very hard mouth on dog

stevoman

well lads. i seem to be in a bad prediciment with my dog. she's a brilliant hunter and i cant complain about that.
my only problem is her hard mouth. when she sees a bird dropped over her she always makes the retreive to me, but only after she gives the bird a good rag and damages it.

last week she bursted open a woodcock. saturday she swam out 30 yards and made a retreive of a pheasent but ragged it when she got it. yesterday she bite the breast open of the woodcock and then she made the retreive to me. then later she picked a snipe and literally chewed it up to nothing.

know im not going to chastise the dog for retreiving as i never stressed it with her on training but she does it to please me which i have established, but how would i go about getting her into the train of thought that a soft mouth is of the upmost importance.


any suggestions would be great.

foxshooter243

stevoman wrote: »

well lads. i seem to be in a bad prediciment with my dog. she's a brilliant hunter and i cant complain about that.
my only problem is her hard mouth. when she sees a bird dropped over her she always makes the retreive to me, but only after she gives the bird a good rag and damages it.

last week she bursted open a woodcock. saturday she swam out 30 yards and made a retreive of a pheasent but ragged it when she got it. yesterday she bite the breast open of the woodcock and then she made the retreive to me. then later she picked a snipe and literally chewed it up to nothing.

know im not going to chastise the dog for retreiving as i never stressed it with her on training but she does it to please me which i have established, but how would i go about getting her into the train of thought that a soft mouth is of the upmost importance.


any suggestions would be great.

A dog is termed "hard mouthed " when he bites the game sufficiently to break the ribs, not as to break the flesh as so many imagine.
The subject of hard mouth is quite a big subject and a book could be written on it but to keep my post short ill cut to the chase. I have only seen two real hard mouthed dogs in my time and thankfully have never owned any, one a springer spaniel bitch and the other a labrador, these two dogs acted in the fashion you describe, chewing game to a pulp before delivery.
There are plenty of old wives tales about putting a lump of a briar in a sock and so forth , but whilst just maybe and thats a big maybe it may bring a temporary cure, it wont bring a permanent cure.
Some young dogs through inexperience will make a mess of their first few retrieves, this is why the progression from dummies to cold dead game-then on to warm dead game and finally when the dog is ready to wounded game is so important, as inexperience can bring it on. However its not unknown for a young dog when experience is gained to drop the habit and begin to deliver properly, but if the habit persists then truthfully very little can be done.
Its very important when bringing on a young dog to not allow tug of war games , or to snatch dummies from his mouth. Other animals should be out of the way when a young dog is retrieving as well as another dog will cause an animal to bite down on the retrieve to hold on to it.
Another point to remember is that a dog shouldnt be allowed to retrieve the minute game is down, a wait on the drop to which he should be accustomed to during training , then after reloading your gun send him to pick the game and immediately his head goes down whistle him in giving him no time to mouth the game, if you can keep him on the move chances are you will get the bird back in one piece.To have a chance of redeeming the dog if thats possible, I would take him back to dummy work, no more shooting and work on his pick up and speed on the retrieve, then slowly reintroduce cod dead game and you may have a chance..if not then its a lost cause and he shouldnt be bred from..best of luck with him:)

stevoman

agreed this this is to persist the thoughts of breeding her are out the window.

its a shame to see it happen when i have put so much work into her. i never trained her as a retreiver as her being a setter i never expected it from the breed and her dam and sire where not retreivers either.

but all is not lost yet. i have her for life so i can work on it for years.

foxshooter243

stevoman wrote: »

agreed this this is to persist the thoughts of breeding her are out the window.

its a shame to see it happen when i have put so much work into her. i never trained her as a retreiver as her being a setter i never expected it from the breed and her dam and sire where not retreivers either.

but all is not lost yet. i have her for life so i can work on it for years.

