AAI 10k Road Race Championships

gmurran

Looks like the Great Ireland Run and the AAI 10k Road Race Championships are combined this year in the Phoenix Park.

Navan was a good race last year for the AAI 10K so I hope this doesn't mean paying the rip off €30 something quid just to enter the AAI race but it looks like it will.

bewleys berry

Yes that was my first thought exactly too.....The Great Ireland Run is a good race held over a good course, but it draws very few standard club runners as the price is just too high for a normal 10k....... i did this race about three years ago, and while I enjoyed it, I haven't done it since, because it's just not value for money....... will be interesting to see whether the AAI can work out a deal for us.... I reckon not!

topper75

Disappointed. Not alone in relation to potential price hike, but it is best to move the 10K Nationals around the provinces. Of course, this moving around must involve Dublin at some point.

ecoli

topper75 wrote: »

Disappointed. Not alone in relation to potential price hike, but it is best to move the 10K Nationals around the provinces. Of course, this moving around must involve Dublin at some point.

I'm still a bit confused as to how they can do this. I was under the assumption that the top guys (Mottram, Tergat and Fagan) usually recieve an appearance fee for this race. Does this mean that the title will now just be fairly meaningless to the winner as will just be the likes of Fagan or that year in year out?
Not that i planned on winning it or anything but i sure the guys will feel a bit cheated as it will drop the number of standard club runners to do it (mainly because of the price for a championship race)

Stupid_Private

ecoli wrote: »

Does this mean that the title will now just be fairly meaningless to the winner as will just be the likes of Fagan or that year in year out?

I don't get this. Surely what Athletics Ireland needs is the likes of Fagan winning. Our top athletes competing on home soil for national titles. This is the only televised race in Ireland so it'll be great to have an Irish athlete to the front of both races creating a bit of a buzz around the national title.

Racing Flat

Stupid_Private wrote: »

I don't get this. Surely what Athletics Ireland needs is the likes of Fagan winning. Our top athletes competing on home soil for national titles. This is the only televised race in Ireland so it'll be great to have an Irish athlete to the front of both races creating a bit of a buzz around the national title.

Perhaps what he means is coming 2nd to Fagan in a National Champs where you are 2nd across the line would be more pleasing than coming 2nd to him but being 15th over the line? Maybe that the National Champs will just get kind of lost within the bigger race, but then that happens with the marathon anyhow. I know that at one club AGM recently, there was a bit of a discussion about putting a motion in relation to moving all championship races, including the marathon back to stand alone events.

Of course it also means that the winner of the Nat Champs may well have a group (of international elite runners not in the champs race) to work with / pace off / wind shield from so changes the tactics somewhat - the winner won't necessarily have to 'make a break' but may be able to let the group do the work. the best runner will still probably win, but it will change the race dynamic a bit.

It is odd though that a race (10k Nat Champs) will suddenly go from 10 odd Euro to 30Euro in the space of a year. will also be interesting to see how clubs react - some clubs (? all) pay their team members entry to Championship races, so this cost will sudeenly plummet from around 60Euro to 180Euro.That's of course if there's a fee for teams for this race? Maybe I'm mistaken...

shels4ever

Stupid_Private wrote: »

I don't get this. Surely what Athletics Ireland needs is the likes of Fagan winning. Our top athletes competing on home soil for national titles. This is the only televised race in Ireland so it'll be great to have an Irish athlete to the front of both races creating a bit of a buzz around the national title.

Yep i'd agree there, its a race that i was planning on next year 9aAi 10k not bupa) but no so sure now, i'd be stuck back in the pack and don't think its a great race for a team race, due to numbers.. unless they have a zone for club runners too at the start.

thirtyfoot

Racing Flat wrote: »

It is odd though that a race (10k Nat Champs) will suddenly go from 10 odd Euro to 30Euro in the space of a year. will also be interesting to see how clubs react - some clubs (? all) pay their team members entry to Championship races, so this cost will sudeenly plummet from around 60Euro to 180Euro.That's of course if there's a fee for teams for this race? Maybe I'm mistaken...

