Mass attendance in Ireland is up [article]

Plowman

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prinz

Part of the same phenomenon as the stump and the Knock visions. It's the economy stupid! as they say. Haven't noticed it tbh.

liamw

Religion is comforting people during the recession.. no surprise there then

kilmacqueen

I'm actually doing research for an article at the moment, for that exact subject. I'll let you know when I find out all the facts.

PDN

The survey was carried out for the Iona Institute, not by them - which is a pretty big distinction.

Also, the numbers refer to church attendance, not just mass attendance, so presumably the increase in non-Catholic forms of worship are factored in.

Despite all that, I still find the results surprising!

toiletduck

ust 1 per cent of Red C respondents said they never attended church while another 10 per cent have not been in at least a year.

Well depending on the question asked, it seems that even I would come into the "attending" figure having been to a few funerals during the year.

Xluna

I find it interesting that the rise in mass attendance is happening as the economy goes to crap. When reality sucks people tend to use escapism as a coping mechanism.An extreme example would be that charlatan at Knock. Sorry lads but it really does seem too much of a coincidence.

seamus

PDN wrote: »

Also, the numbers refer to church attendance, not just mass attendance, so presumably the increase in non-Catholic forms of worship are factored in.

I'd be interested to see the full details of the survey. Surely the question "Do you attend religious services" is defunct/NA for people who are not religious or whose religion doesn't have "mass" of any sort.

That is, I find it surprising that just 1 per cent of people claimed to "never attend mass", when the last census showed that 4.4% of people had no religion.

prinz

seamus wrote: »

That is, I find it surprising that just 1 per cent of people claimed to "never attend mass", when the last census showed that 4.4% of people had no religion.

Not that suprising. Many people attend church services due to loved ones, spouses, children etc. but would have no real interest in it. How often have we heard teenagers/young adults etc saying they go to mass when they're with their parents to keep them happy, and that sort of thing..

PDN

Xluna wrote: »

I find it interesting that the rise in mass attendance is happening as the economy goes to crap. When reality sucks people tend to use escapism as a coping mechanism.An extreme example would be that charlatan at Knock. Sorry lads but it really does seem too much of a coincidence.

Why be sorry? Christianity has a message that offers hope to people during tough times. That's a plus in our book, not a minus. So, no need to apologise.

seamus

prinz wrote: »

Not that suprising. Many people attend church services due to loved ones, spouses, children etc. but would have no real interest in it. How often have we heard teenagers/young adults etc saying they go to mass when they're with their parents to keep them happy, and that sort of thing..

But if someone is not religious, why would they attend church services? What I mean is that if someone is definite enough about their non-belief to write non-religious on the census, I don't see them going to mass on a regular basis just to satisfy mammy.

If you're right of course, then we're not seeing the big picture in this survey. If 75% of non-religious people are still attending church for whatever reason, then that should cast doubts on the motivation/faith of a large proportion of people who claim to be religious and attend mass.
What I mean is, if you have a chunk of people who are going to mass, despite proclaiming themselves to be non-religious, then you are extremely likely to have a large number of people who are in exactly the same boat but haven't taken the step to declare themselves non-religious.

However, I don't believe this to be the case. I can't see 75% of admitted non-religious people attending church services. None of the non-religious people I know go to mass. Not a single one.

I imagine the results have been released by Iona to ignore the existence of the non-religious in Ireland. Red C are a good polling company - the question of "How often do you attend religious services" would have an "NA" answer for those people who are non-religious. Results would then be broken down into "No. of religious people who attend services.." etc.

Asking an atheist how often he attends mass is like asking a man how regular his period is; it's a non-question.

prinz

seamus wrote: »

But if someone is not religious, why would they attend church services? What I mean is that if someone is definite enough about their non-belief to write non-religious on the census, I don't see them going to mass on a regular basis just to satisfy mammy.

