south africa false champions??

handsomecake

we had a couple of discussions about this in a round about way this year.
ive been of the opinion that they never met any one of note(in an extremely strange world cup),fiji ran them close,england in the final ,and a group full of clowns.
their back line is limited in its skill and ability and is essentially made redundant any way by tactics which entail the ball never passing morne steyn and adopting bryan habana and jp pietersen as bloodhounds hunting up and unders.
they were a ronan o gara brain fart away from losing the lions series.(some will argue if they lost the second test they would have been full strenght for the third and i accept that).
people say richie mccaw is a cheater,but he is just pushing the laws to their limit in a playing sense.the springboks on the other hand are a nasty bunch.lots of off the ball,malicious stuff..........tonight was indicative of this.
they dont have a plan b.after the aerial ping pong fails they are bereft of ideas.
they also have problems with the northern hemisphere refs (moreso then aus and nz) because their infringing at scrum and breakdown time is blatant.
i thought they played absolutely no rugby in the tri-nations but the other two teams were just too poor to exploit their deficiencies.

Stick_man

They are a fine, functional side. The world cup kinda fell into their lap though. If the lions selected the right side in the first test then the series was theirs. That being said De Villers and Steyn are huge losses to them. We will be all out to beat them.

Risteard

France laid out what is required. Beat them up front and we should rip them apart in the backs. Jean de Villiers is looking like a massive loss for them. He mightn't be in the best of form for Munster but he was brilliant with the Springboks.

Their scrum is nothing special and we should at least hold our own and their lineout wasn't it's usual imperious self today, but I suspect that will be sorted out for Dublin in two weeks.

Depending on how we go against Australia, I'm slightly more confident about this one.


Anyone reckon Habana's little knee could cause him to get into bother?

Johnny Utah

07 was a strange world cup tbh- Ireland (the so called golden generation) didn't show up, Wales out in the group stages too, a very ordinary England side, the French magnificent one game then capitulate the next, all blacks choke yet again.

Tbh if Ireland were on top form, say grand slam standard for example, I honestly think we would have had a great chance at winning the 07 World Cup. In saying that SA could only beat what was put before them and they did, so yes they are worthy world champions, even though it was a weak world cup.

phog

handsomecake wrote: »

...........o driscoll et al should rip these guys a new arsehole in two weeks

Just like the Lions did a few months back:p

The WC was a bit of a joke ok and SA certainly looked poor tonight but I wouldn't be too confident of Ireland ripping them apart just yet.

handsomecake

Johnny Utah wrote: »

07 was a strange world cup tbh- Ireland (the so called golden generation) didn't show up, Wales out in the group stages too, a very ordinary England side, the French magnificent one game then capitulate the next, all blacks choke yet again.

Tbh if Ireland were on top form, say grand slam standard for example, I honestly think we would have had a great chance at winning the 07 World Cup. In saying that SA could only beat what was put before them and they did, so yes they are worthy world champions, even though it was a weak world cup.

as a little aside,i think new zealand will beat france in france in three weeks

SpAcEd OuT

Johnny Utah wrote: »

07 was a strange world cup tbh- Ireland (the so called golden generation) didn't show up, Wales out in the group stages too, a very ordinary England side, the French magnificent one game then capitulate the next, all blacks choke yet again.

Tbh if Ireland were on top form, say grand slam standard for example, I honestly think we would have had a great chance at winning the 07 World Cup. In saying that SA could only beat what was put before them and they did, so yes they are worthy world champions, even though it was a weak world cup.

