaman wrote: »

Hopefully we will all know where we stand by early December.

Don't expect someone else's District Court appeal to have any bearing on another one unless it's to the same District Court Judge. The DC is not a court of record so each case will stand on its own merits.

Rovi

It should go without saying, but I'll say it anyway:

EVERYONE: be very careful what you say and post in public on this (or any other) case.

We're all naturally consumed with curiosity and want to know how this and other upcoming cases are progressing, but we must constantly bear in mind that while they are before the courts ('sub judice'), we absolutely must not write or state anything in the public domain that might interfere with the due process of the case.

The mods here will very much err on the side of caution in this regard, so please don't be surprised to see threads on the subject being heavily pruned or edited.


/thread reopened

daveob007

Terrier wrote: »

Today's Irish Independent

the word WEAPON crops up yet again SPORTING FIREARMS is the correct term for our equipment.

rowa

fingers crossed for him and his case .

Greenacre

The printed version of the report is a bit more detailed than the online version.

kowloon

weap·on (wpn)
n.
1. An instrument of attack or defense in combat, as a gun, missile, or sword.
2. Zoology A part or organ, such as a claw or stinger, used by an animal in attack or defense.
3. A means used to defend against or defeat another: Logic was her weapon.
tr.v. weap·oned, weap·on·ing, weap·ons
To supply with weapons or a weapon; arm.

meathstevie

Best of luck Mr Herlihy, I hope you can convince the judge of your credentials and the caracter of your sport.

Sikamick

Best of luck Pat with your case.

Sikamick

Cass

I wish Patrick Herlihy and all those unfortunate enough to be placed in this postition the very best, and hope for the outcome you so rightly deserve.



[MOD NOTE]
Post edited following thread split.

Rovi

Lots of thread-drift split off into a new thread.

Carry on.

ivanthehunter

Best of luck to pat!


I would have done it too if i had the funds:D but then again thats the issue here- the common man is at a financial disadvantage with our legal system being so prohibitively expensive.. and the fat cats in kildare street know this all too well...

Thank god that some shooters are business men too!

rrpc

ivanthehunter wrote: »

Best of luck to pat!


I would have done it too if i had the funds:D

Were you refused a licence Ivan?

knockon

ivanthehunter wrote: »

Best of luck to pat!


I would have done it too if i had the funds:D but then again thats the issue here- the common man is at a financial disadvantage with our legal system being so prohibitively expensive.. and the fat cats in kildare street know this all too well...

Thank god that some shooters are business men too!

Ivan - I can assure you that Pats action is only one of many. I have already taken similar steps and I have already put the wheels in motion.

Tricky1127

We all have a licence for a FIREARM be it a rifle or shotgun and even a pistol.
When i went to school a Weapon was something that could be used to hurt/kill an other person ie: a stolen car, bread knife, a rock, you get the idea, we use our firearms for target-hunting-sporting that is all.
PS. i've two weapons my vote and a pen

Grizzly 45

Hope it goes well for you Pat!
This reminds me of a quote of Churchill

If you will not fight for when you can easily win without bloodshed;if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly;you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival.There may even be a worse case.You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory,because it is better to perish than live enslaved.

I pray that it will be for Pat, and ultimately for us all a situation of the first two instances. May justice and not politics prevail.
BTW is anyone going to support him at the Court house??

happyjack

Best of luck to Pat, fair play to you for going the distance and not letting them walk over our us.

Samson

D-day today.
Anyone on here know/in contact with Pat to get the result?

love to shoot

just heard he lost no details

CJhaughey

Thats bad news..

demonloop

Its worse than bad news, its quite unbelievable. Beggars belief.

To keep in line with the Mods guidlines when posting, the Garda/Legal system seems to be a load of <snipped by DL :mad:>

Sparks

A loss in the DC isn't the end of the road. Next step would be a CC appeal, and the HC after that, you'd presume.

supermac

hi to all, just to update you all on today,s events at the district court in Cork, Mr. Pat Herlihy, senior, was unsuccessful in his bid to obtain his gun licences, as you can imagine this doesn,t bode well for the rest of us looking to pursue our target shooting hobby. We wish him the best of luck if he decides to appeal the decision at the next level.

murph226

My meeting with the CS was put off yet again until tomorrow night,he must be out celebrating:rolleyes:

Sparks

Sparks wrote: »

A loss in the DC isn't the end of the road. Next step would be a CC appeal, and the HC after that, you'd presume.

I think that whatever the outcome, appeal to the CC was always going to be the next step.

Cass

Gutted for him, absolutely gutted. If he pursues it to the next level i wish him all the best.

Tricky1127

I'm so sorry to hear that Mr P Herlihy Snr was unlucky today and that he knows that we're all behind him and hope he keeps on fighting for his pass time (target shooting)
Regards T

Blazher

Sparks wrote: »

A loss in the DC isn't the end of the road. Next step would be a CC appeal, and the HC after that, you'd presume.

Thats going to cost.

I think a fund of some type would be good. As we all know its all of our interest for this to get its full day in court!

meathshooter

Blazher wrote: »

Thats going to cost.

