Planning Permission Retention Question

Mytikal

Hi

I am going to be selling my house shortly and originally in about 1987 we converted our gargage into a room (the garage is attached to the house so changed the front of the house) We then built on a small utility in 1993 at the back of the house and then in 2002 we built a sun room to the side of the house ( not visible from the front of the house) but goes within about 1 metre from the neighbours fence. We didnt get planning for any of these and I am just wondering that now we want to sell will we need to apply for retention for all or any of them?

Thank you,

Louise

mickdw

Yes you will need retention. You can build 40 sq.m. to rear without planning provided certain conditions are met.
Seeing as all of your extensions dont meet the exemption criteria, I would just apply for retention of all the little changes even if one of them didnt need planning.
Some of the other guys on here will have more technical knowledge on these things though.

Poor Uncle Tom

First of all, I wouldn't apply for planning retention of anything if it does not need it, you will be charged not only planning fees but contributions per square metre, why pay it if you don't have to.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/si/0600.html#partviii

SCHEDULE 2

Article 6

Part 1
Exempted Development — General
Column 1
Description of Development
Column 2
Conditions and Limitations

Development within the curtilage of a house

CLASS 1

The extension of a house, by the construction or erection of an extension (including a conservatory) to the rear of the house or by the conversion for use as part of the house of any garage, store, shed or other similar structure attached to the rear or to the side of the house.
1. (a) Where the house has not been extended previously, the floor area of any such extension shall not exceed 40 square metres.
(b) Subject to paragraph (a), where the house is terraced or semi-detached, the floor area of any extension above ground level shall not exceed 12 square metres.
(c) Subject to paragraph (a), where the house is detached, the floor area of any extension above ground level shall not exceed 20 square metres.
2. (a) Where the house has been extended previously, the floor area of any such extension, taken together with the floor area of any previous extension or extensions constructed or erected after 1 October 1964, including those for which planning permission has been obtained, shall not exceed 40 square metres.
(b) Subject to paragraph (a), where the house is terraced or semi-detached and has been extended previously, the floor area of any extension above ground level taken together with the floor area of any previous extension or extensions above ground level constructed or erected after 1 October 1964, including those for which planning permission has been obtained, shall not exceed 12 square metres.
(c) Subject to paragraph (a), where the house is detached and has been extended previously, the floor area of any extension above ground level, taken together with the floor area of any previous extension or extensions above ground level constructed or erected after 1 October 1964, including those for which planning permission has been obtained, shall not exceed 20 square metres.
3. Any above ground floor extension shall be a distance of not less than 2 metres from any party boundary.
4. (a) Where the rear wall of the house does not include a gable, the height of the walls of any such extension shall not exceed the height of the rear wall of the house.
(b) Where the rear wall of the house includes a gable, the height of the walls of any such extension shall not exceed the height of the side walls of the house.
(c) The height of the highest part of the roof of any such extension shall not exceed, in the case of a flat roofed extension, the height of the eaves or parapet, as may be appropriate, or, in any other case, shall not exceed the height of the highest part of the roof of the dwelling.
5. The construction or erection of any such extension to the rear of the house shall not reduce the area of private open space, reserved exclusively for the use of the occupants of the house, to the rear of the house to less than 25 square metres.
6. (a) Any window proposed at ground level in any such extension shall not be less than 1 metre from the boundary it faces.
(b) Any window proposed above ground level in any such extension shall not be less than 11 metres from the boundary it faces.
(c) Where the house is detached and the floor area of the extension above ground level exceeds 12 square metres, any window proposed at above ground level shall not be less than 11 metres from the boundary it faces.
7. The roof of any extension shall not be used as a balcony or roof garden.

If your rear extension complies with the above then it is an exempted development.

SECOND SCHEDULE
PART I
Exempted Development — General

Column 1
Description of Development
Column 2
Conditions and Limitations
Development within the curtilage of a dwellinghouseCLASS 1The extension of a dwellinghouse, by the construction or erection of an extension (including a conservatory) to the rear of the dwellinghouse or by the conversion for use as part of the dwellinghouse of any garage, store, shed or other similar structure attached to the rear or to the side of the dwellinghouse.1. ( a ) Where the dwellinghouse has not been extended previously, the floor area of any such extension shall not exceed 23 square metres.
( b ) Where the dwellinghouse has been extended previously, the floor area of any such extension, taken together with the floor area of any previous extension or extensions, shall not exceed 23 square metres.
2. The height of any such extension shall not exceed the height of the eaves or parapet, as may be appropriate, of the dwellinghouse.
3. The construction or erection of any such extension to the rear of the dwellinghouse shall not reduce the area of private open space of the dwellinghouse to the rear of the dwellinghouse to less than 25 square metres.