I've always thought that. I mean for the most part France, England, Wales and Australia were poor. England somehow managed to make it to the final. South Africa and Argentina were well beatable and New Zealand choked. It easily could of been Ireland's year when you look at the team Ireland had.

handsomecake

phog wrote: »

Just like the Lions did a few months back:p

The WC was a bit of a joke ok and SA certainly looked poor tonight but I wouldn't be too confident of Ireland ripping them apart just yet.

jacobs at 13 was one thing,but jacobs at 12 is another. we should be too good for them.they are charlatans

OldJay

They won the RWC final.
That, in my book anyway, makes them genuine World Champions.
They also won the Tri Nations this year and deservedly so.

handsomecake

SpAcEd OuT wrote: »

I've always thought that. I mean for the most part France, England, Wales and Australia were poor. England somehow managed to make it to the final. South Africa and Argentina were well beatable and New Zealand choked. It easily could of been Ireland's year when you look at the team Ireland had.

i also find that the new zealand "choking thing" is harsh. carter went off injured,as did evans HIS REPLACEMENT,the forward pass etc.mc calister was harshly sin binned.
the same clown who reffed tonights match reffed that.
new zealand scored more tries then anyone else and were knocked out in the quarters!!

but any way that world cup in hind sight was definitely not a barometer of where teams lay.it was odd.that england team was beaten by all and sundry after that final appearance.south africa were beaten and held scoreless IN SOUTH AFRICA by the all blacks.ireland blossomed.wales got better.fiji went back to being fiji.


when the world cup comes round every one just kicks the leather off the ball and re-discovers the drop goal exists

handsomecake

Justind wrote: »

They won the RWC final.
That, in my book anyway, makes them genuine World Champions.
They also won the Tri Nations this year and deservedly so.

greece won the football european championships in football two tournaments ago and didnt kick a ball.
portsmouth won the f.a cup ywo years ago playing awful football
mon momme won the grand national at 100 /1 last year.

i think their world cup win was an aberration.they won it because they won in the final.
they didnt play any one of note.
they didint play good rugby.
i dont think its a particular scalp if any one beats them.they are average and are being found out

old boy

the amount of games s.a. have played this season is their undoing, france were fresh and woundup, s.a. were typical, strong forwards and kick like hell, a jaded team, wiich the next two games will freshing them up.

Risteard

The World Cup is what it is though. A snapshot in time. A team could get what some perceive to be, a lucky run of matches, and win the World cup. South Africa could only beat what was in front of them but theres no doubting that they were the best side in Tri-Nations this year but they are a limited team IMO, even moreso now that some of their best back have left. Key figures in their pack are also aging.

Their pack and a superb kicker and of course the link between them is what won them the Tri-Nations. But Brussow is something else, he had about 7 turnovers on his own today?

handsomecake

Risteard wrote: »

The World Cup is what it is though. A snapshot in time. A team could get what some perceive to be, a lucky run of matches, and win the World cup. South Africa could only beat what was in front of them but theres no doubting that they were the best side in Tri-Nations this year but they are a limited team IMO, even moreso now that some of their best back have left. Key figures in their pack are also aging.

Their pack and a superb kicker and of course the link between them is what won them the Tri-Nations. But Brussow is something else, he had about 7 turnovers on his own today?

yeah.how does his spine not snap.some of the positions he gets in to are unreal. he tackled his heart out too.

handsomecake

old boy wrote: »

the amount of games s.a. have played this season is their undoing, france were fresh and woundup, s.a. were typical, strong forwards and kick like hell, a jaded team, wiich the next two games will freshing them up.

how will two more games freshen up a jaded team??
surely a break freshens up a jaded team

OldJay

handsomecake wrote: »

greece won the football european championships in football two tournaments ago and didnt kick a ball.
portsmouth won the f.a cup ywo years ago playing awful football
mon momme won the grand national at 100 /1 last year.

i think their world cup win was an aberration.they won it because they won in the final.
they didnt play any one of note.
they didint play good rugby.
i dont think its a particular scalp if any one beats them.they are average and are being found out

Incredulous logic there.
It seems you must have a predetermined winner or else the favourite must win to be crowned true champs, never mind them having to win in a certain style.
Don't ask for much, do you? lol

Risteard

He's pretty small for an international forward usually is (5'9). And he uses this, not totally dissimilar to Shane Williams, to his advantage. I think because he's shorter he can get in quicker and just snaffle ball. Plus he has a lower centre of gravity which would give him more balance and obviously makes it harder for bigger player to dislodge him once he gets his hands on the ball.

