Converting a Merc W123 to diesel.

Dermo123

Anyone know if there is someone in Cork or even Munster that could do this conversion. I have a 1991 190D 2.0 litre engine that is top notch. I would like to drop this into a w123 reasonably good bodyshell but not sure how viable it is as a conversion. There are guys in the UK that do it but I would prefer to find someone locally that knows what they are at. Any recommendations?

junkyard

I think you'd need to go for a bigger engine for a 123 Merc Dermot, I remember the 200 with a 2 litre engine and they were gutless. I'd go for the 300 turbo diesel engine as your at it, if the car is vintage road tax won't be an issue. The turbo diesel engine was only available in Germany and north America iirc and was so good Mercedes-Benz used to buy them back to recondition them. You should ring Kevin Lomasney, he's in the phone book, he'll tell you everything you need to know and might even do a conversion for you.

Dermo123

I was talking to a guy in England who does Merc conversions and he has done some using this engine, and it works quite well according to him. Most of them end up back in Ireland he says. Anyway I have a choice of either doing the bodywork on the 190 in which this engine is already, (its the one I drove out to you in a few weeks ago) or else finding 30+ year Merc that my mechanical bits will slot into. I have not made up my mind yet just trying to see what is the best thing to do....

Seweryn

Dermo123 wrote: »

Anyone know if there is someone in Cork or even Munster that could do this conversion. I have a 1991 190D 2.0 litre engine that is top notch. I would like to drop this into a w123 reasonably good bodyshell but not sure how viable it is as a conversion. There are guys in the UK that do it but I would prefer to find someone locally that knows what they are at. Any recommendations?

Your plan is not the easiest one to achieve...
Firstly, you are trying to fit an engine which was never designed to that body - the OM601 engine is the next generation machine. It would be better to find a good OM616 (from a 240D) and try from there. The reason is that the cylinders in OM601 in W201 (190D) are on a 15 degree slant to the right instead of vertically arranged as in the OM-61X engines.
Secondly, you are going to fit a diesel engine into the petrol engined body and so you will need much more than just the engine, but the most important are as follows:
- Differential unit with final drive, but not necessary really, as the ratio was sililar in 200 and 200D (you may need another donor car which is a W123 200D, 220D or 240D),
- Speedometer from the same donor model as the differential unit,
- Ignition barrel with vacuum installation to start / stop the engine,
- Glow plug control unit with power supply installation (possibly can be adopted from the W201),
- I am not sure about the gearbox, but the starter motor in OM601 is on the other side than in the OM615 / OM616), so you may need the gearbox from the 190D,
- If you fit the gearbox from 190D to your W123 then you may have to change the drive shaft (or cut, weld and re-balance it, if the gearbox from your W201 is 5-speed and the old gearbox was 4-speed - the 5-speed is longer, so that's why you need a new drive shaft),
- Other miscellaneous...

You can forget about installing the OM603 Turbo - these engines were offered only for the LHD cars for a reason.

There are some people that have done the same conversion you are planning to do, so it is possible. You just need to make sure you have all parts required and plenty of time for some DIY.

Good Luck with the conversion and (just by the way...) please let me know if you have some spares for the W201 (190D). I am looking for the plastic molding under the engine.

MorrisCooper

You could try Mitchells in Kilgarvan. They converted a 250L lwb W123 for me a few years ago using a W123 300D engine.

pmg007

It would be a much easier conversion if your donor car was also a w123. The w123 body would want to be exceptionally good to be worth the bother and expense. Why not sell the 190d and just buy a w123 diesel? The 123 300 turbo diesel was only available in lhd as the steering box on the rhd's gets in the way of the turbo. I know of an '84 texas import lhd w123 300 turbo diesel estate for sale which has a 126bhp engine compared to the 88bhp of the standard 300d.

I have an '83 w123 240 diesel german import one owner lhd for sale.

junkyard

How much are you looking for the 84 Texas import turbo diesel? You can P.M. me the details if you don't mind, thanks.