I think a fund of some type would be good. As we all know its all of our interest for this to get its full day in court!

this will probably go all the way to the high court and above didn't really expect much from the district court anyway my sympathies to pat Its gutting whats been done. a true sportsman and law abiding citizen been told you cant continue in your chosen sport what is becoming of this country and whats next.there are details of a fund on the nasrpc web site.

rrpc

meathshooter wrote: »

this will probably go all the way to the high court and above didn't really expect much from the district court anyway my sympathies to pat Its gutting whats been done. a true sportsman and law abiding citizen been told you cant continue in your chosen sport what is becoming of this country and whats next.there are details of a fund on the nasrpc web site.

To be fair, that's a personal decision Pat has to make, he's not some sort of stalking horse for the rest of us. There are issues of personal privacy involved in being the first one to take such a case and it's his decision as to whether he wants to subject himself and his family to that level of public scrutiny.

bunny shooter

Tough call, for anyone tbh

bunny shooter

Do/can we know the reason/s for the refusal? I would have thought he had a very good case tbh

deerhunter1

rrpc wrote: »

Don't expect someone else's District Court appeal to have any bearing on another one unless it's to the same District Court Judge. The DC is not a court of record so each case will stand on its own merits.

correct and right will only apply to the individual or other cases that come under the same judge,needs to be a high court case

supermac

bunny shooter wrote: »

Do/can we know the reason/s for the refusal? I would have thought he had a very good case tbh

it was a Very complicated issue, too long to discuss here.!!!

murph226

supermac wrote: »

it was a Very complicated issue, too long to discuss here.!!!

I've got all day Mac!

bunny shooter

supermac wrote: »

it was a Very complicated issue, too long to discuss here.!!!

Have to wait for the papers version so

Sparks

Merging threads to keep stuff tidier...

tonysopprano

supermac wrote: »

it was a Very complicated issue, too long to discuss here.!!!

Supermac, can you elaborate more (about your use of a capital V, in very)

I think that the grounds of the refusal are very important to us all, can you shed some more lite?

Bananaman

bunny shooter wrote: »

Have to wait for the papers version so

I would take the papers version with a pinch of salt.

Although 'we' may be reticent to discuss our sport or tools in the public arena the Minister will have no such qualms.

We are virtually garaunteed that there will be a few stories primed by the DOJ/Gardai to crow about the Judiciary supporting the Minitsers position and keeping the streets safe for everyone by upholding the decision of Ch. Super such and such.
Our friend in the Indo would be the first one to print what he is handed no doubt.

Whereas a DC decision does not create a precedent in law it could create a trend in decision making. That should, however, not cause people to lose hope. If you take part in Target Shooting, howsoever, with the firearm you seek to re-license, then you have a valid argument - the state, gardai and courts have not yet outlawed target shooting, as a sport. Talk to your club and/or NASRPC to benefit from the group wisdom on these matters.

The case in question was indeed a very good case to bring and I am sure was based on sound and fair argument. He would have fought the good fight and whereas it is of course a personal decision, I have no doubt the good fight will continue.

It does not bode well, particularly for that district, that the argument could not persuade the Judge that our sports are just that - sports - and that our security, vetted by the Gardai and as yet un-breached - is insufficient.

As to the matter of funding. As pointed out by an earlier poster, NASRPC have a pledge fund. You can get details of it from your club or from their website.

B'Man

milkerman

Very sorry to hear of this decision - so bloody unfair and yes the law can be an ass and goes out of it's way to prove the point from time to time.
As a matter of interest, were all the firearms fullbore or did it include any .22 guns?
I have said it before, we just have to wait until we can be rid of this arrogant bunch of *ssholes and hope that the next government are more reasonable. The Gardai's treatment of decent citizens leaves a LOT to be desired also.

bunny shooter

Bananaman wrote: »

I would take the papers version with a pinch of salt............

I will and do

It is a dark day. Very dark indeed.

I surrendered my 9mm a few months ago after getting a nod and a wink from a few people "in the know". Thought that they might be wrong but looks like they were right

The senior Gardai, Supers & Chief Supers are responsible for the current treatment of the shooting community and the courts are backing them up BUT are they just taking orders from their paymaster/s, the minister and/or the civil servants in the DOJ ?

The Clash song that says "I fought the law and the law won" seems appropiate here.

Fighting this new draconian law is not the answer changing or removing it is !!!!!

meathshooter

remember there has been a number of centrefire pistols successfully licensed not many but they have been licensed but are these been done as some sort of strategic ploy by the gardai

BornToKill

bunny shooter wrote: »

The Clash song that says "I fought the law and the law won" seems appropiate here.

It does? Are you sure? 'Robbin' people with a six-gun, I fought the law and the law won'.

Sparks

BornToKill wrote: »

It does? Are you sure? 'Robbin' people with a six-gun, I fought the law and the law won'.

Ah, it's only a six-gun. Nowhere near as dangerous as a nine mm...

rowa

its not fighting the law anyway , its fighting how its being interpreted and enforced , roll on the next general election , i'll be at the polling station door at 7.30 with my card in my hand doing my bit to get rid of this load of offal AHern included .

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Ah, it's only a six-gun. Nowhere near as dangerous as a nine mm...

Yes but you'll have to plug one of the cylinders :rolleyes:

Bananaman

Nobody needs to fight the law.

I own a centrefire pistol - I am not in breach of the law -I never have been - I do not need to fight it.

I still qualify under the new law - I have done no wrong - my firearm has done no wrong.

If I am refused - I will fight the mis-application of the law.

B'Man

BornToKill

rrpc wrote: »

Yes but you'll have to plug one of the cylinders :rolleyes:

Ha Ha!