Oh to live in... Copenhagen

cdaly_

Just back from a trip to Copenhagen. Wow! Bikes everywhere! Cycle lanes all over, priority over cars, cycle racks on every commuter/intercity train! Got a set of Magnetic Induction Lights to bring home. They're on about 60% of bikes there. Really cool and all.

All sorts of interesting bikes, ordinary commuters, trailer bikes, cargo bikes, kid box bikes. Oh, no hills kinda helps. Few serious road bikes around the city but I suspect that's just a matter of practicality. The road bike is for fun later...

monument

And please before somebody says it, no all the streets here in Dublin are not far smaller than Copenhagen.

Just even forgetting about cycling (god forbid on the cycling forum!), look at Copenhagen's many massively wide pedestrian crossing vs Dublin's tiny crossings. The width given in Dublin for pedestrian crossings is tiny. Even the newly widened ones on College Green seem small compared to Copenhagen.

As a side note*: All of the crossing in Copenhagen have the 'zebra' look, with painted white strips, but some are what planners here and the UK call zebra crossings and some are pelican crossings, ie some have flashing orange lights and some have pedestrians green/red lights. I do however recall a surprising amount of zebra crossing there (although that's not too hard coming from Ireland where some planners seem very much so against them).

* I have to love it when my side notes are longer than my main point!

dooverylittle

62% Tax, 8 euro a beer. No thank you.

cdaly_

Ah, but with proper services. Like being treated in the ER on the same day...

dooverylittle

Which came first the taxes or the sevices?

monument

dooverylittle wrote: »

62% Tax

That's simplistic, at best.

For starters the figure is the max income tax rate for high earners, it's not the standard tax rate. It's also a combination of municipal tax, state taxes and health care contribution.

While Denmark has high taxes, it's still more complex than directly comparing income taxes. Here in Ireland we have it seems a growing number of so-called 'double taxes' on things which were previously promised to be free -- bin charges, third level registration fees, A&E charges,... and soon water charges? And even in the good times we had our schools falling apart even with extra contributions from parents.

And if the list on Wikipedia could be trusted as comprehensive, we have three times as many toll roads and we're adding to that. While Denmark's only two toll road are very large scale bridges -- one which links Denmark and Sweden and the other links two of the main Danish islands.

In any case, compared to other countries Ireland may have a low income tax, but our VAT rate is higher than most countries. This reliance on VAT for State funding is a large problem at the moment. It should be more balanced towards income tax. In other areas we also pay more, our electricity prices are higher then most countries in Europe and we pay more for slower speeds for internet access. Back to tax and the question is who has the balance right in paying for things directly or paying central tax... it could be said both Denmark and Ireland don't have the balance right, or maybe one has?

And to make a cycling point in this post: Investment in cycling saves the State and taxpayer. It's cheaper then public transport or road building, and in the mid to long term it can be seen as a saving in health spend.

DirkVoodoo

monument wrote: »

And to make a cycling point in this post: Investment in cycling saves the State and taxpayer. It's cheaper then public transport or road building, and in the mid to long term it can be seen as a saving in health spend.

Should I mention the dreaded "pension" word?

Lumen

dooverylittle wrote: »

62% Tax, 8 euro a beer. No thank you.

Indeed, living in Dublin is tough. But what about Copenhagen?

professore

dooverylittle wrote: »

62% Tax, 8 euro a beer. No thank you.

Banks and health services that work. Schools that are not overcrowded and falling down. Long term planning. Clean and safe. Low corruption in government with lower pay than ours. 3.3% unemployment. Public money spent on people not bankrupt banks.

Not true on the € 8 beer. More like € 5 average, cheaper if you look around, close enough to Irish prices.

http://www.pintprice.com/region.php?/Denmark/EUR.htm

Beasty

dooverylittle wrote: »

Which came first the taxes or the sevices?

The first taxes were introduced by the ancient Egyptians. I guess there were armies before that, and so arguably "services" came first. However I also suspect the first taxes were actually more to do with funding the lavish lifestyles of those who introduced them, rather than provide services to the wider population.

Lumen

I've also heard that Denmark (and Copenhagen in particular) has a very positive balance-of-totty.

During the last ten years they have managed to sustain growth in hotness without reliance on Eastern Europe imports, and should be able to ride out the recession without a flight of quality assets leading to depressing increases in average BMI values...

Diarmuid

Just to keep it all in perspective, Denmark doesn't fare too bad on the complete tax burden

Civilian_Target

Interesting - so in France we pay the most tax but we're happy enough to do so.... makes sense. The cycle lanes are better than in Ireland, particularly since they redid them in Nice this summer...

gman2k

That's it, off to Qatar.

Mind you, passed through there once, and I was in the airport feeling bored, so I took out my binoculars to have a look out the window.
All going grand till this heavily armed security guard came over and told me to put them away - as the air force base was visible from the passenger terminal.