Dermo123

OK guys thanks for all the replies.

First of all I agree it would be easier and cheaper to just buy a pre 1980 W123 diesel. Two issues with this 1, very little around in good nick. 2, The 240D was not all that econimical and was a bit dead. The 300D maybe a better option. For everyday driving I would prefer RHD so sorry if I don't follow up on those mentioned here.

While I know the OM601 is no ball of fire it is slightly more powerful, a lot more economical and seems to have better torque characteristics than the 240D. It is probably, the last stage of developement that Mercedes did with the normally aspirated indirect injection engine before things started getting overcomplicated with emissions regulations turbos ecu's etc etc. Also it makes a lot less noise and I have one outside in a car that is worth nothing due to the bodywork thats required. I drive it from time to time and it will move along nicely if you drive it the right way.

Now the chap I mentioned earlier that has been doing Merc diesel conversions for the last 26 years tells me they go a bit better in the W123 bodyshell. That may be down to gearing or diff ratios etc but should I care if my speedo is not accurate or not recording the correct mileage for what I am doing? I am not sure either if the economy was affected.
As regards installation he says the engine mountings are the same but he has to offset the engine in some way so as the airfilter stays clear of the inner wing on the W123 body.
Seweryn, what you say as regards the gearbox/propshaft ties in pretty much with what he says.
Mine seems to be missing the plastic moulding as I have full access to the sump plug, is that what you mean??
As regards price he charges £20/hour for his labour. No conversion has taken him more than a week. He reckons about £500 for what I am talking about. Any part he has to buy/make is extra. He is currently fitting a 300SD turbo engine into a petrol w126 bodyshell. He has just finished putting a 300 turbo into a mark 1 Range Rover. If he was in Ireland it would be great.

Also he reckons that Mercedes put out the information that the 250D turbo and 300D turbo will not fit due to the steering box as a bit of a mistruth. He has adapted the exhaust manifold to make it fit RHD cars. So there are RHD turbos out there.

Maybe I should just fix the bodywork on the 190.......

Seweryn

Dermo123 wrote: »

Seweryn, what you say as regards the gearbox/propshaft ties in pretty much with what he says.
Mine seems to be missing the plastic moulding as I have full access to the sump plug, is that what you mean??
Maybe I should just fix the bodywork on the 190.......

That is what I mean - there should be a plastic cover under the engine, which is usually missing, as people are careless and do not put them back in place after a service.

Regarding your 190D - how big job is the bodywork in your car? That may not be any more expensive than the conversion works... The 190D is a great car, I drive one myself and I like it very much. The average fuel economy that my one returns is 50 mpg and the engine seems to be keep on going for ever. Since the summer we covered about 16kkm (10k miles) and the engine used almost no oil (200k miles on the clock).

I would try to repair the 190D if I was you, unless there is a structural damage.

Good Luck.

Dermo123

I have 2 190's. I have one 1988 2.6 petrol with every option available from the factory. So you might ask why don't I put the engine into this? Well it is too good to take the originality of it. It has only covered 90K miles, is automatic and is a flyer. I would prefer to keep this as a weekend car.

As regards my diesel 190 at some stage in the past it got a wallop on the drivers side and the repairs were not good enough and there is a lot of corrosion on the outer sills, jacking points are a bit weak, floor pan on that side is rotten, drivers door needs replacing. roof and all drivers side needs to be resprayed, probably should do the whole car. Passanger (nearside) of car is perfect. They are like two different cars from one side to the other.

