HAS ANYBODY GOT A LICENCE FOR A CENTER FIRE PISTOL

.270 remington

hi all
its looks like a back door ban for center fire pistols can any body say other wise?????????

Cass

Don't want to p**s on your parade but this question has been put forward a few times in the last few weeks and have gone either unanswered or answered with something other than a yes.

I'd like to see someone come on and say yes i got mine. Not "i know of a lad who knows a lad, who is a friend of a friend who got one". An actual fully licensed pistol holder. I've heard of 36 people that have "gotten" them but still no letter, license or any direct indication/proof that they have.

I'm always the optimist but when unrestricted licenses, grant letters, receipts and everything else were issued people couldn't get them posted here quick enough but when it comes to pistols..............nothing.

rowa

.270 remington wrote: »

hi all
its looks like a back door ban for center fire pistols can any body say other wise?????????

it was a dirty sneaky trick from a dirty sneaky government , i haven't heard or seen anyone getting a licence for a centrefire pistol and have even heard of people being refused licences for .22lr pistols such as the cz cadet and p22 because they're "military style" pistols ! :mad:

Sparks

I have heard that at least one well-known WA1500 (is it WA or PPC?) shooter has been licenced for his CF pistol. But reports of successful licences are sparse. I've only heard of two cases myself so far.

Bananaman

I think we have all heard about c/f pistol licenses

We have all also heard of the Loch Ness Monster, 3 Euro Pints and the ultimate black pudding.

None of us have ever seen one though.

B'Man

gofaster_s13

Bananaman wrote: »

I think we have all heard about c/f pistol licenses

We have all also heard of 3 Euro Pints .

B'Man

Three euro pints :eek: where is this place you speak of ??

:D

meathshooter

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

Three euro pints :eek: where is this place you speak of ??

:D

the dail bar

G17

I posted a question similar some time ago in desperation and think it only fair to post this to save peoples' nerves. Yes, I have seen and held in my hand a c/f lic. But I think with the current goings on it's best not to be hoo haaing about c/fs on a public forum, some will disagree and call for hoo haaing, I respect their right to hoo haa.

bunny shooter

rowa wrote: »

it was a dirty sneaky trick from a dirty sneaky government , i haven't heard or seen anyone getting a licence for a centrefire pistol and have even heard of people being refused licences for .22lr pistols such as the cz cadet and p22 because they're "military style" pistols ! :mad:

We were told those that had them before November 2008 could reapply and the applictions would be considered under stricter conditions and that is what happened. The problem is we weren't told that these stricter conditions would be impossible to satisfy unless you were a highly ranked & recognised international "bullseye" shooter, which I think we all know is possibly the only C/F licence granted so far.

What has happened is we were told something and we or someone has chosen to read more into it. Therefore we have not been lied to by the government. We didn't read or look for a copy of the "fine print"

None of my friends (x4) who have submitted applications for c/f licences have heard anything at all, yet there is one confirmed licence issued. Something smells rather badly.

rowa

bunny shooter wrote: »

We were told those that had them before November 2008 could reapply and the applictions would be considered under stricter conditions and that is what happened. The problem is we weren't told that these stricter conditions would be impossible to satisfy unless you were a highly ranked & recognised international "bullseye" shooter, which I think we all know is possibly the only C/F licence granted so far.

What has happened is we were told something and we or someone has chosen to read more into it. Therefore we have not been lied to by the government. We didn't read or look for a copy of the "fine print"

None of my friends (x4) who have submitted applications for c/f licences have heard anything at all, yet there is one confirmed licence issued. Something smells rather badly.

we were told that legitimate shooters had nothing to fear from this criminal justice bill - wrong, i probabily won't be able to re-licence the c.f. pistol i used at the authorized range i shoot at ever couple of weeks , AHern simply moved the definition of "legitimate shooter " to suit himself .
as for people applying for licences and hearing absolutely nothing , myself included , i personally think that the chief supers etc are waiting to see what action is going to be taken over all this , legal or otherwise.