Thats what I am wondering. How much will it be to enter? Will clubs athletes (at the risk of sounding elitist;)) get priority in the pens? How much of entry fee will AAI get? How much will the British racing organisation get? Will the British running organisation have to pay more than than the permit than say a 50 member club in Co Clare would have to pay for their 5 mile road race? Surely, the standard race entry fee for AAI champs races will have to apply for AAI members otherwise they are having a laugh and will be greasing the pockets of a professional race organiser from outside the country purely so its one race less to organise.

ecoli

Probably didnt make that clear. I think the idea that lads who will have been looking to challenge for the title ( like Sean Connolly and Vinny Mulvey) now have to pay an extra 20 euro to fund lads appearance fees in their own national championships.
While i am all for seeing Fagan running in national championships i think the Championship feel of a race is competely lost if neither athlete nor audience know where they stand in terms of the Championships until the results list is posted much after the race because they have figure out where they stand in terms of people eligible for championship criteria.
I know that this is the way in most Marathons etc but how many people could tell without Sergei was in the lead of the National Championship until after the race (without the help of the announcers). In this way while the media exposure of the race increases it also becomes overshadowed by the BUPA.
How many of the thousands of participants will care that they are a part of the National Championships. They do this race for their personal achievement (be it finishing, raising charity and overall general fitness). Only affect then that this really has on the championship is annoys the regular participants with the price hike without any really benefit to the stature of the race

aburke

Have a go...
http://registration.greatrun.org/login.aspx?StreamID=234
Tell me how you got on when selecting your club?

bazman

I think this is a good idea, at least to try for a year. It should make the national championships more competitive and increase coverage of the event. In recent years top Irish competition was split between both events which doesn't make sense - particularly since both events were held so close together. It's a similar story for the national half and phoneix park half.

30 euro isn't that much - a fair price for an event that includes chip timing in my opinion. Like last year I expect club runners standard will be entitled to elite entries & associated free/reduced entry.

Hopefully they avoid running down the glen to make it a fast course. Will look forward to it ...

Enduro

And in case anyone doesn't know... Bazman is a top 5 finisher from this year's nationals, so that's a view from the top!

TheRoadRunner

bazman wrote: »

30 euro isn't that much - a fair price for an event that includes chip timing in my opinion. Like last year I expect club runners of a reasonable standard will be entitled to elite entries & associated free/reduced entry. I'm sure there will be some 'arrangement'.

Maybe so but I'd rather pay a tenner !

umpire bat

The price issue will stick in the craw of the club athletes who in general dont participate in the Great Ireland Run.
The thousands who do these high priced high profile races seem to be eluding the clubs. Maybe this presents the club scene a real opportunity to recruit.

There is a HUGE opportunity for Dublin clubs to attract these GIR athletes. If some of these proved proficient at distance running it would cut down on the numbers of promising youngsters they persistantly pester and coax in from the commuter counties.

umpire bat

Bazman.....30 euro for chip timing reasonable value.
Armagh 10 was £15 on the day!!!
Speaking of VALUE FOR MONEY... Dunshaughlin and Na Fianna in Meath both had chip timing , goody bags post race refreshments, videos and t shirts for half the price of the Great Ireland Run....

Both races within 20 mins drive of the west rather than east of the M50.

thirtyfoot

<slight veer off topic> Is anyone else picking up an anti-Dublin clubs bias from Umpire Bat or is it just me? Doesn't make any sense for a non Dub to have that opinion, sure Dublin clubs are full of lads from the country.

My own story is sad one. Running through a bog in the midlands back in the '80s, I was bundled into a van and trafficked to Dublin and a well known north Dublin sweat shop. I have been forced to run against my will. I was water boarded, pestered and threathened with been turned into a race walker and eventually relented and became a Dublin club member. I now take heroin, support Shamrock Rovers and take brown sauce in my tea. The upside is my running improved and it was easier to run on a real track (even one with a roof) than in the bog. There are pros and cons but I do miss my family. I send money home (or medals when I win some) as much as I can. <back on topic>

Hard Worker

Tingle wrote: »

<slight veer off topic> Is anyone else picking up an anti-Dublin clubs bias from Umpire Bat or is it just me? Doesn't make any sense for a non Dub to have that opinion, sure Dublin clubs are full of lads from the country.

