Crucifixes in Italian public schools a breach of human rights: ECHR

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8340411.stm

Italy school crucifixes 'barred'


Catholicism stopped being the state religion in Italy in 1984
The European Court of Human Rights has ruled against the use of crucifixes in classrooms in Italy.

It said the practice violated the right of parents to educate their children as they saw fit, and ran counter to the child's right to freedom of religion.

The case was brought by an Italian mother, Soile Lautsi, who wants to give her children a secular education.

But the ruling has sparked anger in the largely Catholic country, with one politician calling the move "shameful".

The Strasbourg court found that: "The compulsory display of a symbol of a given confession in premises used by the public authorities... restricted the right of parents to educate their children in conformity with their convictions."

It also restricted the "right of children to believe or not to believe", the seven judges ruling on the case said in a statement quoted by AFP news agency.

'Italian tradition'

Mrs Lautsi complained to the European court that her children had to attend a public school in northern Italy that had crucifixes in every room.

She was awarded 5,000 euros ($7,400; £4,500) in damages.

But many politicians in Italy have reacted angrily.

Education Minister Mariastella Gelmini said the crucifix was a "symbol of our tradition", and not a mark of Catholicism.

One government minister called the ruling "shameful", while another said that Europe was forgetting its Christian heritage.

The government says it will appeal against the decision. The Vatican says it will study the ruling before issuing a comment.

The BBC's Duncan Kennedy in Rome says that it is customary in Italy to see crucifixes in public buildings, including schools, despite the constitution saying that there should be a separation of church and state.

The law requiring crucifixes to be hung in schools dates back to the 1920s.

Although a revised accord between the Vatican and the Italian government ended Catholicism's position as the state religion in 1984, the crucifix law has never been repealed.

Some conservatives have already complained about schools dropping nativity plays to avoid upsetting Muslim children.

Will this have any implications for Ireland?

ArthurDent

not sure if this case happened in Ireland if the ruling would be the same - I don't know enough about the ownership of schools in Italy - but here most schools are owned (in trust) by the denominations they belong to. Not all but most - even those that have been paid for through public funding are often built on church land. Most hospitals fall into this situation too.

Interesting though - thanks for posting link

Dades

a [government minister] said that Europe was forgetting its Christian heritage.

Ah, the Dark Ages. How we laughed. :pac:

Rud Annamh

Tsk tsk, what harm would it do to a vulnerable young mind to see a semi-naked emaciated man nailed to a cross and oozing blood?

Oh yeah, coupled with frequent reminders that it's your fault? ("he died for your sins".....)

jhegarty

Deleted User wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8340411.stm

Will this have any implications for Ireland?

I don't think it would have any , as the schools in Ireland are no publicly owned buildings AFAIK.

ArthurDent

jhegarty wrote: »

I don't think it would have any , as the schools in Ireland are no publicly owned buildings AFAIK.

as I said above this is not true - although many are not publicaly owned most new schools (both denominational and multi-d) are state owned

GLaDOS

Good to see, though the fact she got €5000 in damages is a joke

bogwalrus

euro news link.

http://www.euronews.net/2009/11/03/european-court-bans-crucifixes-in-italian-schools/

Zombrex

we don't have public schools in Ireland. We have private schools funded by government grants and private schools funded privately.

Until we have proper public education in this country it is unlikely any ruling like this is going to have much sway. The closes you might get is a law saying that public funds cannot be used to fund private schools unless they are secular, but that in itself has a lot of legal issues

Zillah

Rud Annamh wrote: »

Oh yeah, coupled with frequent reminders that it's your fault? ("he died for your sins".....)

"He died for your sins...little Mohammed".

Really though, are we at all surprised that the Catholics are whinging like little babies now that their privileged position is being taken away?

Although I agree that giving her damages was a little over the top. Unless it was to cover the legal fees she had to pay to bring this case to their attention.

Zombrex

Zillah wrote: »

"He died for your sins...little Mohammed".

Really though, are we at all surprised that the Catholics are whinging like little babies now that their privileged position is being taken away?

