letting some one borrow your gun

ronn

a lad in my club is waiting on his licence to come through, what would be the story if he used one of my guns, id be with him at all times and he wouldnt be storing the gun, just giving him a loan of it for a few hours,

is this allowed,

homerhop

Nop. he is not named on the licence for it

Cass

NO. If either of you are caught both of you can kiss your firearms (or firearms to be goodbye) You for giving someone a gun they are not licensed to carry , use and your mate for using said firearm.

Its your decision at the end of the day but i would not risk it.

locum-motion

ronn wrote: »

a lad in my club is waiting on his licence to come through, what would be the story if he used one of my guns, id be with him at all times and he wouldnt be storing the gun, just giving him a loan of it for a few hours,

is this allowed,

When you say he's waiting for his licence, do you mean a new licence under the new system, or is it his first licence ever?

On the new licence application form, there's a wee spot for you to enter the licence number of any other person who might have use of your gun. Obviously they too must be a licence holder, coz otherwise they won't have a licence number to enter.

If your friend previously held a licence under the old regime, then that licence has been extended for between 3 and 9 months and is still valid. So, if you haven't already applied, stick that licence number on your application and send it in.

Then, go and have a word with the Super or whoever will be making the decision on the licence applications. Explain the situation. Ask what's the situation with your friend using the gun while you wait. Maybe (just maybe) the Super will say "Go ahead, no problem". Bit of a long shot, I know, but I'd say he'd probably appreciate you being upfront about it. Of course, he might just say "No way." Or another possibility is that he might make an effort to process your applications ASAP. Can't do any harm to ask, right?

Of course, all of that's a moot point if your friend's waiting for his first licence.

lucy333springer

ronn wrote: »

a lad in my club is waiting on his licence to come through, what would be the story if he used one of my guns, id be with him at all times and he wouldnt be storing the gun, just giving him a loan of it for a few hours,

is this allowed,[/quote
RONN

I think YES,
how's someone ever going to get into shooting if they're not going to get a chance to shoot a gun, imagine applying for licence, gun cabinet, deposit on gun, and then after a club shoot not liking it, money down the drain do'nt you think.
Also young shots need to try. I think it's ok, and very important to stand beside a novice shooter firing your gun, talking to him about gun's and also safety.
Before we got into shooting my son and I attened a clay shoot, we both got shooting, he's 13, i'm that little bit older,that was us hooked.:D

Cass

locum-motion wrote: »

Then, go and have a word with the Super or whoever will be making the decision on the licence applications. Explain the situation. Ask what's the situation with your friend using the gun while you wait. Maybe (just maybe) the Super will say "Go ahead, no problem". Bit of a long shot, I know, but I'd say he'd probably appreciate you being upfront about it. Of course, he might just say "No way." Or another possibility is that he might make an effort to process your applications ASAP. Can't do any harm to ask, right?
.

Can't see any super okaying the possesion and use of an illegally held firearm. He will look at it from a lawful point of view. I could be wrong but i very much doubt it and if he does refuse you bring undue attention on yourself as the notion will be in hos head that this lad loans out guns. Just a thought.

Lucy
There is a subtle difference between letting a lad have a sneaky shot or three from your gun to giving a lad your gun for a day or a few days over a few weeks. Hard to explain to a Garda (if stopped) why someone else has your gun when you're holding one yourself. Legally he cannot even handle your gun.