Kimber

Ahhh Lads cmon,
We'll be grand, nod nod wink wink.

Any of us that have em will ge to keep them. nod, nod wink wink.
Keep it quite though, nod nod wink wink,

Bend over and say nothing. Nod nod wink, wink. It wont hurt nod nod wink wink.

Everytime I hear or read this. My minds eye shows me a picture of Gollumb on Lord of the Rings.

Sneaky, sneaky meaky, peekey, leaky, weeky, neeky, teeky,

bunny shooter

rowa wrote: »

....... i personally think that the chief supers etc are waiting to see what action is going to be taken over all this , legal or otherwise.

I have just had a call from a 'source' and it seems you are correct

rrpc

Kimber wrote: »

Ahhh Lads cmon,
We'll be grand, nod nod wink wink.

Any of us that have em will ge to keep them. nod, nod wink wink.
Keep it quite though, nod nod wink wink,

Bend over and say nothing. Nod nod wink, wink. It wont hurt nod nod wink wink.

Everytime I hear or read this. My minds eye shows me a picture of Gollumb on Lord of the Rings.

Sneaky, sneaky meaky, peekey, leaky, weeky, neeky, teeky,

You have my sympathies Kimber, what were you refused?

Kimber

And I know this Forum "as always" is being monitored.

I have thrown the bones on the floor and they tell me that Notes on strategies are being taken down to pre-emt a counter measure. That is if we let any slip.

The best test of a law is to fire it out to the peseants and see what they can conjur up.

I need rest now.

Kimber

rrpc wrote: »

You have my sympathies Kimber, what were you refused?

Na, Not refused. Just the sneaky peeky stuff.

Sparks

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

Three euro pints :eek: where is this place you speak of ??

Tesco.

It wasn't me!

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

Three euro pints :eek: where is this place you speak of ??

:D

Student nights.

rrpc

To answer the OP's question: according to a straw poll taken at the meeting in Abbeyleix on Saturday, 14 or 15 people present had got licences granted for centrefire pistols, and about 20 had been refused.

I believe there were a few 9mm's in the granted category.

So I'm told

Sparks

The results of the straw poll were :

Centerfire:
4 9mm licences granted
14 people know of licences granted
20 refusals of C/F items (19 x 9mm)
65 unknown status

Rimfire:
29 granted
2 refusals
31 unknown status

happyjack

We,ve had no restricted firearms licensed here in Kerry, met with our sole Chief Super for the whole of Kerry and he said that he will not issue any licenses for any class of restricted firearms as he deems them military and police guns.

So thats me refused, the only help he could offer me was to swop over to rimfire yoke thats on the list or go to court. I was granted my "Olympic 22 pistol". I showed him the medals I had won shooting CF pistol and he replied that I'd be good at olympic pistol so and should take that up!

I have failed to find one person who was been able to license any class of restricted firearm in the county, so at this stage I believe him when he says he hasent and he wont issue outside of a court case.

Theres a number of folks carrying stories about licenses issued in the county, but no hard proof to back it up.

Yep I do believe that the Gardai read these pages and that we educate them about target matters.


All I can say really is these are very sad times we live in.

rrpc

happyjack wrote: »

We,ve had no restricted firearms licensed here in Kerry, met with our sole Chief Super for the whole of Kerry and he said that he will not issue any licenses for any class of restricted firearms as he deems them military and police guns.

He thinks police or military use .22 rifles with a capacity of over 10 rounds, underlever rifles of .38 calibre or shotguns with a capacity of more than three rounds?

So thats me refused, the only help he could offer me was to swop over to rimfire yoke thats on the list or go to court. I was granted my "Olympic 22 pistol". I showed him the medals I had won shooting CF pistol and he replied that I'd be good at olympic pistol so and should take that up!

That is incredibly insulting :mad:

I have failed to find one person who was been able to license any class of restricted firearm in the county, so at this stage I believe him when he says he hasent and he wont issue outside of a court case.

That's just total abdication of responsibility :mad:

Yep I do believe that the Gardai read these pages and that we educate them about target matters.