Slideshowbob

dooverylittle wrote: »

62% Tax, 8 euro a beer. No thank you.

paid €7.20 for a pint bottle of bulmers pear cider on friday in gogartys temple bar!!!

Raam

Slideshowbob wrote: »

paid €7.20 for a pint bottle of bulmers pear cider on friday in gogartys temple bar!!!

Best cider ever, I'll wager? It would want to be for that price.

Diarmuid

Slideshowbob wrote: »

paid €7.20 for a pint bottle of bulmers pear cider on friday in gogartys temple bar!!!

a lot of money for a very sweet crap drink

ROK ON

Slideshowbob wrote: »

paid €7.20 for a pint bottle of bulmers pear cider on friday in gogartys temple bar!!!

Idiocy to pay it my opinion. If you are being blatently overcharged, just leave and spend your hard earned dough elsewhere.

tomasrojo

Everyone who's been to Copenhagen seems to like cycling there.

However, they do have a mandatory-use regulation, which I don't like personally. I've never been there, so I'll defer to people who have about how good the facilities are.

One thing that has struck me reading copenhagenize.com is that typical speeds on cycling facilities are 10km/h, and according to the Wikipedia page on segregated cycling facilities, Danish facilties aren't really suitable for people who wish to travel faster than that (hence, I suppose, the Slow Cycling Movement, which seeks to make a virtue of this drawback).

What do you do when you live 20km from where you work and you want to cycle? Do you end up commuting 4 hours a day to go such a short distance? Would you end up illegally using the road?

Eoin D

Ouch. I'm getting out of the Netherlands.

tomasrojo

tomasrojo wrote: »

Everyone who's been to Copenhagen seems to like cycling there.

However, they do have a mandatory-use regulation, which I don't like personally. I've never been there, so I'll defer to people who have about how good the facilities are.

One thing that has struck me reading copenhagenize.com is that typical speeds on cycling facilities are 10km/h, and according to the Wikipedia page on segregated cycling facilities, Danish facilties aren't really suitable for people who wish to travel faster than that (hence, I suppose, the Slow Cycling Movement, which seeks to make a virtue of this drawback).

What do you do when you live 20km from where you work and you want to cycle? Do you end up commuting 4 hours a day to go such a short distance? Would you end up illegally using the road?

I'm not being sarky, by the way. I genuinely am interested to know what longer-distance cyclists do.

cdaly_

City is all I saw and there typical speeds would be fairly low. They do get priority over cars though so they tend to keep moving. There are an awful lot more bikes about too so it wouldn't be that easy to go fast anyhow what with having to overtake and such.

Wasn't there something about a bike highway mentioned a while back with a green wave on the traffic lights for a speed of 20 kph? This specifically for commuting long-distance.

seamus

tomasrojo wrote: »

I'm not being sarky, by the way. I genuinely am interested to know what longer-distance cyclists do.

Actually, I'd be interested too. When I was over there the rates of cycling were staggering but I think what struck me most was just how much time you would spend/waste waiting behind normal people cruising along on 30-year-old singlespeeds. Practical over v. short distances (5km or less), but not over Irish commuting distances.

Húrin

professore wrote: »

Banks and health services that work. Schools that are not overcrowded and falling down. Long term planning. Clean and safe. Low corruption in government with lower pay than ours. 3.3% unemployment. Public money spent on people not bankrupt banks.

How do they do it?

TinyExplosions

Húrin wrote: »

How do they do it?

By getting it right in the first place, and spending money on things that matter, not squandering it on crap!

p

dooverylittle wrote: »

62% Tax, 8 euro a beer. No thank you.

Have never paid 8 euro for a beer in the last 13 months living in Copenhagen.

tomasrojo wrote: »

I'm not being sarky, by the way. I genuinely am interested to know what longer-distance cyclists do.

Cycling is like walking in Dublin, it's not a sport like here. The average cycle is probably about 15-20 minutes and people don't like arriving all sweaty and smelly to places. But the cycle paths are pretty wide so it's fairly normal for people to scoot up pass you.

Copenhagen is also a much higher density compared to Dublin, so many more people live in the city centre, and if they're commuting it's within a short distance. Cycling from the suburbs on a 30-45 minute cycle is less common.

tomasrojo

p wrote: »

Copenhagen is also a much higher density compared to Dublin, so many more people live in the city centre, and if they're commuting it's within a short distance. Cycling from the suburbs on a 30-45 minute cycle is less common.

Thanks for that, @p. I remember you mentioning that you live in Denmark and like it very much.

I like roadsters, I like the idea of people wearing normal clothes, I like the idea of people doing every short journey possible by bike.

But it still doesn't answer my question: if you live 20km from work, does it mean pretty much a three- or four-hour round trip? If that's the case, then I definitely wouldn't use them. I might as well drive if I were forced to use them.

