Male educational underachievement

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Eliot Rosewater

The "increasingly" part if perhaps easier to describe than the "dominated" part. What we have seen in the last decades is an increase in women empowerment. How many mothers in their 30's are housewives compared to say 20 years ago? Women are increasingly going to college, so they are increasingly dominating.

If we are to be objective, its clear there are more professions where it is acceptable for men to enter than women. When is the last time you saw a female brick-layer, truck driver or carpenter? I dont think Ive ever seen any examples of women in these professions. With a smaller choice to choose from it may just happen that the proportion of women in the areas where it is acceptable is larger.

I am a huge believer in the influence, often subtle, that culture plays in our lives. I would imagine with the main avenues for women to pursue being largely academic that a culture of study amongst girls and young women has emerged. This theory would be re-enforced by the statistics you put forward indicating higher grades amongst women Leaving Cert students.

It is a complex question, really, and you could probably read anything you want out of it. Feminists would have a field day on this kind of article.

kowloon

Not surprising really, but Universities tend to cover a lot of humanities subjects and the likes. If you factored in technical institutes I wonder what the figures would say. I suspect Eliot Rosewater has a very valid point here.

Valmont

Of those who earn first class honours, what percentage are women?

Earthhorse

donegalfella wrote: »

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It's difficult to say based on that article alone and for a few reasons.

For starters, what is the percentage split of boys and girls at that age? Without that, it's difficult to say what these figures mean. Also, I very much agree with Kowloon that the figures at third level may become more even, or perhaps biased in favour of boys were other institutions to be included.

If I were to posit some theories though...

This could very well be the peak of and continuation of a trend that has nothing to do with boys and everything to do with girls. In other words, we may have gotten better at educating girls whilst no better at educating boys. We've encouraged them more, learnt how to communicate and engage with them better and as a result their performance has improved whilst boys' has stagnated.

More realistically, women of this generation know that an education is something they'll need and is almost certainly something many of them want regardless of need. Previous generations were faced with no or little choice; it was expected of them to become a housewife. That hasn't been the case for some time and the expectation is almost vanished entirely in fact. Boys on the other hand, have been third level and overall achievers in education for years and perhaps are more cynical about the rewards.

This brings me to my next point which is simply that it might be that boys have cottoned on to the truth about third level (or university, at least) education, which is that it's not all it's trumped up to be. The figure is something like one third of students dropping out in first year of college which goes to the fact that many people are attending university simply because it is the done thing these days, just as women getting married young and becoming housewives was the done thing in times gone by. The idea that everyone should be at university when they have no interest or have not made up their mind about what they want to do is an off putting one and is perhaps putting off more boys than girls.

The university road is a well-trodden, safe option (I make no secret of the fact that I took it myself). Whereas women are not necessarily following in the footsteps of their mothers men probably are to a large degree and they might, as I said before, be more cynical about it. This is perfectly reflected in one of many dialogues in Fight Club.

My father never went to college so it was really important I go to college. After college, I called him long distance and said, now what?
My dad didn't know, so he said get a job.
When I got a job and turned twenty-five, long distance, I said, now what? My dad didn't know, so he said, get married.
I'm a thirty-year-old boy, and I'm wondering if another woman is really the answer I need.

Note: You might think that quote is a counter argument to the point I'm making but bear in mind that the author actually did go to college and I think it's fair to say it came out of his experience of same.

The riskier, and perhaps more rewarding, path is to make it without the college education so much promoted by modern society. The Sunday Times had a piece on this, regarding the trend of University Professors in England giving up their highly prized positions to take up a trade. The simple reason being, the trades were better paid.

Fintan O'Toole wrote an article regarding women being the larger consumers of culture in today's Ireland; they're reading more (and not just chick lit), they're at the theatre more. They're producing more culture too; there are more and more published female authors and whereas the number of male authors dwindling. But he is speaking exclusively about a particular kind of culture. He says nothing of stand up comedy, for instance, which is a relatively fresh medium, which is very heavily dominated by men, which is increasingly politically relevant and which, thanks to acts such as Eddie Izzard and Stewart Lee, is becoming increasingly cerebral. So is it that men having nothing valuable to say or are just more interested in exploring expression in a relatively unexplored medium?