Id go back and work on her retrieving, keep her on dummies and dummies with wing feathers attached and then you can progress to rabbit skinned dummies and youll be able to watch her progression, encourage speed in the retrieves, by using a whistle and walking away from her whilst retrieving, it may be down to inexperience on warm dead game without the slow introduction..as I said its a huge subject because different dogs have different levels of hard mouth for different reasons its up to the trainer to introduce retrieving at different levels slowly whilst watching for tell tale signs or for things that can cause it, but if you are prepared to put in the effort as you say , then you may turn it around.:)

irish setter

another option if all else fails is not to let her retrieve. drop her and keep her dropped and retrieve yourself. i know that is not always an option but in the long term you might think of the purist's way of hunting with a setter which is having a retrieving dog at your heel for all retrieves. the purist would never allow a setter to retrieve

greenpeter

My opinion of dogs retrieving is its a added bonus if a springer, cocker pointer, setter etc retrieves but if your setter hunts well then she is serving her real purpose, i know this doesn't solve your problem but stick with her and maybe run her with a good retrieving dog and let her see how its done. Good luck keep us posted on progress.

Alchemist2

This problem you have with your dog is just down to breeding, any top trialling men will tell you this it is hit and miss.If they have a dog thats really great but hard mouthed they will sell off... but first they will try a live pigeon in a pair of tights throw it for the dog and see what happens... they will only do this two maybe three times over the course of a few months if the dog is still damaging the bird they will sell them on.. it could be as someone said inexperience but leave it awhile and try again

foxshooter243

Alchemist2 wrote: »

This problem you have with your dog is just down to breeding, any top trialling men will tell you this it is hit and miss.If they have a dog thats really great but hard mouthed they will sell off... but first they will try a live pigeon in a pair of tights throw it for the dog and see what happens... they will only do this two maybe three times over the course of a few months if the dog is still damaging the bird they will sell them on.. it could be as someone said inexperience but leave it awhile and try again

Whilst it is possible that the problem may have been inherited from the parents , its a can of worms when figuring out the cause, as there are numerous things which can cause it, a congenital defect being only one.
Tug of war games, children snatching at a toy ,or the dog having something snatched from it that it shouldnt have, competing with other animals, fear or apprehension of returning to its master,getting spurred by a rooster causing it to kill first then retrieve are only some of the things that can bring it on , but if it is a congenital fault then its incureable by all accounts, but if it comes down to a hasty introduction to wounded game then it wouldnt have been there in the first instance and may be able to be worked on..its worth a go:)

stevoman

being completly honest tjhis whole shaboo is my fault and nowhon elses and no point telling lies or bla ming the dog.

when the pup was 5 months old guess which over anxious idiot brought home 2 shot snipe andf threw them round the garden to see wouyld she retreive and the dog then only naturally in its head assosiates that with a game.

all i can do is try talk her out of it now. i'l give her the year of dropping birds and see does it work. if not i can put the e-collar on and slowly turn her off ragging game without frying her. just a dart on the lowest level to let her know biting is wrong. if all comes to all i can stop her picking. mark the bird where it drops in covers. put her on a lead and walk her in and let her mark it then.

not ideal but its all my own fault. i will keep you updated though.

EPointer=Birdss

stevoman wrote: »

being completly honest tjhis whole shaboo is my fault and nowhon elses and no point telling lies or bla ming the dog.

when the pup was 5 months old guess which over anxious idiot brought home 2 shot snipe and threw them round the garden to see wouyld she retreive and the dog then only naturally in its head assosiates that with a game.

all i can do is try talk her out of it now. i'l give her the year of dropping birds and see does it work. if not i can put the e-collar on and slowly turn her off ragging game without frying her. just a dart on the lowest level to let her know biting is wrong. if all comes to all i can stop her picking. mark the bird where it drops in covers. put her on a lead and walk her in and let her mark it then.

not ideal but its all my own fault. i will keep you updated though.

1st of all throwing a bird at 5 months is the right thing to do so don't beat yourself up. You want em used to feathers not just dummys. I always do it with no long term effects. Were you allowing her to rag them then?