Its a choice. A) Take the risk, don't get caught, all is well
Take the risk, get caught, loose everything (possibly)

I started the same as everyone else, by having a shot from my fathers gun when i was a lad, but that was it. He carried and used it and i got the occassional shot.

ronn

thanks for your replies just confirmed what i was thinking, He s only starting out i was going to bring him out and give him a few pointers, think the best way to go about it be just bring out the one gun and give him a go of that in the middle of no mans land,

locum-motion

lucy333springer wrote: »

ronn wrote: »

a lad in my club is waiting on his licence to come through, what would be the story if he used one of my guns, id be with him at all times and he wouldnt be storing the gun, just giving him a loan of it for a few hours,

is this allowed,[/quote
RONN

I think YES,
how's someone ever going to get into shooting if they're not going to get a chance to shoot a gun, imagine applying for licence, gun cabinet, deposit on gun, and then after a club shoot not liking it, money down the drain do'nt you think.
Also young shots need to try. I think it's ok, and very important to stand beside a novice shooter firing your gun, talking to him about gun's and also safety.
Before we got into shooting my son and I attened a clay shoot, we both got shooting, he's 13, i'm that little bit older,that was us hooked.:D

There's a section in the new application form that covers that too. You can apply for a training licence. When I started (under the old system, obviously) I applied for a licence for my father's guns. Same for my brother, and nephew.
Ronn's mate can apply for a training licence, and specify Ronn's gun on the application. Then if he decides to buy his own gun he can apply for that gun.
Now, with all that being said, what's the story with adventure centres, hotels etc who allow any Joe Bloggs to turn up, pay a few quid, and bang off at a load of clays? Is there a special kind of licence for them, or are they just risking it?

lucy333springer

ronn wrote: »

id be with him at all times


I think everone's reading to deep about this, my understanding is the guy just want's to shoot, should it be at a clay shoot, walk up, or in the top of the mourne mountains, for 1 hour or all day, (ezridax he never said weeks? he he.)
No supers, No licence filling in, just stand with him, think of the first time you shot, you must of handled a gun with no licence, shot some rounds, and enjoyed it.

Sparks

ronn wrote: »

a lad in my club is waiting on his licence to come through, what would be the story if he used one of my guns, id be with him at all times and he wouldnt be storing the gun, just giving him a loan of it for a few hours,
is this allowed,

If you are target shooting on a range, yes. Section 2(4)(d) covers that. But be sure to check if it breaks any local range rules first.
If you are hunting, no.

Cass

lucy333springer wrote: »

No supers, No licence filling in, just stand with him, think of the first time you shot, you must of handled a gun with no licence, shot some rounds, and enjoyed it.

I think this covered that............

I started the same as everyone else, by having a shot from my fathers gun when i was a lad, but that was it. He carried and used it and i got the occassional shot.

I'm not trying to be a brown nose or "Mr prim and proper". I could tell ronn to go for it, flout the law and let anyone he wants use any of his guns with no regard for the possible consequences, but my first thought is always to give the best advice possible that follows the letter of the law.

We all know things do not run exactly as they should, otherwise no-one would fire a gun until they were 16+. That being said if it were any other year this wouldn't really be an issue but with all the things going on in relation to extensions running out, no grant letters, no licenses and all the "grey" area in between i think it best to air on the side of caution.

Originally posted by locum-motion

There's a section in the new application form that covers that too. You can apply for a training licence

If he is old enough (as he is waiting on his own license i assume he is) he can apply for a full license on ronn's gun. If he has already applied for his own license there may be no point as he could have his own license before the training cert or license on ronn's gun comes back.

Sparks

ezridax wrote: »

I'm not trying to be a brown nose or "Mr prim and proper". I could tell ronn to go for it, flout the law and let anyone he wants use any of his guns with no regard for the possible consequences, but my first thought is always to give the best advice possible that follows the letter of the law.