Also sitting a bit low at the back and rear subframe mountings need to be replaced (only an issue if car is not driven for a while, rattle seems to go after a few miles). All in all it would end up costing a lot of money as I cannot do it with no garage/workshop (I would definitly have a go if I did). On the plus side the car drives very straight without a shake with good brakes steering, no sound from diff, gears are perfect. Interior has no wear, just a bit grubby. An older body shell 190 in good nick may be a better option as good ones might be easier to find. Its just that if I could get a 30 year old one I would have extremely cheap motoring.....

pmg007

Mercedes 200 diesel reg'd 1/1/80 structurally sound needs a rear panel and a cuple of doors. Good engine. E.650 will buy. No offers. Also have a feb. '80 200dsl auto org. irish reg part stripped. but not as sound as this one.

andy.s

pmg007 , please pm your phone number . Thanks

liammons

Hi, any chance of contact details for the merc mechanic, i have a 1978 w123 280ce that i want to put a 300d engine in to, i have the 300d its totally rotten but the engine is good.

Wicklowandy

*1

Kenny Logins

Is there much to gain by fitting a diesel? They are much slower, but how much more economical?

BTW what are W123 200 petrol engines like, are they a little under powered?

Seweryn

Kenny Logins wrote: »

Is there much to gain by fitting a diesel? They are much slower, but how much more economical?

A Diesel engined W123 is about 30 to 40% more economical than petrol engined, assuming both cars are factory standard.

Kenny Logins wrote: »

BTW what are W123 200 petrol engines like, are they a little under powered?

I do not think they are underpowered. They are still faster than 3-litre Diesels.
The engine itself is not bad, the only criticism I would put towards the mechanicaly controlled fuel injection system (I assume you are asking about the later generation engine, as the earlier models have different engines again).

Kenny Logins

Seweryn wrote: »

I do not think they are underpowered. They are still faster than 3-litre Diesels.
The engine itself is not bad, the only criticism I would put towards the mechanicaly controlled fuel injection system (I assume you are asking about the later generation engine, as the earlier models have different engines again).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_W123#Models_.28except_North_America_and_Japan.29

Oh, for some reason I read it as 80hp, they're actually 108..

Seweryn

Kenny Logins wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_W123#Models_.28except_North_America_and_Japan.29

Oh, for some reason I read it as 80hp, they're actually 108..

Yeah, 109PS is just enough for an old cruiser. The most powerful Diesel was rated at 88PS.

MidlandsM

Kenny Logins wrote: »

Is there much to gain by fitting a diesel? They are much slower, but how much more economical?

yeah, so much so i know of a fella who fitted the old merc engines into relatively new sprinter vans.....cos' the newer sprinter van engines are muck!:pac:

tc20

liammons wrote: »

Hi, any chance of contact details for the merc mechanic, i have a 1978 w123 280ce that i want to put a 300d engine in to, i have the 300d its totally rotten but the engine is good.

i can personally recommend Benjamin Lichtenberg, based near Enniskerry, Co. Wicklow

http://www.lichtenberg-classics.ie/

quenching

tc20 wrote: »

i can personally recommend Benjamin Lichtenberg, based near Enniskerry, Co. Wicklow

http://www.lichtenberg-classics.ie/

Seconded, you won't find better or more honest.

liammons

the 200 engines are a little underpowered but the actual 123 chassisisn't as heavy as you think it is. The 280 engine has plenty of power but its still a big old bus so none of them are exactly sporty.

Does anyone know what manual box will marry up with the om617 300d engine?

iverjohnston

Probably too far away for you, but I find Eric Norton in Ballinalee, Co Longford to be very knowledgeable. Usually has a good selections of donor cars around as well. He has looked after 3 W124's and my current W123 for me, this last 6 years. I have seen a w123 with the 5 cylinder 2.9 Mercedes unit from a Korando. seemed to go really well, but I didn't get to drive it personably. Mack in Cavan

liammons

iverjohnston wrote: »

Probably too far away for you, but I find Eric Norton in Ballinalee, Co Longford to be very knowledgeable. Usually has a good selections of donor cars around as well. He has looked after 3 W124's and my current W123 for me, this last 6 years. I have seen a w123 with the 5 cylinder 2.9 Mercedes unit from a Korando. seemed to go really well, but I didn't get to drive it personably. Mack in Cavan

Thanks Mack,
thats reallyhelpful as im near ballymahon could you pm me directions or a number if you get a chance, or will i find him on 11811?
Thanks
Liam

Do-more

liammons wrote: »

Thanks Mack,
thats reallyhelpful as im near ballymahon could you pm me directions or a number if you get a chance, or will i find him on 11811?
Thanks
Liam

Here ya go, just zoom out to see the location on the map. Take the Ballinalee road out of Edgeworthstown and you can't miss him!