I say "get it" when I throw a dummy. Always same command. When the pointer shakes it on the way back I give a roar & run towards him. Usually he will drop it with the fright & come towards me. I stand up straight point to the dummy & repeat the get it until he goes back to it. He can be very coy on picking it again but he knows the command is for him to bring it back so always does. It is important that they know the command well or you could frighten them off retrieving doing this.
The springer is more sensitive so I can't be as harsh but he has a very good natural retrieve instinct so far & always comes straight back.
Short throws are the best option so you can keep control. Do not allow ragging of any sort. Always give a drop or give command when you take it off her so she doesn't grab.
You could use the collar here & I am a fan of them but I would try the above first. If you have used the collar for correction all along then use it as she will know what it means. If not be slower with it.
You could also put her on a long lead & give her a pull when she starts shakin it or try calling then running away when she picks it 1st & she might run straight for you to follow.
Few ways to try & sort it out.

I introduced the last 2 pups to feathers with magpies. The don't seem to like the taste of em so are not inclined to chew. They will carry them but very lightly. Strange but true...:eek:

Good luck with it anyway...

foxshooter243

stevoman wrote: »

being completly honest tjhis whole shaboo is my fault and nowhon elses and no point telling lies or bla ming the dog.

when the pup was 5 months old guess which over anxious idiot brought home 2 shot snipe andf threw them round the garden to see wouyld she retreive and the dog then only naturally in its head assosiates that with a game.

all i can do is try talk her out of it now. i'l give her the year of dropping birds and see does it work. if not i can put the e-collar on and slowly turn her off ragging game without frying her. just a dart on the lowest level to let her know biting is wrong. if all comes to all i can stop her picking. mark the bird where it drops in covers. put her on a lead and walk her in and let her mark it then.

not ideal but its all my own fault. i will keep you updated though.

Fair play stevoman, I admire your honesty;), when I first started with gundogs back in the middle seventies, I made plenty of mistakes, I was just lucky with most of them that I managed to undo my handiwork:D..
seeing as it wasnt a congenital fault , you may be able to undo it with some effort...its a mistake you will only make once..keep us posted how you get on:)

foxshooter243

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

1st of all throwing a bird at 5 months is the right thing to do so don't beat yourself up. You want em used to feathers not just dummys. I always do it with no long term effects. Were you allowing her to rag them then?

I say "get it" when I throw a dummy. Always same command. When the pointer shakes it on the way back I give a roar & run towards him. Usually he will drop it with the fright & come towards me. I stand up straight point to the dummy & repeat the get it until he goes back to it. He can be very coy on picking it again but he knows the command is for him to bring it back so always does. It is important that they know the command well or you could frighten them off retrieving doing this.
The springer is more sensitive so I can't be as harsh but he has a very good natural retrieve instinct so far & always comes straight back.
Short throws are the best option so you can keep control. Do not allow ragging of any sort. Always give a drop or give command when you take it off her so she doesn't grab.
You could use the collar here & I am a fan of them but I would try the above first. If you have used the collar for correction all along then use it as she will know what it means. If not be slower with it.
You could also put her on a long lead & give her a pull when she starts shakin it or try calling then running away when she picks it 1st & she might run straight for you to follow.
Few ways to try & sort it out.

I introduced the last 2 pups to feathers with magpies. The don't seem to like the taste of em so are not inclined to chew. They will carry them but very lightly. Strange but true...:eek:

Good luck with it anyway...