Although I agree that giving her damages was a little over the top. Unless it was to cover the legal fees she had to pay to bring this case to their attention.

Often the only way these things go is that to assert guilt there has to be damages because you have to show you were damaged by something. At least that is the way it works in America, when ever someone takes a case against say prayer in school you have to show that it has damaged you in some way, even if that "damage" is simply the your rights have been restricted or trampled upon.

You couldn't really show damages yet not actually expect anyone to pay damages. Just they way it works.

Goduznt Xzst

Zillah wrote: »

Really though, are we at all surprised that the Italians are whinging like little babies now that their privileged position is being taken away?

I think this would be more of an accurate generalization.

On another note, it raises the question about the line that gets blurred between religious/cultural symbolism. It is possible that the Crucifix has been reconditioned as a symbol of Italian culture due to its overwhelming presence.

The Shamrock in Ireland has mystical and religious origins in our history, right up to its modern association with the Catholic Trinity, yet I would not really have an issue with it being displayed in a classroom due to it's connotation of being an Irish symbol.

The same could be said of the Swastika, it had numerous previous (and still present) meanings yet, due to the Nazis it's connotation and has been reconditioned to be associated with war and evil.

Similar is the Christianities reconditioning of horns to symbolize the devil and evil rather than their previous association with the greek God Pan and fertility.

Being discussed on Today FM now.

IONA: This should be a national issue

faceman

How does awarding the plantiff damages address the issue?
Did the crucifix impact their lives so much that financial compensation address the financial loss they suffered as a result of being oppressed by the crucifixes?

Funglegunk

faceman wrote: »

How does awarding the plantiff damages address the issue?
Did the crucifix impact their lives so much that financial compensation address the financial loss they suffered as a result of being oppressed by the crucifixes?

It was probably for the legal fees incurred.

Galvasean

I hope the 5 grand was for legal fees as opposed to 'trauma' or something like that.

The Greek Orthodox Church is urging Christians across Europe to unite in an appeal against a ban on crucifixes in classrooms in Italy.

The European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg ruled last week that the presence of crucifixes violated a child's right to freedom of religion.

Greece's Orthodox Church fears the Italian case will set a precedent.

It has called an emergency Holy Synod meeting for next week to devise an action plan.

Although the Greek Orthodox Church has been at odds with Roman Catholicism for 1,000 years, the judicial threat to Christian symbols has acted as a unifying force.

The European Court of Human Rights found that the compulsory display of crucifixes violated parents' rights to educate their children as they saw fit and restricted the right of children to believe or not to believe.

'Worthy symbols'

The head of the Greek Church, Archbishop Ieronymos, shares Catholic complaints that the court is ignoring the role of Christianity in forming Europe's identity.

It is not only minorities that have rights but majorities as well, said the archbishop.

One of his subordinates, Bishop Nicholas from central Greece, lamented that at this rate youngsters will not have any worthy symbols at all to inspire and protect them.



The mayor of one Italian town displayed a 2m high crucifix in protest
Football and pop idols are very poor substitutes, he said.

The Greek Church has ostensibly intervened in this case in response to an appeal by a Greek mother whose son is studying in Italy.

But without doubt it is concerned that its omnipotence in Greece is under threat.

A human rights group called Helsinki Monitor is seeking to use the Italian case as a precedent.

It has demanded that Greek courts remove icons of Jesus Christ from above the judge's bench and that the gospel no longer be used for swearing oaths in the witness box.

Helsinki Monitor is urging trade unions to challenge the presence of religious symbols in Greek schools.

The socialist government here is also considering imposing new taxes on the Church's vast fortune, but at the same time is urging it to do more to help immigrants and poor Greeks.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8358027.stm
The ball has started rolling.

Zombrex

Galvasean wrote: »

I hope the 5 grand was for legal fees as opposed to 'trauma' or something like that.

It was damages, those normally (afaik) are separate from legal fees.

Breach of civil rights would be considered a normal thing to be awarded damages, even if the person as not been physically harmed by such breach. Breach of civil rights is considered damage in of itself.