You're looking at this in much too much of a black and white issue. There are committed atheists IIRC who post here and on the A&A forum who have attended mass because their spouse is not an atheist. Or just to see what it is like. Attending mass does not automatically mean you suddenly lose your right to call yourself an atheist.

seamus wrote: »

If you're right of course, then we're not seeing the big picture in this survey. If 75% of non-religious people are still attending church for whatever reason, then that should cast doubts on the motivation/faith of a large proportion of people who claim to be religious and attend mass.....

No, why would it? Why would the actions of admitted non-religious cast doubts on admitted religious? If an atheist turns up to mass some Sunday that has no bearing whatsoever on the faith or motivation of the others who attend every Sunday..

seamus wrote: »

What I mean is, if you have a chunk of people who are going to mass, despite proclaiming themselves to be non-religious, then you are extremely likely to have a large number of people who are in exactly the same boat but haven't taken the step to declare themselves non-religious......

Why would a "large number" be extremely likely? Of course it's guaranteed that there are some. People go because of tradition, people go for all sorts of reasons.

seamus wrote: »

However, I don't believe this to be the case. I can't see 75% of admitted non-religious people attending church services. None of the non-religious people I know go to mass. Not a single one....

Well good for you. I know plenty who would attend at least one mass a year. Go to mass any time during the year and you'll get a largely empty church. Go at Christmas and you'll be lucky to get a seat. What does that tell you? People aren't that bothered and don't attend monthly? But have attended at least once in the last year? Have you read the excerpt above? Where is 75% coming from?

seamus wrote: »

I imagine the results have been released by Iona to ignore the existence of the non-religious in Ireland. Red C are a good polling company -....

So which is it? Red C "the good polling company" either made a faulty poll, or for some reason you think the Iona Institute is twisting the findings? i.e. the findings of Red C...

seamus wrote: »

Asking an atheist how often he attends mass is like asking a man how regular his period is; it's a non-question.

It's a simple question. Attendance/non-attendance is not a prerequisite to qualify as atheist. Perhaps militant atheist.

seamus

prinz wrote: »

You're looking at this in much too much of a black and white issue. There are committed atheists IIRC who post here and on the A&A forum who have attended mass because their spouse is not an atheist. Or just to see what it is like. Attending mass does not automatically mean you suddenly lose your right to call yourself an atheist.

But an atheist is not going to attend mass because their spouse does. Why would they?

Well good for you. I know plenty who would attend at least one mass a year. Go to mass any time during the year and you'll get a largely empty church. Go at Christmas and you'll be lucky to get a seat. What does that tell you? People aren't that bothered and don't attend monthly? But have attended at least once in the last year? Have you read the excerpt above? Where is 75% coming from?

But again, why would an atheist go at Christmas? Saying that the numbers of Xmas attendees include atheists is the same as claiming that they also include Jews and Muslims.

So which is it? Red C "the good polling company" either made a faulty poll, or for some reason you think the Iona Institute is twisting the findings? i.e. the findings of Red C...

I just don't think the information supplied is enough to make any judgements on. There are too many questions.

It's a simple question. Attendance/non-attendance is not a prerequisite to qualify as atheist. Perhaps militant atheist.

No, but taking the question as black-and-white as "Have you been in a church in the previous year" makes it a good measure of how many people have been in a church in the previous year and says absolutely nothing of church attendances.

What I mean is, I was in a church this year. For a funeral. I stood at the back and then shook hands with the family at the end before leaving. Had I been asked that question I would still have answered, "No, I do not attend church".
However, if you're taking footfall as a measure of the faith's popularity, then clearly you're looking at the wrong figures because as you rightly point out most people will have been in the church building for one reason or another in the past year, regardless of their faith.

See what I'm getting at?

Xluna

PDN wrote: »

Why be sorry? Christianity has a message that offers hope to people during tough times. That's a plus in our book, not a minus. So, no need to apologise.

People also go for pyramid schemes and buy more lottery tickets during recessionary times also. Hope does not equate to truth.