Peter B

handsomecake wrote: »

we had a couple of discussions about this in a round about way this year.
ive been of the opinion that they never met any one of note(in an extremely strange world cup),fiji ran them close,england in the final ,and a group full of clowns.
their back line is limited in its skill and ability and is essentially made redundant any way by tactics which entail the ball never passing morne steyn and adopting bryan habana and jp pietersen as bloodhounds hunting up and unders.
they were a ronan o gara brain fart away from losing the lions series.(some will argue if they lost the second test they would have been full strenght for the third and i accept that).
people say richie mccaw is a cheater,but he is just pushing the laws to their limit in a playing sense.the springboks on the other hand are a nasty bunch.lots of off the ball,malicious stuff..........tonight was indicative of this.
they dont have a plan b.after the aerial ping pong fails they are bereft of ideas.
they also have problems with the northern hemisphere refs (moreso then aus and nz) because their infringing at scrum and breakdown time is blatant.
i thought they played absolutely no rugby in the tri-nations but the other two teams were just too poor to exploit their deficiencies.

o driscoll et al should rip these guys a new arsehole in two weeks

Is this for real? The World Cup was 2 years ago! The Springboks beat the Lions (the best players from Britain and Ireland) as well as being undefeated in the Tri-nations in a competition which has the top 3 teams in the World.

They lost to France in the hot-bed of French rugby in Toulouse in a once off Test match. In the mean time they are playing mid week matches against club sides so the management cannot just focus on the tests.

While they may have taken a slight dip in form since the Tri-nations you can't call them false champions! By the sounds of your post you just dislike their playing style especially the aerial ping pong (not a fan of this myself) but if in most cases it is winning rugby. Unfortunately they didn't win today and probably should have lost by more but they still remain worthy World Cup champions.

Madworld

I think people are being overly critical of S.A. here. They were tired after a long season whilst France are fresh. Come World Cup time they will be contenders again

handsomecake

Justind wrote: »

Incredulous logic there.
It seems you must have a predetermined winner or else the favourite must win to be crowned true champs, never mind them having to win in a certain style.
Don't ask for much, do you? lol

well for instance ..............barcelona in last years champions league were scintillating.valentino rossi last week league was phenomenal.

south africa avoided all the marquee teams on the way to the final.

Chucky the tree

Why bother having a world cup with that kind of attitude handsome? Lets just lets the bookies decide, whoever is favourites we'll just give them the trophy because clearly what happens on the pitch doesn't matter. Atleast then the All blacks would win one I suppose. The begruding attitude is pathetic.

PhatPiggins

handsomecake wrote: »

as a little aside,i think new zealand will beat france in france in three weeks

Are you a kiwi?

If SA are averge NZ/OZ must be terrible because SA could easily have won every game in this years Tri Nations.

They're not the best team ever seen but you can only beat whats in front of you. If the WC was played in a neutral country next january SA would win it.

handsomecake

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Are you a kiwi?

If SA are averge NZ/OZ must be terrible because SA could easily have won every game in this years Tri Nations.

They're not the best team ever seen but you can only beat whats in front of you. If the WC was played in a neutral country next january SA would win it.

no im irish.

sa are being pilloried on planet rugby at the moment.
a lot of similar sentiment in those threads

handsomecake

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Why bother having a world cup with that kind of attitude handsome? Lets just lets the bookies decide, whoever is favourites we'll just give them the trophy because clearly what happens on the pitch doesn't matter. Atleast then the All blacks would win one I suppose. The begruding attitude is pathetic.

all im saying is they had an incredibly easy route to the final.

Zzippy

Silly thread. SA won the World Cup and deservedly so. They won the Tri Nations at a canter, and beat a very good Lions team over 3 games. They've had a long season, and France played like they haven't done since dumping NZ out of the WC.
Super game, but it doesn't really take away from what SA have achieved. A bit like the Wales-Fiji game in the WC, SA were dragged into an open game when they wanted to play their more structured gameplan, France just kept running at them. I'd love to think Ireland will be able to do the same in 2 weeks, but we don't have the ball handling skills - some of the best French moves tonight involved incredible offloads from 3 or 4 forwards - I can't see POC or many of our pack being able to do the same.

anonymous_joe

Sorry lads, how many WC's do they have?