If your garage conversion complies with the above it is most likely an exempted development.

Your Sun-Room on the other hand definitely needs Retention Planning Permission, as it is constructed to the side of the house.

muffler

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

you will be charged not only planning fees but contributions per square metre

Extensions are exempt from the Development Contribution Scheme.

Poor Uncle Tom

The LA's are charging for them down this way.

Edit: I know it was the case that they never charged for extensions, but they are now with about a year.

muffler

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

The LA's are charging for them down this way.

They shouldn't unless it's in respect of retention of a new build.

Give me a minute and I'll find the relevant part of the legislation.

muffler

Here you go or at least this is my interpretation of the wording. Section 48.(3).(b) states

In stating the basis for determining the contributions in accordance with paragraph (a), the scheme shall indicate the contribution to be paid in respect of the different classes of public infrastructure and facilities which are provided or to be provided by any local authority and the planning authority shall have regard to the actual estimated cost of providing the classes of public infrastructure and facilities, except that any benefit which accrues in respect of existing development may not be included in any such determination.

LINK

lucky-colm

just my two cents:D

but if you have something built with 15 years and no one has lodged a complaint against it or the council have not written to you advising that it is and illegal development you are automatically entiled to planning permission you would still have to submit drawings and measurments and what the buildings are being used for, for the council's records.

now i could be completely wrong here but i have an 80% feeling iam right or something close to it.:D

Poor Uncle Tom

lucky-colm wrote: »

just my two cents:D

but if you have something built with 15 years and no one has lodged a complaint against it or the council have not written to you advising that it is and illegal development you are automatically entiled to planning permission you would still have to submit drawings and measurments and what the buildings are being used for, for the council's records.

now i could be completely wrong here but i have an 80% feeling iam right or something close to it.:D

No.
If the structure is in place for over 7 years you can not be prosecuted for it, but it is still an illegal structure. The council are not obliged to grant retrospective planning permission for it. This may come against the property owner if the property ever comes up for sale.

muffler

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

No.
If the structure is in place for over 7 years you can not be prosecuted for it, but it is still an illegal structure. The council are not obliged to grant retrospective planning permission for it. This may come against the property owner if the property ever comes up for sale.

+1.

Its a (false) belief held by many that you either dont need planning permission or that the permission is automatically granted after a given length of time but nothing could be further from the truth.

Its one of the little anomalies in the P & D Acts whereby a Planning Authority is statutory barred from instigating legal proceedings in relation to an unauthorised development after a period of 7 years yet the said unauthorised development will never have planning permission or would it be deemed to be exempt unless of course an application for retention is granted.

tmdsurvey

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Your Sun-Room on the other hand definitely needs Retention Planning Permission, as it is constructed to the side of the house.

+1

The sunroom does require planning permission. The other works seem to be exempt. The rate charged to the council will be €102 or €2.50 per sq. metre, whichever is the greater.

As you are selling and the other works are exempt you will save on planning fee's if you just get retention for the sunroom although you might require a certificate of exemption for the other extensions/alterations at the request of the purchasers solicitor and as we all know solicitors are not cheap.

As a previous poster pointed out, you should go for retention for the lot as this will put the issue to bed and in the whole scheme of things will not increase the architects price that much.

lucky-colm

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

No.
If the structure is in place for over 7 years you can not be prosecuted for it, but it is still an illegal structure. The council are not obliged to grant retrospective planning permission for it. This may come against the property owner if the property ever comes up for sale.

yes thats for 7 years

but after 15 years it is no longer deemed to be an illegal structure and it has not offended anyone (which we now know or else they would have lodged a complaint about it) it will get planning not to sure of the specifics of the legislation it comes under but i have gotten planning through in this way before the council weren't very helpfull at the begining but when my engineer went and had a meeting with them and informed them of such a loophole they gave in handy enough.

anyhow that is neither here nor there cos that was a rather large project and there was an expensive crowd of engineers involved which you would not be employing to apply for a few extensions for you.

just another point on this is that most of the older farm buildings get planning permission in this way alot of the newer ones have to get planning permission before they start as grants would be involved

Poor Uncle Tom

lucky-colm wrote: »

.......but after 15 years it is no longer deemed to be an illegal structure.......