Turtwig

seamus wrote: »

But an atheist is not going to attend mass because their spouse does.

I attend mass and I'm not married and I also know many atheists single/married that attend mass.

Plowman

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Turtwig

Sorry if this is a silly question, but do you mean you attend Mass regularly or on special occasions?

Not a silly question at all.

Both, not always every week though.

PDN

Xluna wrote: »

People also go for pyramid schemes and buy more lottery tickets during recessionary times also. Hope does not equate to truth.

Nobody said hope does equate to truth.

And I hope nobody is equating church attendance with pyramid schemes or lottery tickets, as that kind of stuff belongs under a bridge rather than in this forum.

prinz

seamus wrote: »

But an atheist is not going to attend mass because their spouse does. Why would they?
But again, why would an atheist go at Christmas? Saying that the numbers of Xmas attendees include atheists is the same as claiming that they also include Jews and Muslims.

Why would they not? To placate their spouse perhaps. To enjoy a Christmas tradition? Does every atheist you know refuse to listen to or enjoy Christmas carols? Perhaps an atheist parent wants their children to attend? Perhaps an atheist is married to a Christian and wants to join the family to Easter mass? There are some such 'mixed' couples represented on this forum.

seamus wrote: »

No, but taking the question as black-and-white as "Have you been in a church in the previous year" makes it a good measure of how many people have been in a church in the previous year and says absolutely nothing of church attendances.

Measuring how many people have been in a church says nothing about how many people attended?

seamus wrote: »

What I mean is, I was in a church this year. For a funeral. I stood at the back and then shook hands with the family at the end before leaving. Had I been asked that question I would still have answered, "No, I do not attend church". .

But you have attended a Church service in the past year. Simple answer - yes to that question.

seamus wrote: »

However, if you're taking footfall as a measure of the faith's popularity, then clearly you're looking at the wrong figures because as you rightly point out most people will have been in the church building for one reason or another in the past year, regardless of their faith.

But didn't you just say no atheist would go to a church? I mean "why would they" was what you said. Now you're saying obviously the figures are misleading because people are saying yes who aren't 'religious'.... which is it? Now you're agreeing with me that atheists etc do attend church services for a variety of reasons?

seamus wrote: »

See what I'm getting at?

No, not really.

seamus

Malty_T wrote: »

Both, not always every week though.

Can I ask why? Surely as an atheist (which I assume you are), it's just a complete waste of time. What are you getting out of it?

prinz wrote:

Why would they not? To placate their spouse perhaps. To enjoy a Christmas tradition? Does every atheist you know refuse to listen to or enjoy Christmas carols? Perhaps an atheist parent wants their children to attend? Perhaps an atheist is married to a Christian and wants to join the family to Easter mass? There are some such 'mixed' couples represented on this forum.

The reason they would not, is as I posed to Malty above. It's the same reason I wouldn't want nor expect my wife to accompany me on the golf course and just follow me around all day - because it's a complete waste of her time if she's not participating. Xmas carols are a different thing altogether - it's perfectly possible and reasonable to enjoy music without caring about the meaning behind the words. Most people do it for all types of music.

Measuring how many people have been in a church says nothing about how many people attended?

What I presume Iona are trying to do is get a measure of the strength of the faith in Ireland, how many people are part of the Catholic community, what is the number of faithful Irish and how faithful are they. If they're simply measuring footfall, then they learn nothing about this metric.

But you have attended a Church service in the past year. Simple answer - yes to that question.

Which, as above, is useless for Iona's purposes. Having read the actual press release, there seems to be some crossing of wires, or at least some obfuscation. They declare that X amount of people go to mass weekly. But they also say that X amount of people haven't been in at least a year.
To declare these two figures you actually need two very distinct questions:
1. How often do you attend mass?
2. When was the last time you attended mass?