And it's a good thought. But so long as ronn's on a firing range, Section 2(4)(d) explicitly permits him to let someone else use his firearm, regardless of whether they have a licence for it or not.
Now if he's hunting, that's a whole other ball of wax and is quite illegal.

maglite

ezridax wrote: »

Legally he cannot even handle your gun

Firearms Act, 1925 2.—(1)

Subject to the exceptions from this section hereinafter mentioned, it shall not be lawful for any person after the commencement of this Act to have in his possession, use, or carry any firearm or ammunition save in so far as such possession, use, or carriage is authorised by a firearm certificate granted under this Act and for the time being in force.
[GA]

(2) Save in any of the cases hereinafter excepted from this section, every person who after the commencement of this Act has in his possession, uses, or carries any firearm without holding a firearm certificate therefor or otherwise than as authorised by such certificate, or purchases, uses, has in his possession, or carries any ammunition without holding a firearm certificate therefor or in quantities in excess of those authorised by such certificate, or fails to comply with any condition subject to which a firearm certificate was granted to him, shall be guilty of an offence under this Act and shall be punishable accordingly.
[GA]

(3) This section shall not apply to any of the following cases and such cases are accordingly excepted from this section, that is to say:—

the carriage for sporting purposes only of a firearm or ammunition under instructions from and for the use of the holder of a firearm certificate for such firearm or ammunition;

lucy333springer

ronn wrote: »

thanks for your replies just confirmed what i was thinking, He s only starting out i was going to bring him out and give him a few pointers, think the best way to go about it be just bring out the one gun and give him a go of that in the middle of no mans land,

Good RONN,
Great to read someone with a bit of common sense, giving the lad some of your valuable tiime and experence, maybe he'll return the favour to someone else wanting a shot some day, you're not wanted men, the gardai arn't spying on you,I also know it's a bit of a grey area where your at, it's a pity your so far down the country, you could of sent him here to Derry for a shot, most welcome.:)

lucy333springer

ezridax wrote: »

I started the same as everyone else, by having a shot from my fathers gun when i was a lad, but that was it. He carried and used it and i got the occassional shot.

Ezridax

Here's hoping that he did'nt hold and point the gun,
and you pulled the trigger with a glove on.
Cop on only a couple of shot's.:rolleyes:

Sparks

maglite wrote: »

the carriage for sporting purposes only of a firearm or ammunition under instructions from and for the use of the holder of a firearm certificate for such firearm or ammunition;

Yeah, that says someone can carry a firearm for the owner, not that they can use it themselves.
You want 2(4)(d).

Cass

Sparks wrote: »

And it's a good thought. But so long as ronn's on a firing range, Section 2(4)(d) explicitly permits him to let someone else use his firearm, regardless of whether they have a licence for it or not.
Now if he's hunting, that's a whole other ball of wax and is quite illegal.

As it was in the hunting forum i assumed it was not on a range. Apologies if it was.

Originally Posted by lucy333springer

Here's hoping that he did'nt hold and point the gun,
and you pulled the trigger with a glove on.
Cop on only a couple of shot's.

Sarcasm is the recourse of a weak mind my friend. I merely pointed out some of the re percussions should he get caught. Chances are he will never be. I make no apologies for pointing out the obvious. He is free to igore what i say, take it on board and proceed anyway or heed it and not loan out his gun. In any instance it is no skin of my nose what happens, but i would sooner tell someone all the possibilities, good and bad, rather than have someone, "cough" tell them to push on and not to worry as though the bad consequences could never happen.

lucy333springer

Friend,
We must read these thread's throughly, before the clicking start's,
Thank's anyhow ezridax for your input, much appreicted.

pedroeibar

Why is everyone getting so uptight about this? Any law is only as good as its enforcement. When did you last meet a garda in the middle of a snipe bog?
Once or twice a year I have mates who come over from the UK to shoot with me and I always provide them with guns to avoid the hassle and cost of bringing their own. Similarly, they lend me a gun when I’m shooting with them in the UK.
If the license holder was with the user it would be a very officious garda who would make an issue over it. Should it go to court any judge would look favourably on a licensed, insured shooter brought up for using a gun that did not belong to him.
Chill, and worry about more important things.
P.

Sparks

pedroeibar wrote: »

When did you last meet a garda in the middle of a snipe bog?