My post might be sounding a little sexist at this stage so I'll just pause here to say I'm possibly not expressing myself as clearly as I could (it being late on a Friday) and that these are just ideas I'm positing to explain a trend that's difficult to explain in the absence of further facts. But I do think what I've said, in very broad terms, is in part an explanation for this phenomenon.

What does it mean for the future of our society that men are now less likely to do well in school, less likely to go to college, and thus less likely to get professional jobs?

I'm not sure it is less likely that they will get professional jobs. In my field, software development, experience and industry exams are more important than a degree. Many other professions (such as the legal one) are again more concerned with their own exams. I believe degrees will be seen as decreasingly important in many of the professions in future. Not unimportant, not irrelevant, just not as important, not abused as a shortcut to rating a candidate as they are today.

Even if that isn't true I'm not sure having more women and less men performing as well as women (not necessarily performing poorly), attending third level or in professional jobs does mean anything. It has been the other way around for decades and what did it mean then? And there's nothing to suggest the trend will continue indefinitely.

Cianos

I'd argue that it has a lot to do with the different rate at which girls and boys mature, and the shortcomings of the educational system in relation to this, and in particular the transition from 2nd level to 3rd level education.

Around the time of hitting the ages of 17/18, school children are being faced with choosing their educational path that will have a big impact on the life they lead. Most young people at that age don't really know much about themselves as a person, and so making this decision is going to be hard at best, and completely misguided at worst. It's a bigger decision to make then I think most appreciate at that age.

Girls tend to be a bit more mature at this age so their chances of making a better choice will be higher. A more suitable college course means a better performance which means a better career.

I'd also love to know the correlation between students coming from same sex schools and college drop out rates as I think being in a mixed school gives the boys a chance to mature quicker.

I think there should be a compulsory "gap year" between leaving school and starting college, where secondary school students go on and do various programmes and courses that allow them to expand their horizons and gain some perspective beyond the confines of academia.

deadhead13

I can't really see it as a result of inherent ability more question of motivation and other social issues. Maybe the economic downturn, decline of the construction industry and the labour market being far more competitive will see more male students going onto 3rd level and preforming better when they get there.

Eliot Rosewater

Cianos wrote: »

I'd also love to know the correlation between students coming from same sex schools and college drop out rates as I think being in a mixed school gives the boys a chance to mature quicker.

Apparently girls from same-sex schools perform better than girls in mixed schools while boys from same-sex schools perform worse than boys in mixed schools. A big apparently because although ive heard it many I time, I have no sources.

Anecdotal evidence would suggest that educational competition is quite extreme within same-sex girls schools.

Oldfool

has anybody noticed the correlation between male undercachievement and the fact that there are fewer and fewer men in the teaching profession. Females are doing all the teaching and doing it for the benefit of other females.

shellyboo

Oldfool wrote: »

has anybody noticed the correlation between male undercachievement and the fact that there are fewer and fewer men in the teaching profession. Females are doing all the teaching and doing it for the benefit of other females.

I wouldn't say it's intentional, tbh - but is there something in the notion that girls learn better from female teachers and boys from male teachers?

kowloon

I think in a few years time we might see initiatives to get more males into female dominated courses.
I remember when I was in school seeing lots of posters and information booklets to try and get girls interested in engineering and science.
From what I gather science has a female majority at this stage, but I wouldn't be surprised if the same posters and booklets are still circulating.
The educational authorities suffer from the same inertia as other govt. departments.

metrovelvet

There is a theory that even at primary level boys should start a minimum of a year later as they are not as advanced as the girls.

miec

I believe that the traditional models for boys and girls and then men and women have broken down and as a result, the way boys and girls learn have changed as a result. I think long term this is a good thing because instead of men being the breadwinners it could be that it becomes shared or more fluid, you might have women who are breadwinners and men who are homemakers.
Earthhorse makes some fascinating points as well about how boys are reacting to former models of education so I think that could be an added factor.

ChocolateSauce

In a totally fair and equal world, I think it would be natural for women to slightly outnumber men in higher education, as there are a number of professions like construction and others which require physical strength that women simply aren't as fit for as men due to lack of upper body strength, although I don't think that this is cause of the current difference...What is, I could only speculate.

metrovelvet

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

In a totally fair and equal world, I think it would be natural for women to slightly outnumber men in higher education, as there are a number of professions like construction and others which require physical strength that women simply aren't as fit for as men due to lack of upper body strength, although I don't think that this is cause of the current difference...What is, I could only speculate.