My own story is sad one. Running through a bog in the midlands back in the '80s, I was bundled into a van and trafficked to Dublin and a well known north Dublin sweat shop. I have been forced to run against my will. I was water boarded, pestered and threathened with been turned into a race walker and eventually relented and became a Dublin club member. I now take heroin, support Shamrock Rovers and take brown sauce in my tea. The upside is my running improved and it was easier to run on a real track (even one with a roof) than in the bog. There are pros and cons but I do miss my family. I send money home (or medals when I win some) as much as I can. <back on topic>

I've seen you go through some of that torture, though I've never seen you at a Rovers match.

umpire bat

The word anti is your interpretation.Your rant which included references to Rovers etc was quite puerile and a bit touchy.
The facts are plain to be seen and does nothing to encourage young Dublin athletes when their eyes are wiped by imported culchies.One club with red and white singlets won national club medals in 2009 with a team of four from Meath.

I merely stated that there were races offering good value with chip timing and MORE for good prices.
There is an opportunity for clubs to encourage new comers. They could be a real asset to any club. Just encouaraging to them put them at ease about the club scene.

Condo131

bazman wrote: »

30 euro isn't that much - a fair price for an event that includes chip timing in my opinion.

What's Ballycotton going to be? - €15 max.

bazman wrote: »

Like last year I expect club runners of a reasonable standard will be entitled to elite entries & associated free/reduced entry.

What's a 'reasonable standard'? Remember we're talking about the National Championship here - everyone (in the Championship) running against each other - with a two tier entry for the same race???
I'm presuming that your 'reasonable standard' is probably going to mean, what, top 20 finish? That equates to 32:45 this year. As I said we're talking about a National Championship, so all categories have to be catered for. Surely a 'reasonable standard' would include all team medalists. Bronze medal for M50 team was 40:59.

bazman wrote: »

I'm sure there will be some 'arrangement'.

'arrangements' have a nasty habit of being in place for those who are 'in the know'. Imho, everything should be in the open instead.

topper75 wrote: »

`...... but it is best to move the 10K Nationals around the provinces. Of course, this moving around must involve Dublin at some point.

Between 2003 and 2006, it was in Stranorlar, Sligo, Bilboa and Tinryland. Other than that it has been in Navan. I don't think moving from Navan to Dublin constitutes 'moving around the provinces'.

bazman

OK, maybe 30euro is a bit much. I don't race that often, so I dont mind paying slightly over the odds for a well organised race with chip timing. I'd expect there will be a concession for ALL club athletes - otherwise clubs may boycott the event as a lot of clubs pay the entry fees for their athletes for national championships. Last year everything was public on the website (elite entry etc) so I would expect the same this year.

The main point I'm making is that this move makes sense to enhance competition in a national championship - last year the Great Ireland 10k was more competitive than the national 10k (I ran both so I know) and it's annoying that they were run so close together (only 2 weeks apart). I would like to see a bigger gap between both races or for them to be joined together ...

Clum

ecoli wrote: »

the Championship feel of a race is competely lost if neither athlete nor audience know where they stand in terms of the Championships until the results list is posted much after the race because they have figure out where they stand in terms of people eligible for championship criteria.

Very good point. The championship is totally swollowed up by an event consisting of foreign elite athletes and mass fun runners.

ecoli wrote: »

Only affect then that this really has on the championship is annoys the regular participants with the price hike without any really benefit to the stature of the race

Very true

bazman wrote: »

30 euro isn't that much - a fair price for an event that includes chip timing in my opinion. Like last year I expect club runners of a reasonable standard will be entitled to elite entries & associated free/reduced entry. I'm sure there will be some 'arrangement'.

What's a resonable standard? I'm only a 37.xx minute 10k'er but would like to run for my club to make up the team in the team category. At my level, would I get a reduced entry? What about the masters? Some of the ladies in the older categories were finishing just under 60 minutes last year. Athletes in the masters categories do know each other and I don't think it'd be fair on the leading masters in w50 or m60 (for example) to be surrounded by 100s of people in fancy dress hampering their view on who they are competing against.

shels4ever

Clum wrote: »

Very good point. The championship is totally swollowed up by an event consisting of foreign elite athletes and mass fun runners.