The results of both of these two questions will give you very different figures. That is, most Irish people will answer, "More than a year" to the second question, regardless of faith - most atheists were Catholic at some point.
Attempting to mix the results of the two questions to come up with a profile is actually quite difficult unless you remove all of those people who arent of the Catholic faith.

No, not really.

No, because I wasn't being very clear. Look at it another way;
A survey company calls you up and asks you the question, "How often do you go to the Synagogue?". Do you answer, "Never", or do you answer, "I'm not Jewish"?
If you give the former answer, then the results of the survey are skewed - you are marked down as a Jewish non-attender. If you give the latter answer, you can be profiled based on religion.
Now, imagine you went to a Synagogue for a Jewish funeral, and a few weeks later you get the same question. Again, do you answer, "Rarely" or "Once a year", or is your answer, "I'm not Jewish"?

It's a small statistical fiddle, but if you don't exclude those to whom your question has no relevance, your results are meaningless - unless you're looking for nothing more than, "X amount of people were in a church building this year". I'm sure some churches employ non-Catholic cleaners. Should they also be included in the numbers of the faithful just because they're always in the building?

Does that make it clearer the point I'm trying to make?

PDN

seamus wrote: »

Does that make it clearer the point I'm trying to make?

No, it doesn't.

If you want to know how many people go to church and how often then it makes sense to ask questions about that.

Whether you are an atheist or not is immaterial. If you go to church once a year you say so and are marked down the same as a Catholic who goes once a year.

If you say, "I'm an atheist, I never go to Church" then you are marked down as a non-attender just the same as if you hadn't mentioned your atheism.

Pollsters do not put N/A down as an answer to a 'how often' question.

seamus

PDN wrote: »

Pollsters do not put N/A down as an answer to a 'how often' question.

Depends on the poll and what you're trying to measure. If the question is, "How often do you go into Brown Thomas?", then "N/A" is not a valid answer.

However, if you're trying to get a measure of the numbers of your faith *and* the level of attendance among those, then you either require an "NA" answer, or you exclude those of other faiths from your results.

Otherwise, all you have is a bare statistic which says nothing. Maybe more people are going into the church building to get out the crap weather we've been having, or because they're bored, or maybe more people are dying this year than last year. There are definitely more weddings & christenings - maybe that's where the greater footfall is coming from. But again, that tells you nothing about your faith's community and their dedication.

Incuding non-Catholics in your results actually creates more questions than it answers.

prinz

seamus wrote: »

Can I ask why? Surely as an atheist (which I assume you are), it's just a complete waste of time. What are you getting out of it?

I hate RomComs, but I go because my OH wants to go.. and I want to be with her and make her happy.

seamus wrote: »

The reason they would not, is as I posed to Malty above. It's the same reason I wouldn't want nor expect my wife to accompany me on the golf course and just follow me around all day - because it's a complete waste of her time if she's not participating.

You see the question was based on attendance, not faith, participation etc. And as you said yourself you have attended in the last year, why did you go to a funeral? Waste of time?

seamus wrote: »

Xmas carols are a different thing altogether - it's perfectly possible and reasonable to enjoy music without caring about the meaning behind the words. Most people do it for all types of music..

But it's not possible for an atheist to spend half an hour in a church service, without caring about the meaning behind the words?

seamus wrote: »

Does that make it clearer the point I'm trying to make?

No, not really.

seamus wrote: »

Maybe more people are going into the church building to get out the crap weather we've been having, or because they're bored, or maybe more people are dying this year than last year. There are definitely more weddings & christenings - maybe that's where the greater footfall is coming from. But again, that tells you nothing about your faith's community and their dedication..

So you agree that people attend services for all sorts of reasons that have no bearing whatsoever on their actual belief...would you attend a friend's wedding? A relatives Christening?

seamus wrote: »

That is, I find it surprising that just 1 per cent of people claimed to "never attend mass", when the last census showed that 4.4% of people had no religion. ..