Not well enough obviously :rolleyes:

rowa

rrpc wrote: »

He thinks police or military use .22 rifles with a capacity of over 10 rounds, underlever rifles of .38 calibre or shotguns with a capacity of more than three rounds?

That is incredibly insulting :mad:

That's just total abdication of responsibility :mad:

Not well enough obviously :rolleyes:

a member of the gardai being insulting ? what do you expect ? they are unaccountable practically unsackable public servants .

Sparks

happyjack wrote: »

We,ve had no restricted firearms licensed here in Kerry, met with our sole Chief Super for the whole of Kerry and he said that he will not issue any licenses for any class of restricted firearms as he deems them military and police guns.

Not giving legal advice, but that's in direct contempt of the ruling in Dunne -v- Donohue, in that it's creating a blanket ban which the Supreme Court found was usurping the authority of the Dail.

I'd hesitate and think long and hard before ever going to court, and I'd try the FPU and every other route first, but frankly, I can't see that Chief Super having a bright and shiny career if he's going about stating in public that he intends to subvert the Dail or the Supreme Court. Did he put it in writing perchance?

happyjack

Sparks wrote: »

Did he put it in writing perchance?

Yup He did.
I met with him this week and informed him of Dunne Vs Donoghue and he said the Donegal case takes legal precedent over Dunne Vs Donoghue. He said go to court if I don't like it. He is adamant that he will have none of these "military or police guns" in his district. Thats that cleared up then.

dCorbus

Happyjack - That's incredible!:eek:
Best of luck.

rrpc

happyjack wrote: »

Yup He did.
I met with him this week and informed him of Dunne Vs Donoghue and he said the Donegal case takes legal precedent over Dunne Vs Donoghue. He said go to court if I don't like it. He is adamant that he will have none of these "military or police guns" in his district. Thats that cleared up then.

I assume you (or he) means McCarron v Kearney which had absolutely nothing to do with Dunne v Donohue and was in the High Court (so couldn't set a precedent for the Supreme Court).

It was not a good case for us by any stretch. Incidentally, Superintendent Kearney passed away in March of this year at the very young age of 46.

ar dheis dé go raibh a anam.

happyjack

Heres a copy of my refusal letter;-

Dear Sir,

I refer to your recent application for a firearm certificate to license one XXXXXXXXXXXXX.( Centerfire target pistol ).

Having given careful consideration to your application and your reasons for seeking a license for one XXXXXXXXXXX, I have decided to refuse your application on the following grounds:

1. I am not satisfied that you have demonstrated that the weapon that you have sought to license is not the only weapon suitable for the purpose for which you require it.

2. I am not satisfied that you have a good reason for requiring a XXXXXXXXX.

3. I do not believe that a XXXXXXXXXXXXXX is necessary for the purpose that you stated that you require the firearm.

In considering your application I have taken into consideration the facts as disclosed in your application, public safety, the good order of the community, the proliferation of weapons within the division and within the community generally.

I have also taken into consideration the following factors which I consider to be of high importance: the calibre of the weapon and the ammunition amount / type that may be used; lethal effect or danger over distance; velocity of the ammunition, the size and shape of the gun; and the use to which the weapon may be put.

Please find attached a list of suitable Olympic Standard pistols which are non restricted and have been agreed with the Olympic council of Ireland and the National Target Shooters Association. Application for any one of these firearms can be made to your local Garda Superintendent.

If you wish to discuss the matter further, please contact my office at the above address and telephone number to arrange a meeting. I have to tell you however that I do not propose granting any firearm certicates for restricted firearms which are of a type used by military or police and which have the capability of using many rounds of ammunition without being re-loaded.