Kenny Logins

This '84 300D popped up on Donedeal yesterday, might make a good donor car for somebody, interior could be nice too.

http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/vintagecars/3902814

8~)

The 200 petrol carb engine in the W123 is adequate - no ball of fire but will keep up with traffic. Performance-wise it's probably about the same as the 300D, though the 300D feels more flexible... from memory, a long time since driving a 300D.

RE: fitting a 300D into a W123 - would a W124 diesel engine be a better (and easier to source) option?

I have a W124 200D with 5 speed box and it's surprisingly adaquate... still undecided whether to renovate the car or use the drivetrain in a W123...

shawnee

Have driven a good view conversions and most are wrong.... I did drive a 123 petrol with a 123 240 diesel conversion and that was the best I had driven. Engine and gearbox were fitted and from that experience it is the only way to go.;)

8~)

shawnee wrote: »

Have driven a good view conversions and most are wrong.... I did drive a 123 petrol with a 123 240 diesel conversion and that was the best I had driven. Engine and gearbox were fitted and from that experience it is the only way to go.;)

I had a 200T fitted with a 240D... it was okay on backroads but on major roads it became tiresome at anything over 65mph +

I guess the best way is factory - fit the lot, engine, box, prop, diff and
axle.

Seweryn

8~) wrote: »

I guess the best way is factory - fit the lot, engine, box, prop, diff and
axle.

... and suspension,
and speedometer,
and soundproofing,
and ignition barrel,
and some electrics,
and battery,
and many other things, if you want to make it "the factory way" or simply - the proper way.

If I was looking for one, I would rather buy an original Diesel engined example than messing with the conversion.

shawnee

Reason many are considering conversions is that most diesels have covered hundreds of thousands and are rusted away from the british salt. The few Irish ones fell apart from the road potholes and didn't need the salt to wreck them. There are however several low mileage petrol ones around and with the rise in fuel costs people are considering transfer to diesel. Have a 280 myself and think it would ruin the originality and pleasure of driving it to lob a diesel into it. I do however know where there is a really good 300d in immaculate condition but it would take a five figure sum to own it.:D;)

Kenny Logins

Does anybody have any experience with LPG on a carb or injected W123 petrol engine? Some tell me it's great, no problems whatsoever, others say avoid. It seems to be Marmite.

Seweryn

Kenny Logins wrote: »

Does anybody have any experience with LPG on a carb or injected W123 petrol engine? Some tell me it's great, no problems whatsoever, others say avoid. It seems to be Marmite.

In that particular generation of engines, I would rather avoid LPG, but there are well known examples that have no major issues with LPG. The key is the installation and the type of the LPG kit itself.

The next generation of engines, i.e. M111 fitted into the 124-series is excellent for the LPG conversion.

Kenny Logins

I think you know the specific car I'm referring to - my head says yes, but my heart says no...

Seweryn

Kenny Logins wrote: »

I think you know the specific car I'm referring to - my head says yes, but my heart says no...

Yeah , and the main question I would have - do you know a competent person to carry out the LPG conversion in that particular engine model? Would you feel confident after the job is done?

Kenny Logins

No, this one is already converted and has a few thousand miles up since.

Seweryn

Kenny Logins wrote: »

No, this one is already converted and has a few thousand miles up since.

Oh yes, sorry, I remember that one. I would also ask the owner what type / model is the conversion kit. Some guys use 3rd generation LPG kits and are quite happy with it.