:rolleyes:

PDN

seamus wrote: »

Depends on the poll and what you're trying to measure. If the question is, "How often do you go into Brown Thomas?", then "N/A" is not a valid answer.

However, if you're trying to get a measure of the numbers of your faith *and* the level of attendance among those, then you either require an "NA" answer, or you exclude those of other faiths from your results.

Otherwise, all you have is a bare statistic which says nothing. Maybe more people are going into the church building to get out the crap weather we've been having, or because they're bored, or maybe more people are dying this year than last year. There are definitely more weddings & christenings - maybe that's where the greater footfall is coming from. But again, that tells you nothing about your faith's community and their dedication.

Incuding non-Catholics in your results actually creates more questions than it answers.

The poll, according to the OP, was not about Catholicism. It was about going to Church. In fact, without seeing the actual questions, I suspect it may have asked about 'attending worship' - that would be a more usual wording and so would include Jews & Muslims etc.

Most people, I think, recognise that those going into a church to shelter from the cold are hardly going to skew the figures to any meaningful degree from a statistical standpoint.

And, while christening and weddings may have increased, do you think they are now so frequent as to account for the increase in those who attend church weekly? That would be at least 52 weddings or christenings a year!

seamus

prinz wrote: »

I hate RomComs, but I go because my OH wants to go.. and I want to be with her and make her happy.

So you're equating the practice of one's faith with attending a comedy? Besides, regardless of how much you hate romcom's, it will always be entertainment of a sort. If your OH went to a lecture about the effect of women's rights on the pygmy shrew of southern dakota every single week, would you accompany her every week? Would you expect every woman there to be accompanied by their partner? I accept what you're saying about keeping the other half happy, but I dismiss the idea that this would account for a large proportion of atheist attendees.

And as you said yourself you have attended in the last year, why did you go to a funeral? Waste of time?

Now that's a stupid question. Would you avoid a friend's funeral because they decided to have a Jewish ceremony? No? Why not?

But it's not possible for an atheist to spend half an hour in a church service, without caring about the meaning behind the words?

Of course it is, but if you're not listening to the words, what else is there? Like a deaf man going to a concert. Do you think that 75% of deaf people would consider themselves concert-goers?

So you agree that people attend services for all sorts of reasons that have no bearing whatsoever on their actual belief...would you attend a friend's wedding? A relatives Christening?

But that's precisely my point. If you're including non-Catholics who are attending for incidental purposes, then the results of your survey are meaningless and don't give any cause to say, "People are coming back to the church".

postcynical

I've no idea whether it's accurate or not and unless many people who claim to be atheist are closet Christians I don't understand this 4% atheist/agnostic figure from the census either. However Mass attendances were always surprisingly high, even during the boom - I'm pretty sure I'd read upwards of a million Irish Catholics in Ireland went to Mass every Sunday (excluding worshippers of other denominations or religions). Maybe I got this notion from a similar source:rolleyes:

But the bubble of Irish people is getting older now - and there's a bulge of 30 somethings/late 20s which is typically the age people convert to Christianity. The same effect is evident with the collapse in the value of apartments as many of the then-single occupiers (early 20s) are looking for more space as they have families (early-late 30s).

I'd say any slight increase is due to the above but I'd be very sceptical about any inferences drawn from these data and am quite sceptical about the data themselves.

prinz

seamus wrote: »

So you're equating the practice of one's faith with attending a comedy?

No I did not. The very fact that this is how you come back enlightens me that you're attempting to stir and not much else.

seamus wrote: »

Besides, regardless of how much you hate romcom's, it will always be entertainment of a sort. If your OH went to a lecture about the effect of women's rights on the pygmy shrew of southern dakota every single week, would you accompany her every week? Would you expect every woman there to be accompanied by their partner?

Depends, if she lived her life centred on all things pygmy shrew then yes would, of course I would. It would help me to know her better.

seamus wrote: »

I accept what you're saying about keeping the other half happy, but I dismiss the idea that this would account for a large proportion of atheist attendees.