I feel it is appropriate to inform you that you are entitled to to appeal my decision to the district court but must notify the court of your intention to appeal within 30 days of receiving this correspondence- section 43 Criminal Justice act 2006 applies

The court may;

1. Confirm my decision.

2. Adjourn the proceedings and direct me to reconsider the decision in
light of the appeal proceedings, or

3. Allow the appeal

Yours

meathshooter

sorry to hear that.the gardai are now regulating sports.they will giving out penelty points next for having hurleys at a gaa match

homerhop

I do recall a few cases locally where fellas were summonsed for having hurleys in the back of their cars

shannonpowerlab

happyjack wrote: »

Heres a copy of my refusal letter;-

Dear Sir,

I refer to your recent application for a firearm certificate to license one XXXXXXXXXXXXX.( Centerfire target pistol ).

Having given careful consideration to your application and your reasons for seeking a license for one XXXXXXXXXXX, I have decided to refuse your application on the following grounds:

1. I am not satisfied that you have demonstrated that the weapon that you have sought to license is not the only weapon suitable for the purpose for which you require it.

2. I am not satisfied that you have a good reason for requiring a XXXXXXXXX.

3. I do not believe that a XXXXXXXXXXXXXX is necessary for the purpose that you stated that you require the firearm.

In considering your application I have taken into consideration the facts as disclosed in your application, public safety, the good order of the community, the proliferation of weapons within the division and within the community generally.

I have also taken into consideration the following factors which I consider to be of high importance: the calibre of the weapon and the ammunition amount / type that may be used; lethal effect or danger over distance; velocity of the ammunition, the size and shape of the gun; and the use to which the weapon may be put.

Please find attached a list of suitable Olympic Standard pistols which are non restricted and have been agreed with the Olympic council of Ireland and the National Target Shooters Association. Application for any one of these firearms can be made to your local Garda Superintendent.

If you wish to discuss the matter further, please contact my office at the above address and telephone number to arrange a meeting. I have to tell you however that I do not propose granting any firearm certicates for restricted firearms which are of a type used by military or police and which have the capability of using many rounds of ammunition without being re-loaded.

I feel it is appropriate to inform you that you are entitled to to appeal my decision to the district court but must notify the court of your intention to appeal within 30 days of receiving this correspondence- section 43 Criminal Justice act 2006 applies

The court may;

1. Confirm my decision.

2. Adjourn the proceedings and direct me to reconsider the decision in
light of the appeal proceedings, or

3. Allow the appeal

Yours

Amazing...They already seem to have it standardised...copy and paste...auto-pilot.

One day sone one might receive it with wrong name on it or someting...

Sparks

happyjack wrote: »

Yup He did.

But not in the refusal letter from what I can see

I met with him this week and informed him of Dunne Vs Donoghue and he said the Donegal case takes legal precedent over Dunne Vs Donoghue. He said go to court if I don't like it. He is adamant that he will have none of these "military or police guns" in his district. Thats that cleared up then.

Well, if he put it in writing that he's implementing a blanket ban, I'd hand that to my solicitors along with the Dunne findings and if the FPU couldn't sort it... well, I'll refrain from advising on the go/no-go, it's down to yourself and remember there are no guarantees with these things. But I can't see how he could claim a High Court case that went against precedent is able to trump a Supreme Court ruling and allow him to do something the Supreme Court found was basicly sedition.

happyjack

Thanks Sparks, sad thing is I had to go to the HC to get my kit in the first place, I'm not rushing into any thing, but the way I'm thinking at the present, well, I think I'd be better off going for a judicial review again. It looks like I have clear cut grounds on the advice I've got so far. Last one took 3.5 years and you would'nt believe the side line ****e inbetween, dont want to get into that here. I really enjoy my chosen sport, its really upsetting to have a policeman tell me which sport I can take part in and my past record stands for nothing. To his mind any target pistol shooting outside of the Olympics doesent exist.

In my opinion you can judge how free a country really is in the amount that the government and police show trust in its people. 45 million people have been killed in state run genocides since 1915, in every case private ownership of guns disappeared first. I dont trust countries where only the powers that be have firearms. I'm not saying that the US is a perfect model, no but how about this, I used to have a very good friend from Switerland, he told me that he stored a general purpose machine gun in his house with a range of 1.8k, he told me that everyone in his country stored military firearms at home, why, because everyone in his country did military service, something which is very common around the world. I dont think gun ownership is the answer to everything, but it is a good general indicator on how well your country runs and how it trusts its folks.