I'm not treating and have never treated cycling as a sport, to be honest. I just don't have a car, and I travel everywhere by bike. So that includes long journeys, usually with panniers, sometimes with a trailer. 20km/h isn't all that fast, but to make some of these journeys practicable, I have to travel at that speed. That isn't sport-like speed; it's just brisk. And since it's brisk and not flat-out fast, I also don't arrive "all sweaty and smelly".

I think this is the problem I have with copenhagenize.com, though I do like the site. The proprietor keeps pushing Copenhagen-style facilities as the answer to everything, and the idea of using the road as absurd. It's not absurd though, for someone like me.

Perhaps I just have a different idea of what is possible through cycling. It's capable of so much more than short, slow journeys.

tomasrojo

Also, again, not hectoring here, but if Copenhagen has such a different population density, it's also quite possible that its style of facilities aren't appropriate to a city that has US-type densities (actually lower, I think).

I must go there though, and try them out. I'm quite intrigued, apart from the bit about travelling at a slow jog.

tomasrojo

http://www.citymayors.com/statistics/largest-cities-density-125.html

Interestingly, Copenhagen (according to that url anyway) has a LOWER population density than Dublin.

Copenhagen: 1,850 persons/km^2
Dublin: 2,950 persons/km^2

I didn't expect that.

Bunnyhopper

I wonder what they consider the "City / Urban area" for Dublin and Copenhagen. This gives a 2006 population density for Dublin city of "4,304 persons per square kilometre".

The city/county thing complicates it a bit. The longer commutes in Dublin are probably starting from the county rather than the city, so it would be interesting to know how the density drops off from one to the other and how that compares with Copenhagen.

cdaly_

tomasrojo wrote:

if you live 20km from work, does it mean pretty much a three- or four-hour round trip?

I think in that case you probably cycle to the train, pop the bike in the built-in cycle rack on the train and cycle again at the other end. That said, there's probably room enough to cycle at speed over the longer distances.

tomasrojo

cdaly_ wrote: »

I think in that case you probably cycle to the train, pop the bike in the built-in cycle rack on the train and cycle again at the other end.

No, costs money, I'm afraid!

topper75

Once the initial pleasant distraction of the abundance of hot blondes wears off, you are subjected to mind-numbing boredom in Copenhagen. Once you have seen the mermaid, moped around the hippy quarter, and strolled the Stroget pedestrian area, that is pretty much it. Nothing to do. Mind you - reminds me of another city! The bike culture is great, and could be copied in Dublin, but I don't rate the town otherwise.

Lumen

topper75 wrote: »

Once the initial pleasant distraction of the abundance of hot blondes wears off, you are subjected to mind-numbing boredom in Copenhagen...Nothing to do. Mind you - reminds me of another city!

So to summarise: it's like Dublin but with safer cycling and more hotties?

BeerNut

topper75 wrote: »

that is pretty much it.

Well, apart from some of the best beers in the world, at the likes of Plan B, BrewPub, Nørrebro Bryghus etc.

Copenhagen is cycling beer geek heaven. The rest of you can stay out of my city (except Kenmc).

tomasrojo

A friend of mine who lives in Aarhus brought me back some Danish beers. They were mighty fine.

jspruit

tomasrojo wrote: »

No, costs money, I'm afraid!

It does cost 10 kroner more to put your bike on a train, but at least you are able during typical hours and there is designated space as opposed to the situation of trying to put your bike on a train in Ireland.

I have lived and worked both in city centre and suburban Copenhagen and am a bit confused regarding a previous poster's reference to 'mandatory-use' and 'slow cycling.' From my experience the bike traffic slows down around city centre because of additional bikes and more traffic lights, but I would still consider it to be the fastest affordable way to get around town. I can also say that when I lived 10km outside of city centre it was about a 25-30 minute moderately-paced bike commute to work everyday; at this pace I was passed by plenty of speed racers and also passed plenty of single-speed cruisers.

I think that the main reason that cycling works so well in Copenhagen is because the whole system (government, people, streets, culture, etc.) have made a large commitment to cycling.

jspruit

BeerNut wrote: »

Well, apart from some of the best beers in the world, at the likes of Plan B, BrewPub, Nørrebro Bryghus etc.

Copenhagen is cycling beer geek heaven. The rest of you can stay out of my city (except Kenmc).

Don't forget about Olbaren! http://oelbaren.dk/

tomasrojo

jspruit wrote: »

I have lived and worked both in city centre and suburban Copenhagen and am a bit confused regarding a previous poster's reference to 'mandatory-use' and 'slow cycling.' From my experience the bike traffic slows down around city centre because of additional bikes and more traffic lights, but I would still consider it to be the fastest affordable way to get around town. I can also say that when I lived 10km outside of city centre it was about a 25-30 minute moderately-paced bike commute to work everyday; at this pace I was passed by plenty of speed racers and also passed plenty of single-speed cruisers.