just for the heck of ill explain my method of introducing a young dog to live game...Firstly, when the pup is about three months old ill make an assesment of their natural retrieving instinct..this will be their first retrieve, as no one else wil have been permitted to throw anything for the dog. I would take the dog somewhere its not familiar with, a 3 month old pup will not like to be too far from you on unfamiliar ground, ill throw a small manageable dummy and encourage the pup to collect it, this will give you an idea of how easy or hard its going to be..some pups will run , lift and on being encouraged will come straight back to you when after a few long seconds you gently take the small dummy from its mouth. Others will run sniff the dummy , mouth it, maybe lift it and run in the opposite direction:D..but youll have an idea of what your up against from this little test. so then i would go home and decide which way to throw the next one. When i have the pup retrieving, say two retrieves evry other day on a small dummy i will move on to a rabbit skinned dummy, at this stage ill be encouraging speed in the retrieve, when the pup is allowed, as not every retrieve will be the pups, some ill let the pup see me pick myself.
The reason for this is to encourage and reinforce steadiness, and will come in useful if a wounded rooster is encountered in the field early in the pups career , as the pup may be too inexperienced too handle it, a spur from a rooster will only serve to encourage the dog to give it a quick nip to calm it down and hastily get it back to you and trouble begins to brew.

When i have the pup speedily picking up a rabbit skinned dummy, ill strap on a few feathers, ill then pick mytime when the pup is really keen and give it the feathered dummy and with luck the pup will run pick it up, you will probably see the pup noticing a difference but with lots of encouragement the pup will have the dummy back before it cops on that there was feathers attached, then on to cold dead game, which has been killed the day before, if using a bird then wrap elastic bands around the bird to make it easily handled , make life easy for the dog. at this stage some sort of bag is handy to put the dummies out of sight once finished with.
When i have the dog ready for the shooting field, ill bring along a friend to shoot, ill handle the dog, cos the minute you take your full attention off a young dog he will notice and may put you to the test!.at this stage ill choose the wounded rabbit or bird ill send him for, it will be the easisest i can get, you will be building up the confidence level in the dog to the day
it can be sent for a strong running rooster which the dog will confidently bring back..youll know when the dogs ready.
Some dogs are easy to turn into polished retrievers some require some work, but the majority with careful handling will make it..one last point I would like to make about a dog mouthing game is, if a dog does return with a bird that has been mouthed, or damaged in some way it may be down to difficulties encountered whilst retrieving, I remember sending a spaniel after a wounded rooster which had landed two fields away, the dog located the bird lodged in heavy undergrowth and had extreme difficulty dislodging the bird from its hide, I reached in and grabbed the bird and had a job pulling it out as the rooster had its feet locked onto vegetation, the only way that dog would have gotten that bird was by pulling him from that hole which would have tore it up..a good sign to look for is when a dog is returning with a wounded bird, is if the bird has its head up , then theres not too much bite on the ribs which would force its head back..:)

irish setter

imo some dogs have a hard mouth and some dogs don't. you can't create it nor cure it totally. when dogs were first bred this was a major consideration and nowadays serious consideration is seldom taken when breeding dogs and a ftch may never take a bird in his mouth as retrieving is not practiced in pointer and setter trials. but thats just my opinion.

lucy333springer

Not being funny here guy's, but i know this farmer who's sheep dog kept biting and damageing the lamb's leg's when rounding them up, so to curb this the dog had a visit to the vet/dentist and had the front teeth top and bottom removed, I guess that put and end to the hard mouth, great dog now, but a poor smile, I hope and pray you don't try this one stevo, slan.

foxshooter243

lucy333springer wrote: »

Not being funny here guy's, but i know this farmer who's sheep dog kept biting and damageing the lamb's leg's when rounding them up, so to curb this the dog had a visit to the vet/dentist and had the front teeth top and bottom removed, I guess that put and end to the hard mouth, great dog now, but a poor smile, I hope and pray you don't try this one stevo, slan.

A bit OTT there lucy333, I would have thought a vet would have suggested a muzzle before leaving a dog without a smile:eek:-I hope the farmer isnt depending on him to protect him from a burglar after that thoughtless act!:rolleyes:

lucy333springer

foxshooter243 wrote: »

I hope the farmer isnt depending on him to protect him from a burglar after that thoughtless act!:rolleyes:

foxy, I think the double barrel u/o would step in there.:D