Target shooters in general are some of the most responible people in any country, not always, but mostly so. It has to go with the sport for safety sake. I think the Gardai are missing a great chance to step up to the plate and help show the world that Ireland has come away from a dark and sad past and things have improved.

To think that Irish men and women in Northern Ireland can and always were able to enjoy fullbore target shooting, and yet we cant manage it down here.

Well thats my two pence worth.

HJ

SIG

Gentlemen, Ladies, we are in a real meltdown position now. The Garda AKA Commissioner and Authority AKA the Minister have succeeded in arriving at a point where somewhere between 50% and 70% of previous licenced firearms will be removed from the system. If you think this is scare tactic, then await the outcome. Farmers are dropping their Guns, urban licence holders are forced to un burden themselves, old shooters have not the energy, persons with no land are dis enfranchised, precious old shotguns and rifles are not going to be re-licenced as their owners are tired and unable to deal with the new laws. Lots of old licence holders find this new regime beyond their ability to deal with. Q.E.D. Therefore right wing desire to remove the bulk of licenced firearms has been achieved. Well if we had thought that Michael McDowell S.C. as Minister was over zealous in the Criminal law act of 2006, it was a more balanced set of rules for the firearms arena. I await some information / help from either the NARGC or the other National shooting bodies to show direction where the average/ collector afficanido/ game shooter & gun person can see some restoration of a system balanced between the need for control and enjoyment of gun shooting.

rowa

SIG wrote: »

Gentlemen, Ladies, we are in a real meltdown position now. The Garda AKA Commissioner and Authority AKA the Minister have succeeded in arriving at a point where somewhere between 50% and 70% of previous licenced firearms will be removed from the system. If you think this is scare tactic, then await the outcome. Farmers are dropping their Guns, urban licence holders are forced to un burden themselves, old shooters have not the energy, persons with no land are dis enfranchised, precious old shotguns and rifles are not going to be re-licenced as their owners are tired and unable to deal with the new laws. Lots of old licence holders find this new regime beyond their ability to deal with. Q.E.D. Therefore right wing desire to remove the bulk of licenced firearms has been achieved. Well if we had thought that Michael McDowell S.C. as Minister was over zealous in the Criminal law act of 2006, it was a more balanced set of rules for the firearms arena. I await some information / help from either the NARGC or the other National shooting bodies to show direction where the average/ collector afficanido/ game shooter & gun person can see some restoration of a system balanced between the need for control and enjoyment of gun shooting.

don't hold your breath .

SIG

Rowa
What Breath should I hold. I believe that the numbers of licenced firearms will be well restricted. can you prove different ?

Sparks

SIG, he was agreeing with you but didn't think the NARGC were going to solve the problem...

SIG

Gentlemen, ladies, What my post was made for , was to try and get a real movement for the whole shooting community to have a chance to get a united front to move our sport / enjoyment / love / intrest / and involvment in all things game and country for our mutual benefit. We need to have a united front to fight the serious reactionary law that has been fosted on us.

SIG

Sparks, you are a sage on this forum, what can we do. lets get a bit millitant for our loves and sports. Plain talking and action - Man.

Sparks

I don't really think of myself as a sage.
A thyme, sometimes, a basil every so often, but never a sage.

As to generating a united front with rhetoric... that'd be attempt #57 to do so by my estimate, on this forum alone. It's a bad idea. It's not getting better with practice.

SIG

Sparks, I was at the meeting in abbeyleix re Restricted licences. I would have been delighted to leave that meeting with the understanding that shooting brethern in Ireland were going forward to do battle with the stupid law that is the current governing regime. I believe that the shooting / gun fraternity need to be united now or we will never recover. I am a member of 3 insurance / compensation funds. Solidaridity not division will succeed.

Sparks

Oh, and just for the record, generally when you try to pin our hassles on a specific ideology, we pin it on the left-wing pinko commie hippies. Not the right wing reactionaries, 'cos that's who we're meant to be.