Very true



What's a resonable standard? I'm only a 37.xx minute 10k'er but would like to run for my club to make up the team in the team category. At my level, would I get a reduced entry? What about the masters? Some of the ladies in the older categories were finishing just under 60 minutes last year. Athletes in the masters categories do know each other and I don't think it'd be fair on the leading masters in w50 or m60 (for example) to be surrounded by 100s of people in fancy dress hampering their view on who they are competing against.

For the down the pack club runner this race would be terrible for, I would have planned to run this race next year maybe jsut sub 40 mins, but the amount of traffic in the Bupa race for this really puts me off.

thirtyfoot

Collating results would take a while as well seeing as aburke pointed out there is no facility to input Club in the entry form. Would it be a case of trawling through the results and saying 'he is club x I think', 'she is O55 I think'.

I can see the benefit of having the marathon as part of DCM as marathon is such a rarely run event, but a 10k can be run several times within a season by most athletes.

aburke

Tingle wrote: »

Collating results would take a while as well seeing as aburke pointed out there is no facility to input Club in the entry form.

Ahh its worse that that!

You can only select a UK club when entering the Irish national 10km!

Can't believe nobody else spotted that ;-)
Alan

bazman

Tingle wrote: »

Collating results would take a while as well seeing as aburke pointed out there is no facility to input Club in the entry form. Would it be a case of trawling through the results and saying 'he is club x I think', 'she is O55 I think'.

I'd expect clubs to have to enter their teams separately as is done at the moment for championships, so what you put on entry as team won't matter. If you're a club runner I wouldn't be entering this race until entry process is clarified.

I'm quite surprised by the amount of negative vibes towards this idea. If club runners are not happy with this development, now is the time to tell your secretaries. There is still time for this to change as I doubt the 2010 calander is finalised yet ...

TheRoadRunner

bazman wrote: »

I'm quite surprised by the amount of negative vibes towards this idea. If club runners are not happy with this development, now is the time to tell your secretaries. There is still time for this to change as I doubt the 2010 calander is finalised yet ...

I'm not really. This race is runner unfriendly (IMO) unless you can get up right behind the elites. Also I don't see why the AAI feel the need to incorporate the national 10k in with this race. Last year the national 10k had over 300 finishers, the year before over 260 so cost shouldn't be an issue. If club athletes are given a pen behind the elites and charged the normal entrance fee for the national 10k I would have no problems with it being incorporated into this race and would race myself.

shels4ever

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

I'm not really. This race is runner unfriendly (IMO) unless you can get up right behind the elites. Also I don't see why the AAI feel the need to incorporate the national 10k in with this race. Last year the national 10k had over 300 finishers, the year before over 260 so cost shouldn't be an issue. If club athletes are given a pen behind the elites and charged the normal entrance fee for the national 10k I would have no problems with it being incorporated into this race and would race myself.

+1
Last time i did this race I passed a women with a pram at 2k , Thats why I like smaller races so much more.

aburke

On balance, I support the idea.
If nothing else, its worth giving it a go, and see what the outcome is.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

A few of the issues raised in this thread would need to be addressed though.

Our club probably won't be able to pay the entry fee though - we normally pay for all AAI events except the marathon.

Condo131

aburke wrote: »

Our club probably won't be able to pay the entry fee though - we normally pay for all AAI events except the marathon.

Same with our Club - on both counts.

aburke

Maybe we're looking at this the wrong way.

As members of athletic clubs, we should be asking ourselves why aren't the people who run the BUPA 10km NOT club members?
What gives?
Why not join a club?

Started new thread re
Why not join a club?
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=62983717

footing

umpire bat wrote: »

The price issue will stick in the craw of the club athletes who in general dont participate in the Great Ireland Run.
The thousands who do these high priced high profile races seem to be eluding the clubs. Maybe this presents the club scene a real opportunity to recruit.

There is a HUGE opportunity for Dublin clubs to attract these GIR athletes. If some of these proved proficient at distance running it would cut down on the numbers of promising youngsters they persistantly pester and coax in from the commuter counties.