They weren't that bad for Christ's sake.

stephen_n

Risteard wrote: »

France laid out what is required. Beat them up front and we should rip them apart in the backs.

Not really very likely to happen though is it, there is a huge difference between the Irish pack and the French. I really doubt we have the physicallity to put it to them like that. Having said that if ROG is on any sort of form with his passing and plays up flat I'd say we will cause their defence problems!

anonymous_joe

stephen_n wrote: »

Not really very likely to happen though is it, there is a huge difference between the Irish pack and the French. I really doubt we have the physicallity to put it to them like that. Having said that if ROG is on any sort of form with his passing and plays up flat I'd say we will cause their defence problems!

Aye. Pretty much.

Although.

1. Healy v 1. Mtawawawa... That Zimbawean fella - Saffer
2. Du Plessis v 2. Erm. Cronin now is it? - Du Plessis
3. Hayes v 3. Smit - Smit
4. Botha v O'Callaghan - Botha
5. Matfield v O'Connell - O'Connell
6. Ferris v Burger - Ferris?
7. Wallace - Brussow - hmmm. Young 'un at the breakdown
8. Kanowksi v Heaslip - tough to call.

Even so, they've a much more powerful pack than us I think...

d'Oracle

A huge amount of this team are From the Bulls.

So.
Lions Tour.
Super 14 all the way to the final.
Currie Cup all the way to the Final.
Tri Nations.

They are physically fubar at this stage.
That, IMO, is why they don't look so good ATM.
Which fills me with confidence for Croker.

Also to OP.
Fiji Ran them close, yes. But don't forget Fiji also beat Grand Slam champions Wales in the group stages. Which says a lot for their form.

For my bucks, they are easily the best team in the world.
If they were in top form and rested I would be expecting a merciless shooing from the Boks.

johnnysmack

it doesnt matter who they played in the world cup, they won it, thats all that matters. if ireland won it by only playing the lesser teams while the big teams knocked each other out, we wouldnt be complaining. they are world champions for another 2 yrs and deserve it. but saying that i think they're vulnerable at min and definitely think ireland can beat them. and ireland can beat oz too. none of the tri nations should be feared at the min.

d'Oracle

All things said, I am more concerned about Aussie.

Their back line is feckin searing.
Actually 6 up is feckin searing.

ALH-06

phog wrote: »

The WC was a bit of a joke ok and SA certainly looked poor tonight but I wouldn't be too confident of Ireland ripping them apart just yet.

SA did not look poor tonight. Don't take the intensity of this game out of context - that was a viciously physical match that was extremely tightly contested in the contact area. True test match intensity.

There were handling errors from both sides, but that's not the sign of a bad team. It's a sign of a team lacking in cohesion, and in this respect both SA and France will only improve.

Justind wrote: »

They won the RWC final.
That, in my book anyway, makes them genuine World Champions.
They also won the Tri Nations this year and deservedly so.

SA were fortunate in the 2007 RWC. Winning one game doesn't make you world beaters. But they beat a good Lions side and were very deserved winners of the '09 Tri Nations. So now, they're the team to beat.

Tim Robbins

Stick_man wrote: »

They are a fine, functional side. The world cup kinda fell into their lap though. If the lions selected the right side in the first test then the series was theirs. That being said De Villers and Steyn are huge losses to them. We will be all out to beat them.

World Cup is a cup competition which doesn't always produce the best team winning it.

I think we are seeing SH teams not at anything close to their best at Autumn Internationals.

Too many of their top players are playing overseas and ineligible to play. You could make a case that Warwick should be in the Oz squad, JDV in the SA squad and many others but they are not.

Also, they are using these tests to blood new players and they rest others who have had long seasons.

I'd like to see the AI ramped into a tournment style. Where something meaningful was won. Perhaps it could be joined up with the Summer internationals and some competition format could be proposed.

OldJay

Funny thing is that if Ireland won the RWC in whatever manner, Ireland would be World Champions. :rolleyes:

toomevara

Their name is on the trophy. They are world champions. No amount of spurious discussion will alter that single salient fact. Locked.