Most of our issues spread from the political expediency pursued by successive Ministers - frankly, I think you're attributing to ideology what's far more readily explained by laziness, political greed, and outright lack of any degree of interest in us by successive Ministers looking to try to keep their Merc's. But hey, I'm a cynic.

Sparks

SIG wrote: »

Sparks, I was at the meeting in abbeyleix re Restricted licences.

Which meeting? There's been more than one in Abbeyleix on that topic, organised by different groups.

SIG

ouch, I am sorry to pique your spirit. I aslo cook, 38 years of catering. Anyway I ONLY want our community to succeed in defeating the extreme mad law that has now been enacted. We are badly served by it.

Sparks

Yeah, you can't defeat a law SIG. You can lobby to have it changed or repealed; you can suggest amendments to it; you can challange it's constitutionality in the courts; you can even run for a TD's seat, win and vote against the bill introducing it; but you don't "defeat" law, law just is. You might as well try to defeat the sky.

SIG

Oh boy am I touching your inners. I Will ask if it is possible for this forum to move from touchy bits from one to one, to find a way to get a real movement for our mutual aim, to get some better dealing from the powers that be, so that we can have a fair. reasonable, and better licencing of sporting firearms.

Sparks

Ask away.
Could you do it in better phrased english so more people than just yourself understand what you're asking?

rrpc

SIG wrote: »

Gentlemen, ladies, What my post was made for , was to try and get a real movement for the whole shooting community to have a chance to get a united front to move our sport / enjoyment / love / intrest / and involvment in all things game and country for our mutual benefit. We need to have a united front to fight the serious reactionary law that has been fosted on us.

Funny enough, I've not seen too much law in any of the refusals dished out so far.

Plenty of rhetoric, some emotion, a dash of FUD and a soupcon of ignorance.

Oops, I forgot the bucketfuls of insults :P

But not much law (except the stuff that was wrong) :rolleyes:

SIG

Sparks, please dont do that type of thing - defeatest - we cant change things- Maybe some day we may meet, and you will be convinced of the right to challange.I have never walked away from a challange. I believe that as citizens we must do all that we can to assert out rights. That is the basis of our system. I would like to see more fight in our communiuty of gun users - that is why i started this . I am mad busy otherwise like most of us trying to survire.

rrpc

SIG wrote: »

Sparks, please dont do that type of thing - defeatest - we cant change things- Maybe some day we may meet, and you will be convinced of the right to challange.I have never walked away from a challange. I believe that as citizens we must do all that we can to assert out rights. That is the basis of our system. I would like to see more fight in our communiuty of gun users - that is why i started this . I am mad busy otherwise like most of us trying to survire.

Rights :rolleyes:

We have the right when refused to take it to the District Court and challenge it. Everyone refused should do that at the very least.

That's about the only right we have.

Sparks

SIG wrote: »

Sparks, please dont do that type of thing - defeatest

I'm not being defeatist, I'm just pointing out that you're thinking you can defeat a law. You don't. You change a law. It's a mite more complicated than you might think, it's not a 'rah, rah, rah!' sort of thing, it's long and tedious and boring and thankless and not remotely interesting after the first year, and frankly, noone in our community really gives a darn about the process till it's over and waaaaaay too late to do anything about it, at which point they'll suggest we do twenty things we might have been able to try if they'd all volunteered to help five years earlier.

So here's a suggestion - skip the empty rhetoric and actually do something. Yourself. Find out who's working on this and volunteer; and if there's noone, start into it yourself.

I would like to see more fight in our communiuty of gun users - that is why i started this . I am mad busy otherwise like most of us trying to survire.

Ah, I see. You'd like to see something done, but you're too busy, so the rest of us should do it for you. Well, that's honest at least. It's still the 2% rule though.

SIG

Gentlemen, ladies,
I do not require that you insult me.
I wish only to help.
If by that is which you wish to silence.
Then I will allow invective to succeed.
Perhaps truth and learing has become
the very deficit
has allowed our @mutual@ foes to win.#

I retire from the fray -