I don't think this is exactly the case, I think your reference to 15 years comes from 'pre 1994 Act'. This may make an unothorised development 'less severe' in the eyes of the LA, but it can not change the status of a building from being illegal.

Bitten & Hisses

If they can't prosecute you after 7 years, does this mean that they cannot issue an enforcement notice telling you to demolish the structure, or are they two separate issues?

Poor Uncle Tom

Correct, the enforcement notice may be a means of getting you to prove it's there with over 7 years, but they can't get you to remove it.

lucky-colm

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

I don't think this is exactly the case, I think your reference to 15 years comes from 'pre 1994 Act'. This may make an unothorised development 'less severe' in the eyes of the LA, but it can not change the status of a building from being illegal.

ok
ye seem to know what ye are talking about around here so i think i will clear off
who am i to know what iam talking about i mean to say all i have to go on is a real life case, proven, planning secured and got without having to apply for it.

but hey keep giving the solid advice tom

muffler

lucky-colm wrote: »

ok
ye seem to know what ye are talking about around here so i think i will clear off
who am i to know what iam talking about i mean to say all i have to go on is a real life case, proven, planning secured and got without having to apply for it.

but hey keep giving the solid advice tom

And you can post up all data and documents here to back up that ridiculous claim?

Poor Uncle Tom

lucky-colm wrote: »

....planning secured and got without having to apply for it.

That's utter nonsense.

sydthebeat

lucky-colm wrote: »

who am i to know what iam talking about i mean to say all i have to go on is a real life case, proven, planning secured and got without having to apply for it.

so...

no planning application = no planning application number = no certificate of compliance = no planning

are sure sure what you did was not considered exempt from permission?

tmdsurvey

sydthebeat wrote: »

so...

no planning application = no planning application number = no certificate of compliance = no planning

are sure sure what you did was not considered exempt from permission?

+1

You cannot get planning permission if you have not applied for it...

muffler

tmdsurvey wrote: »

You cannot get planning permission if you have not applied for it...

Thats nonsense. Most of the guys in the local on a Saturday night will tell you that you can

tmdsurvey

muffler wrote: »

Thats nonsense. Most of the guys in the local on a Saturday night will tell you that you can

Oh yeah, the local! forgot about that. Amazing how many experts are in there, optimistic bunch with free advice! What happens in the local should stay in the local! :rolleyes:

muffler

tmdsurvey wrote: »

What happens in the local should stay in the local! :rolleyes:

No, not at all. We wouldn't be having a discussion here at all if people didn't start querying the "good" advice they get in the their local hostelry

tmdsurvey

muffler wrote: »

No, not at all. We wouldn't be having a discussion here at all if people didn't start querying the "good" advice they get in the their local hostelry

The problem is there is a tendency for people not to query the "good" advice they get in the local in my experience. Obviously if someone is told by Joe Soap in the pub that they dont need permission they are not going to go back to their architect, who's time time they have just wasted, to pay X amount for a planning application that they think they dont need.

I agree with your point. Of course it is good if they do query the advice with professionals afterwards and it is something I would encourage

townplanner

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

First of all, I wouldn't apply for planning retention of anything if it does not need it, you will be charged not only planning fees but contributions per square metre, why pay it if you don't have to.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/si/0600.html#partviii

SCHEDULE 2

Article 6

Part 1
Exempted Development — General
Column 1
Description of Development
Column 2
Conditions and Limitations