That's pretty much what I wanted to know.

The reference to mandatory use is that where cycling facilities are provided you can't use the road. My Aarhus-dwelling friend tells me it is so, anyway.
The reference to slow cycling is from copenhagenize.com, which says that typical speeds on facilities are 10km/h or less (he doesn't say whether average or cruising speeds). This is a good thing, he maintains.

Anyhow, it doesn't seem as if it is quite as copenhagenize.com makes out, once you're outside the city, from what you say.. Maybe, like the Irish language, the Danish cycling system is as badly served by its fans as its enemies.

jspruit

tomasrojo wrote: »

That's pretty much what I wanted to know.

The reference to mandatory use is that where cycling facilities are provided you can't use the road. My Aarhus-dwelling friend tells me it is so, anyway.
The reference to slow cycling is from copenhagenize.com, which says that typical speeds on facilities are 10km/h or less (he doesn't say whether average or cruising speeds). This is a good thing, he maintains.

Anyhow, it doesn't seem as if it is quite as copenhagenize.com makes out, once you're outside the city, from what you say.. Maybe, like the Irish language, the Danish cycling system is as badly served by its fans as its enemies.

Regarding the mandatory use I can't really comment what things are like in Aarhus are, but I don't see why you would not want to use the cycle lanes in Copenhagen city-they are everywhere and better laid out then the roads for cars. Once you get more than 10km outside of Copenhagen, at least in the northwest suburbs, I see slower riding people in the designated cycle lanes and more sporty cyclists sharing the road with the cars and there doesn't seem to be a problem there.

I'd say that regarding average cycle speeds in the city centre, I average about the same in Dublin as I do in Copenhagen for 10-15min 3-5km commuter-type rides. Just like in Dublin, you have plenty of people going at a slower leisurely pace and plenty of people who are zipping by pretty fast. You do see much fewer cyclists in Copenhagen disobeying traffic laws though in comparison to Dublin. Although I am in Dublin now, I'm not Irish so the comment regarding the Irish language is something that I can't really comment on too much either.

tomasrojo

The copenhagenize.com site has a strong anti-Vehicular Cycling philosophy, which may distort its depictions of how the facilities are actually used; it makes them sound painfully slow and then more or less says: "and it's great to have to travel so slowly!"

Certainly, it sounds a whole lot better from your description. Many thanks for the clarifications.

tomasrojo

One final indulgence to ask of you, @jspruit. Do you think Danish people would tolerate this?

petethedrummer

Lumen wrote: »

So to summarise: it's like Dublin but with safer cycling and more hotties?

More hotties per square yard than any other place I've been in the world. It's like a bicycle driven conveyor belt of hotness.

Marvinthefish

topper75 wrote: »

Once the initial pleasant distraction of the abundance of hot blondes wears off...

That's crazy talk!

jspruit

tomasrojo wrote: »

One final indulgence to ask of you, @jspruit. Do you think Danish people would tolerate this?

I can't speak for your friends in Aarhus, but I've never seen anything like that in the Copenhagen area at all. I would say that not only that Danish cyclists wouldn't tolerate that, but traffic planners and civil engineers wouldn't tolerate it either. As I mentioned before, in order for it to work properly, you have to have a large commitment from many different parties involved-and high taxes help when you're paying for those things too.

tomasrojo

jspruit wrote: »

I can't speak for your friends in Aarhus, but I've never seen anything like that in the Copenhagen area at all. I would say that not only that Danish cyclists wouldn't tolerate that, but traffic planners and civil engineers wouldn't tolerate it either. As I mentioned before, in order for it to work properly, you have to have a large commitment from many different parties involved-and high taxes help when you're paying for those things too.

It's quite something, isn't it? That's from Galway. Designed and built by traffic planners and civil engineers over the protests of the Galway Cycling Campaign.

Thanks for all the feedback. It's the clearest picture I've got of how the system works in practice.

alastair

Lumen wrote: »

So to summarise: it's like Dublin but with safer cycling and more hotties?

http://www.copenhagencyclechic.com/

petethedrummer

alastair wrote: »

http://www.copenhagencyclechic.com/

That website doesn't even do the Danish girls justice.

BeerNut

petethedrummer wrote: »

More hotties per square yard than any other place I've been in the world.

Get thee to Tallinn. It's... an eye opener. Not so many bikes, though. Which is a shame, what with all the cobbled streets.

petethedrummer

BeerNut wrote: »

Get thee to Tallinn. It's... an eye opener. Not so many bikes, though. Which is a shame, what with all the cobbled streets.

Been there. Have to say Copenhagen was better.

BeerNut

Note to self: Spend less time of my Copenhagen time looking at beer.