I never said it did account for a large proportion of "atheist attendees".. (a notion which you dismissed outright earlier on - I take it you now admit that one can attend church services and still be an atheist?}

seamus wrote: »

Now that's a stupid question. Would you avoid a friend's funeral because they decided to have a Jewish ceremony? No? Why not?

Why is it a stupid question? By your own admission you have been to a church service in the past year. Therefore if someone asks you "have you been at a church service in the past year?" what's your answer? Yes....
Does that mean you're not an atheist now?

seamus wrote: »

Of course it is, but if you're not listening to the words, what else is there? Like a deaf man going to a concert. Do you think that 75% of deaf people would consider themselves concert-goers?

Ever gone to a shop and not bought anything? Where is this 75% coming from again?

seamus wrote: »

But that's precisely my point. If you're including non-Catholics who are attending for incidental purposes, then the results of your survey are meaningless and don't give any cause to say, "People are coming back to the church".

In case you hadn't noticed, that's actually the point I was making originally, that counting the numbers attending is not an actual reflection of the numbers of 'faithful'.

seamus

prinz wrote: »

Depends, if she lived her life centred on all things pygmy shrew then yes would, of course I would. It would help me to know her better.

Well, I find that bizarre, but if you say so.

I never said it did account for a large proportion of "atheist attendees".. (a notion which you dismissed outright earlier on - I take it you now admit that one can attend church services and still be an atheist?}

My contention is that an atheist can "attend" church and participate. They don't/can't. There's a world of difference between being in the building and "attending" the service.

Why is it a stupid question? By your own admission you have been to a church service in the past year. Therefore if someone asks you "have you been at a church service in the past year?" what's your answer? Yes....
Does that mean you're not an atheist now?

I'm not atheist
My point being that again, there's a difference between being there and actually being part of the service.

Ever gone to a shop and not bought anything? Where is this 75% coming from again?

It's nothing like a shop, that's the difference. The 75% is that 4% of people have "no religion" according to the census, yet IONA claim that only 1% of people "never" go to mass. Therefore 75% (or more!) of people with "no religion" go to mass. I find that hard to believe.

In case you hadn't noticed, that's actually the point I was making originally, that counting the numbers attending is not an actual reflection of the numbers of 'faithful'.

I hadn't noticed that, but I'm glad we're debating the same point

prinz

seamus wrote: »

Well, I find that bizarre, but if you say so.

You find it bizarre that someone would want to get involved in their OH's primary interest in life? More than that, the very basis of how she lives her life? I find that bizarre.

seamus wrote: »

My contention is that an atheist can "attend" church and participate. They don't/can't. There's a world of difference between being in the building and "attending" the service.

Is there? If I go to a match in Croker but read a book, do I say yes I attended the match or do I say no I didn't attend?

seamus wrote: »

I'm not atheist .

Fair enough.

seamus wrote: »

My point being that again, there's a difference between being there and actually being part of the service..

Except the question in the survey seems to be attendance rather than participation and faith. Of course attendance figures will always be higher than numbers of the actual religious faithful present.

seamus wrote: »

It's nothing like a shop, that's the difference. The 75% is that 4% of people have "no religion" according to the census, yet IONA claim that only 1% of people "never" go to mass. Therefore 75% (or more!) of people with "no religion" go to mass. I find that hard to believe...

As above, you are confusing attendance and belief.

seamus wrote: »

I hadn't noticed that, but I'm glad we're debating the same point

Yup, using the numbers attending as a way to measure faith etc is always going to have a significant material margin of error.

faceman

I dont give the survey much creedence. 4% of a sample of 1,000 people is too small to consider a solid representation of the nation, its largely negligible. Also the survey was carried over a short period. I imagine the number of weddings over the summer months are higher and could influence the church going figures.

I dont see any evidence in the survey either way linking the recession to church going.