Development within the curtilage of a house

CLASS 1

The extension of a house, by the construction or erection of an extension (including a conservatory) to the rear of the house or by the conversion for use as part of the house of any garage, store, shed or other similar structure attached to the rear or to the side of the house.
1. (a) Where the house has not been extended previously, the floor area of any such extension shall not exceed 40 square metres.
(b) Subject to paragraph (a), where the house is terraced or semi-detached, the floor area of any extension above ground level shall not exceed 12 square metres.
(c) Subject to paragraph (a), where the house is detached, the floor area of any extension above ground level shall not exceed 20 square metres.
2. (a) Where the house has been extended previously, the floor area of any such extension, taken together with the floor area of any previous extension or extensions constructed or erected after 1 October 1964, including those for which planning permission has been obtained, shall not exceed 40 square metres.
(b) Subject to paragraph (a), where the house is terraced or semi-detached and has been extended previously, the floor area of any extension above ground level taken together with the floor area of any previous extension or extensions above ground level constructed or erected after 1 October 1964, including those for which planning permission has been obtained, shall not exceed 12 square metres.
(c) Subject to paragraph (a), where the house is detached and has been extended previously, the floor area of any extension above ground level, taken together with the floor area of any previous extension or extensions above ground level constructed or erected after 1 October 1964, including those for which planning permission has been obtained, shall not exceed 20 square metres.
3. Any above ground floor extension shall be a distance of not less than 2 metres from any party boundary.
4. (a) Where the rear wall of the house does not include a gable, the height of the walls of any such extension shall not exceed the height of the rear wall of the house.
(b) Where the rear wall of the house includes a gable, the height of the walls of any such extension shall not exceed the height of the side walls of the house.
(c) The height of the highest part of the roof of any such extension shall not exceed, in the case of a flat roofed extension, the height of the eaves or parapet, as may be appropriate, or, in any other case, shall not exceed the height of the highest part of the roof of the dwelling.
5. The construction or erection of any such extension to the rear of the house shall not reduce the area of private open space, reserved exclusively for the use of the occupants of the house, to the rear of the house to less than 25 square metres.
6. (a) Any window proposed at ground level in any such extension shall not be less than 1 metre from the boundary it faces.
(b) Any window proposed above ground level in any such extension shall not be less than 11 metres from the boundary it faces.
(c) Where the house is detached and the floor area of the extension above ground level exceeds 12 square metres, any window proposed at above ground level shall not be less than 11 metres from the boundary it faces.
7. The roof of any extension shall not be used as a balcony or roof garden.

If your rear extension complies with the above then it is an exempted development.

Please be aware that the list above is not the only element of the regulations you must consult before establishing if something is exempt or not. You must also check Article 9 of the Planning Regulations "Restrictions on Exemption". Many people think they are exempt when in fact they aren't. There is a further 12 criteria which need to be checked before considering if something is exempt. The only sure way is to get a section 5 declaration from your local authority.

Poor Uncle Tom

The following was taken from the above link I gave...

Exempted Development.
6. (1)Subject to article 9, development of a class specified in column 1 of Part 1 of Schedule 2 shall be exempted development for the purposes of the Act, provided that such development complies with the conditions and limitations specified in column 2 of the said Part 1 opposite the mention of that class in the said column 1.
(2) (a) Subject to article 9, development consisting of the use of a structure or other land for the exhibition of advertisements of a class specified in column 1 of Part 2 of Schedule 2 shall be exempted development for the purposes of the Act, provided that—
(i) such development complies with the conditions and limitations specified in column 2 of the said Part 2 opposite the mention of that class in the said column 1, and
(ii) the structure or other land shall not be used for the exhibition of any advertisement other than an advertisement of a class which is specified in column 1 of the said Part 2 and which complies with the conditions and limitations specified in column 2 of the said Part 2 opposite the mention of that class in the said column 1.
(b) Subject to article 9, development consisting of the erection of any advertisement structure for the exhibition of an advertisement of any one of the classes specified in column 1 of Part 2 of Schedule 2 shall be exempted development for the purposes of the Act, provided that—
(i) the area of such advertisement structure which is used for the exhibition of an advertisement does not exceed the area, if any, specified in column 2 of the said Part 2 opposite the mention of that class in the said column 1,
(ii) the advertisement structure is not used for the exhibition of advertisements other than advertisements of the class to which the exemption relates,
(iii) further to section 57 of the Act, the advertisement structure is not erected on a protected structure or a proposed protected structure save an advertisement structure referred to in Classes 5, 9 or 15 of column 1 of Part 2 of Schedule 2,
(iv) further to section 82 of the Act, the advertisement structure is not located on the exterior of a structure where the structure concerned is located within an architectural conservation area or an area specified as an architectural conservation area in a development plan for the area or, pending the variation of a development plan or the making of a new development plan, in the draft development plan, so as to materially affect the character of the area, save an advertisement structure referred to in Classes 5, 9 or 15 of column 1 of Part 2 of Schedule 2, and





As can be quite clearly seen, there is adequate reference to Article 9.

townplanner

Point taken. Its just that on reading the text posted someone who is not familiar with planning might assume that that was the definitive list and not realise there is more. Just thought it important to point it out. Your additional post from the link clears it up for everybody!

YouWantWhat

muffler wrote: »

Here you go or at least this is my interpretation of the wording. Section 48.(3).(b) states


LINK

Hi Muffler
just reading your comment on planning contributions. I think you have mis-interperated the act in relation to existing buildings. An existing building would be one that has been legally constructed and all planning conditons have been met. In this case the extensions have been constructed illegally. The extensions have increased the area of the dwelling and contributions will apply accordingly.