8~)

shawnee wrote: »

Reason many are considering conversions is that most diesels have covered hundreds of thousands and are rusted away from the british salt. The few Irish ones fell apart from the road potholes and didn't need the salt to wreck them. There are however several low mileage petrol ones around and with the rise in fuel costs people are considering transfer to diesel. Have a 280 myself and think it would ruin the originality and pleasure of driving it to lob a diesel into it. I do however know where there is a really good 300d in immaculate condition but it would take a five figure sum to own it.:D;)

Oh the irony. I am looking for a good, cheap 280 motor. Anyone?

shawnee

8~) wrote: »

Oh the irony. I am looking for a good, cheap 280 motor. Anyone?

Therein lies the problem..... plenty cheap ones out there but like wine it is still hard to buy really good mercs cheap They are however not making the big bucks of a few years back but really good ones cheap.... I don't think so

8~)

It's just the engine I want, I have the rest of the car.
Others might be converting to diesel and throwing away the petrol engines. I want the engine.

liammons

I would agree it would be easier to source, but how much bigger job would it be to fit it, including the drive train into a different chassis?

liammons

is it a carb or injection one you are looking for?

shawnee

8~) wrote: »

It's just the engine I want, I have the rest of the car.
Others might be converting to diesel and throwing away the petrol engines. I want the engine.

There's a few of those 280 ... 6 cylinder engines hangin around , they are unbreakable , a superb engine.

8~)

The 280 engines are unbreakable if used - the one I have only has 60k miles and is banjaxed because it wasn't used (clogged oilways, lack of oil to cams...).

@Liammons - I sent you a PM. If your 280 engine is a good one I may be interested in buying it if you are swapping over to diesel.

"I would agree it would be easier to source, but how much bigger job would it be to fit it, including the drive train into a different chassis?"

I *think* the engine mounts are the same - a number of the W123 engines were carried over into the W124.

aidhan

8~) wrote: »

It's just the engine I want, I have the rest of the car.
Others might be converting to diesel and throwing away the petrol engines. I want the engine.

I know of a 280e w123 97k mls '78 and is been dismantled. Also a diesel conversion will make another available shortly..

liammons

That is the point!
If i could find a half decent w123 300d 5 speed manual, or 240d for that matter i wouldnt bother doing a conversion, but they can't be got for love nor money.
If i could find a half decent one or if anyone knows where there is one i would buy it

Stevo11

I had a 190D a few years ago, not sure the engine would be great hauling a W123 about.. but.. if you aren't in a hurry.. ;-)
It should be an easy enough swop, I had a 2.5 TD from a W201 (om602 I think?) in one of my W123's (a 200T, pic below). About the same get up and go as the 190D had with the 2L.

MidlandsM

A friend of mine has a 190d 4 pot engine in a w123 estate, and he said its grand, goes well and offers good service.

The engine in the 200T is just a 2 litre petrol yoke, so no ball of fire anyways, so the 190d engine output would and will suffice.

MercMad

I have looked at several W123's around the Country in the last month, most are complete rubbish. It seems when you ask if there is any rust folk dont seem to consider bubbles under the paint or holes in the bodywork caused by metal corrosion as rust !!!

Swapping a petrol to a diesel isn't open heart surgerey, most parts just fit, but doing it right . ie. making it look right and drive right takes a bit more.

I recently drove an '84 W123 that was petrool but had been fitted with a W124 2.5 multivalve diesel and 'box and it was impressive. Reasonably swift, smooth and economical.

liammons

yeah that tends to be a problem, i almost wasted my time driving thelenght of the country to look at a 240d that was on donedeal for a long time, 2750 euros and there was a hole in the floor, from the pics i then realised all 4 wheel arches were bodged and it was about 8 months out of its last uk mot. there is another red petrol 123 on dd with weird seat covers, same price but it was bought on ebay uk for 500 a week earlier, i mean come on!
i see today there is a usa spec, lhd diesel that ooks like its been parked up since Clinton was president and its on for about 3 as well!

shawnee

If you are looking at stuff for around 2750 euro , then you are surely only going to find rubbish. If you are prepared to spend around 4 times that (which is easily the value of a quality 123 diesel) I know where there are a few