Never have.
I know there are several reading this forum though.
And like the charter says,

Advocating, condoning or soliciting information about breaking the law is prohibited; this includes but is not limited to:
breaching conditions of a license or authorisation;
use of a firearm for any purpose for which it is not licensed;
avoidance of taxes and duties.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

And it's a good thought. But so long as ronn's on a firing range, Section 2(4)(d) explicitly permits him to let someone else use his firearm, regardless of whether they have a licence for it or not.
Now if he's hunting, that's a whole other ball of wax and is quite illegal.

Well actually it refers to club, range or any other place that stands authorised under 2(4)(d).

Not just a range.

The NTSA are advising people whose extensions have run out to get a temporary 2(3)(a) permit from their Super and that will allow them shoot in competitions in the meantime providing that the ranges they shoot on have a 2(4)(d) authorisation.

pedroeibar

Sparks wrote: »

Never have.
I know there are several reading this forum though.
And like the charter says,

Sparks,
Maybe I’m sailing close to the Charter, but this is a mountain out of a mole hill. I’m neither advocating nor condoning any illegal activity, I am simply stating what is going on – and has gone on – up and down the country.
Legal minds might not like the “Shur it’ll be allright” attitude in respect to some laws, but it is Ireland where that is how things are done. After all, it was only a year or so ago when several laws were repealed, such as an Act of 1310 which provided that only Englishmen and women were entitled "to be received into religious orders", an Act from 1360 forbidding anyone from sending their child to be nursed by an Irishwoman and a law from 1410 that gave defendants three weeks to travel for a court appearance.
The Gardai have enough work on their plates without making more for themselves. All the ones I've spoken to are against the new firearms procedures (tho' a few are negative on short arms) and very much on the side of the sports shooter.
P.

Sparks

pedroeibar wrote: »

I am simply stating what is going on – and has gone on – up and down the country.

Stating is one thing. Advising is another. The latter's not allowed under the charter, the former is accusing someone of an illegal act.
So neither's really "good" if you follow me.

rrpc

Pedro

There's a world of difference between your Garda Sergeant saying "off you go, you'll be fine" to you in person and you giving the same advice in print on an internet forum.

For all you know, my Sergeant would have me locked up in minutes or would take a very dim view and recommend my licence not be granted.

And it is illegal to possess and use a firearm without a certificate, so advocating it here is going against the charter.

Nobody's going to ban you for telling your mates on the phone what you were advised.

Do you understand the subtle difference?

Cass

rrpc wrote: »

The NTSA are advising people whose extensions have run out to get a temporary 2(3)(a) permit from their Super and that will allow them shoot in competitions in the meantime providing that the ranges they shoot on have a 2(4)(d) authorisation.

I tried to get something like that when i thought my licenses were not going to be here on time. Was told the same as all the others "you'll be okay, you don't need it". My game club and Target club have advised all members that unless they have an indate extension or full current license (not a grant letter) to not run the risk and leave their firearms at home until they have their license. (Obviously if your extension is still in date then its a moot point)

As mentioned before we all know how things work in a real world scenario but as with the clubs, they and i are airing on the sie of caution. Everyone is free to make their own decision and take the chance or not.I have no doubt if someone came across a Garda when out there would be little to no fuss, my concern would be coming across a newbie (Garda) or someone having a "bad day" and they decide to take your fiearm(s). Its unlikely but still............

In relation to the range, its their rersponsibility to make sure everyone on site has a current license (extension) and they must record those new licenses. If you don't have one then (someone can clarify the specifics on this) they should not let you use/carry/fire the firearm on the range.

rrpc

ezridax wrote: »

In relation to the range, its their rersponsibility to make sure everyone on site has a current license (extension) and they must record those new licenses. If you don't have one then (someone can clarify the specifics on this) they should not let you use/carry/fire the firearm on the range.

2(4)(d) in context. You can see that if the club is authorised under 2(4)(d) then it's ok to use your rifle there whether or not you have a licence for it. :eek:. The difficulty is getting the rifle there in the first place whcih is why a 2(3)(a) permit is recommended which allows you possess and carry but not use the rifle. Or you could have your dealer bring it.