Tell us more about these youngsters....?
Which brings us to the nub of the question. Why do people not join their local running club, many of which have "jogging" sections?
Are they happy running alone with their water bottles and iPods? Do they not mind paying between Eu30 and 70 for races the normal club athlete wouldn't touch because they know there is much better value out there?
When it comes to AAI, why don't they support promotions organised by their own clubs? Or iconic races such as the Ballycotton "10"? Why are charities given dates for races, forcing clubs to change long-standing arrangements for their own events? Rumour has it that the St Patrick's Festival 5k won't get a permit because it "clashes" with a road race in Meath that got a permit application in first (or somewhere - anyone know anything more about this? )
Why on earth is AAI supporting a commercial race such as the GIR, which annoys the hell out of most of their members?
Finally (phew!): is there any truth in the rumour that the Irish Runner wasn't allowed to accept an ad for a BHAA race?

mrak

Condo131 wrote: »

Between 2003 and 2006, it was in Stranorlar, Sligo, Bilboa and Tinryland. Other than that it has been in Navan. I don't think moving from Navan to Dublin constitutes 'moving around the provinces'.

It was also in Athenry in 2008(or was it 07?) I think - great race it was too. Pedantic Pat.

meathcountysec

footing wrote: »

Rumour has it that the St Patrick's Festival 5k won't get a permit because it "clashes" with a road race in Meath that got a permit application in first (or somewhere - anyone know anything more about this? )

Definitely not a Meath road race. There is a permit application in for 17th March but afaik the St. Patrick's Festival 5K runs on the Sunday because the Guards don't want a road race in Dublin city centre on the same day as the parade. Indeed, a Meath race swapped dates with the 5K for this reason the year before last.

wizwill

meathcountysec wrote: »

Definitely not a Meath road race. There is a permit application in for 17th March but afaik the St. Patrick's Festival 5K runs on the Sunday because the Guards don't want a road race in Dublin city centre on the same day as the parade. Indeed, a Meath race swapped dates with the 5K for this reason the year before last.

I hope the St Patricks day festival 5k is run again next year, one of my favourite races of this year.

footing

wizwill wrote: »

I hope the St Patricks day festival 5k is run again next year, one of my favourite races of this year.

The race has received a permit for Sunday March 14 2010; the original application and cheque went astray in the AAI office, but happily for all, MSB had copies.

aburke

aburke wrote: »

Ahh its worse that that!

You can only select a UK club when entering the Irish national 10km!

Can't believe nobody else spotted that ;-)
Alan

Irish clubs now included on the form.
Boards AC not included.
I'm waiting from word from AAI re: club entry before I enter though.

Raighne

Personally, I'm disappointed with this move, especially if it means starting with the main crowd which can't but mean reduced performances in that chaos.

Now, this may be my preference, but lining up in a small field of all club-jerseys and not a superman custome in sight, is exactly the type of atmosphere a National race should have.

That's what makes the club cross-country so great: It's still focused about the running and for small scores of fans who are there to appreciate the sport and not a carnival.

aburke

I'm told that AAI club athletes will be able to enter directly via the AAI.

Bruce Wayne 2

My own thoughts on this one are that anything that can help breakdown the barrier between club running and "hobby" running is a welcome initiative. The club runners will all make their way to the top at the start as they always do so there wont be an issue at the start and pre and post race - club and non club runners will be mixing together so surely that can only be a positive thing.

Club runners shouldn't think their too good for running with the masses and fun runners shouldn't think they are too slow to run in the same race as club runners. There are enough races on the calendar to satisfy all levels so why not have one where everyone competes together...and on TV too which only adds to the excitement.

Raighne

Bruce Wayne 2 wrote: »

My own thoughts on this one are that anything that can help breakdown the barrier between club running and "hobby" running is a welcome initiative. The club runners will all make their way to the top at the start as they always do so there wont be an issue at the start and pre and post race - club and non club runners will be mixing together so surely that can only be a positive thing.

Club runners shouldn't think their too good for running with the masses and fun runners shouldn't think they are too slow to run in the same race as club runners. There are enough races on the calendar to satisfy all levels so why not have one where everyone competes together...and on TV too which only adds to the excitement.

I don't see this initiative as having any chance of breaking down the barrier between club running and hobby running. "Hobby" runners see club runners all the time at all sorts of events, this will be no different, in fact worse with the big crowd drowning any chance of perceiving the National 10k as a separate event.