Also dont the women out number the men 3 to one anyway.

994

metrovelvet wrote: »

There is a theory that even at primary level boys should start a minimum of a year later as they are not as advanced as the girls.

This is one thing that is often ignored. In all mammals, the males hit maturity later in life so as to avoid dangerous competition from the tougher males when they can't defend themselves. So human males reach their full height and physical state aged 21 or so; for women it's around 18. So if we expect identical results from 17-year-old Leaving Cert students, we won't get them, ever.

2Scoops

The situation is the opposite in virtually every other English-speaking country. I think this is primarily a cultural issue.

spurious

The situation is exacerbated by the examination system in which rather than allowing for short term 'assignment style' goals, which suit the learning style of many boys, everything depends on one terminal exam. It's an issue the Examinations Commission has been aware of for years. It doesn't help that teaching is becoming a female dominated profession at a time when a large minority of boys have no strong male role models in their lives.

It's very much a phenomenon that feminists, both men and women, take a great interest in. Any ongoing situation where one gender is automatically favoured over the other is not good.

Cianos

spurious wrote: »

The situation is exacerbated by the examination system in which rather than allowing for short term 'assignment style' goals, which suit the learning style of many boys, everything depends on one terminal exam. It's an issue the Examinations Commission has been aware of for years. It doesn't help that teaching is becoming a female dominated profession at a time when a large minority of boys have no strong male role models in their lives.

It's very much a phenomenon that feminists, both men and women, take a great interest in. Any ongoing situation where one gender is automatically favoured over the other is not good.

Could you explain a bit more about why males are more suited to assignment type goals than females?

deadhead13

994 wrote: »

This is one thing that is often ignored. In all mammals, the males hit maturity later in life so as to avoid dangerous competition from the tougher males when they can't defend themselves. So human males reach their full height and physical state aged 21 or so; for women it's around 18. So if we expect identical results from 17-year-old Leaving Cert students, we won't get them, ever.

It is difficult to determine very much form the statistics given in the article. Have male students results got progressively worse while female students have been improving? Or are boys results the same as they have always been and girls have passed them out? Over what time period has this occurred? I'm guessing it is a fairly recent development, perhaps over a decade or more.

So there was a long period where males did better on average in leaving cert then females. If maturity was such a determing factor, this wouldn't have been the case.

2Scoops wrote: »

The situation is the opposite in virtually every other English-speaking country. I think this is primarily a cultural issue.

The same sort of articles have been appearing regularly in newspapers in the Uk for over 15 years.

spurious wrote: »

The situation is exacerbated by the examination system in which rather than allowing for short term 'assignment style' goals, which suit the learning style of many boys, everything depends on one terminal exam. It's an issue the Examinations Commission has been aware of for years.

Whenever I have read about this subject in the UK media the change form a system of one off exams to one with a greater degree of continuous assessment is blamed because the latter favours girls over boys. But this theory falls down when you apply it to the Irish system. Its a complex issue.

2Scoops

deadhead13 wrote: »

The same sort of articles have been appearing regularly in newspapers in the Uk for over 15 years.

Of course - the culture there is virtually the same as here. I was thinking more along the lines of US, Canada, Australia, SA.

spurious

Cianos wrote: »

Could you explain a bit more about why males are more suited to assignment type goals than females?

I don't know enough about educational psychology to talk about why it happens, but in subjects where there is an element of project/practical work as well as a terminal exam, the gap is not as wide. Boys seem to be able to manage piecemeal short-term tasks better than concentrating on one large distant multi-faceted task.

The ideal 'solution' would seem to be what was initially intended with the Junior Cert. - a terminal exam with a sizeable amount of the marks (up to 40%) going to project/practical/continuously assessed work - sadly very few subjects in the JC ever managed to get the non-examination elements up and running, which meant the JC didn't really change anything.

deadhead13

spurious wrote: »

The ideal 'solution' would seem to be what was initially intended with the Junior Cert. - a terminal exam with a sizeable amount of the marks (up to 40%) going to project/practical/continuously assessed work - sadly very few subjects in the JC ever managed to get the non-examination elements up and running, which meant the JC didn't really change anything.

Isn't this more or less how the GCSEs in the UK are now set up? Yet girls still out perform boys to the same extent as they do here.