(2) Save in any of the cases hereinafter excepted from this section, every person who after the commencement of this Act has in his possession, uses, or carries any firearm without holding a firearm certificate therefor or otherwise than as authorised by such certificate, or purchases, uses, has in his possession, or carries any ammunition without holding a firearm certificate therefor or in
quantities in excess of those authorised by such certificate, or fails to comply with any condition subject to which a firearm certificate was granted to him, shall be guilty of an offence under this Act and shall be punishable accordingly.
(4) This section shall not apply to any of the following cases and such cases are accordingly excepted from this section, that is to say:
(d) the possession, use or carriage of a firearm or ammunition during a competition or target practice at a club, shooting range or any other place that stands authorised under this section or section 4A of this Act.

Do you understand?

Cass

So i can use the firearms at the range for target work or competition but without a license or permit cannot transport them to and from the range. Have i got it right?

So why then are some ranges/clubs etc advising members not to bring over any firearms? Is it they do not want people to be caught transporting them without a permit/license? Are they being overtly cautious? Or could there be a misunderstanding of the rules?


Just to add another question, do the firearms have to be registered/licensed to the club/range? If i was firing my rifle on the range and a Garda came and asked for my license where would i stand? Would i explain the rifle is registered/stored at the range? If the range/club had the secure facilities to store the firearms, why bother with a license? You could not purchase a firearm or another without a license so you need a license to buy a gun but not to fire it on a range?

Confusing myself. It seems to go around in circles. "You do need this but don't actually". "You need it for this but not for this".

rrpc

ezridax wrote: »

So i can use the firearms at the range for target work or competition but without a license or permit cannot transport them to and from the range. Have i got it right?

Yes.

So why then are some ranges/clubs etc advising members not to bring over any firearms? Is it they do not want people to be caught transporting them without a permit/license? Are they being overtly cautious? Or could there be a misunderstanding of the rules?

Some clubs don't have 2(4)(d) authorisations and so it doesn't apply. Others may not be aware of the full extent of the use of the legislation. Some may, as you say, not want people to be transporting unlicensed firearms.

Just to add another question, do the firearms have to be registered/licensed to the club/range? If i was firing my rifle on the range and a Garda came and asked for my license where would i stand? Would i explain the rifle is registered/stored at the range? If the range/club had the secure facilities to store the firearms, why bother with a license? You could not purchase a firearm or another without a license so you need a license to buy a gun but not to fire it on a range?

All firearms need a licence or permit of some kind. Either the firearm is listed on the club authorisation, is licensed by you or another member or is on a permit issued by a Garda Superintendent. It could also be subject to one of the other exceptions in sections 2(3) and 2(4) of the Firearms Act.

Many clubs have authorisations and hold firearms on those authorisations. The University clubs have quite a few air rifles (otherwise how would the members ever get to train or compete?). It's not necessary that the club keep the firearms on site, a designated member with the required security can hold them.

Cass

Cheers lad, clears it up.

lucy333springer

pedroeibar wrote: »

Why is everyone getting so uptight about this? Any law is only as good as its enforcement. When did you last meet a garda in the middle of a snipe bog?
Once or twice a year I have mates who come over from the UK to shoot with me and I always provide them with guns to avoid the hassle and cost of bringing their own. Similarly, they lend me a gun when I’m shooting with them in the UK.
If the license holder was with the user it would be a very officious garda who would make an issue over it. Should it go to court any judge would look favourably on a licensed, insured shooter brought up for using a gun that did not belong to him.
Chill, and worry about more important things.
P.

pedroeibar

Here here,
well said, I think that's it for me on this topic, heard enough stupid ganshing to do me a life time, we all know gun's are lent to friend's and new shooters, whilst we're present, some people just don't see to the other side.