There's already tons of races satisfying the general masses, there are very few races remaining outside track meets, IMRA trials, and the cross-country competition, solely for club runners.

When you're part of a competition its helpful to see how you are faring in it, this will be impossible in the Phoenix Park. It's not a question of elitist attitude. I'll care as little about Paul Tergat on the day as about anyone not participating in the club competition.

bewleys berry

the national 10k being incorporated into the great ireland run can only be a good thing, cos it will flesh out the club runner standard behind all the elites...i ran in this in 2007 and didn't have a great run, yet was among some of the first ''irish'' club runners home (albeit not within the same park as the elites:D) - which showed the lack of strength in depth.....

have to say though that my plan for this years race is scuppered as i was planning on taking part in my wheelbarrow:pac: http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/gir-aai-entry-form.pdf UNDER REASONS OF SAFETY:P

Packieenright

There are 3 main categories to be addressed:

1. Standard: 3 tiers in the one race

1. Elite/professional - Paul Tergat, Lebid, Mottram, Benita Johnson, M<31:00, F<34:00; money’s their goal
2. Club runner – from Seán Connoly, Mulvey, Curley & Kealey to the average person, 29:30 – 45:00, medals are their goal
3. Fun/non runner – 40:00+, to finish it is their goal

I think this is great. Our best people in cat 2 often put it up to people in cat 1 despite having to combine their mileage with work, family & social life without the sleeping comforts & professional structures that cat 1 people enjoy.

Likewise cat 3 people can also be dark horses, can get talking to club people at the cup of tea after it and voila – we’ve new people involved in our sport. And regardless of standard, new people are always welcome into clubs with open arms. This is how many of us took it up in the first place after all.

Packieenright

2. Money: We all know what that race was always about and BUPA’s intentions, other entrepreneurs have followed suit & set up their own road races around Ireland with the goals of numbers & profit far above quality or medals. There’s nothing illegal about this in a free enterprise state. The price won’t affect the individual, but will affect a club who was entering e.g. 20 athletes into it. Clubs have a right to boycott it for that reason especially in these financial times. But I expect that most distance running clubs will grin & bear it.

Packieenright

3. Goal: AAI incorporated it into the BUPA due to
1. The 2 race’s original close proximity in the calendar
2. To increase the quality in the BUPA & bridge the gap betweem cat 1 to cat 3
3. To get our national championships televised

The acid test of this race will be if it achieves this goal (television) properly. Or will our club runners just be ‘lost among the crowd’ as most of you have already said? Will cameramen be able to go down to the bloke who’s 18th overall in a Clonliffe singlet or girl who’s 40th human in it and pick them out to say ‘this person is winning now’ in their commentary? Will TV viewers care? Do the media care? (Seeing as they have some control in what we will like & won’t like about life) The London marathon has the same outcry from club runners (and Dublin to a smaller extent). You’re not televised unless you’re Paula Radcliffe or else a fella going around dressed up as Ronald McDonald.

But in fairness to BUPA (and I’m sorry for attacking you in this) – any day that such a minority sport like running is televised live is a huge success. Would the AAI have been able to achieve this for a standalone national championships? Well they did for the indoors & outdoors (although as highlights a few days later). But not since the DCM in the late 80’s has an AAI road event been televised live. And then it was mysteriously cut off. So we must thank BUPA’s financial clout for this, maybe they’re better able to dramatise the sport than its own governing body is.

Eitherway it’s an experiment, you need these things along the way as guinea pigs. AAI can then decide what they’ll do for next year. I don’t think it’ll hurt people too badly (apart from financially). Sometimes it’s good that you started in the middle of the crowd – coz it prevents you sprinting off. Since it began, the National 10k is an unknown event to the average Joe, so having it on TV has to be a good move.

Krusty_Clown

Just for clarification, BUPA has nothing to do with the race in Ireland, right? They are a sponsor for a number of the other races (primarily in the UK) but do not sponsor the Great Ireland Run. The Great Ireland run is organized by Nova International. So it is just a 'for profit' race (again, nothing wrong with this), but they (Nova) don't even have to consider the community sponsorship and branding aspects that a sponsor like BUPA would have to consider, if they still existed as an entity in the Irish market.