The issue of Judge Aingeal Ni Chonduin's comments regarding Roma parents.

denhaagenite

Sparked from a thread in After Hours which will be closed later today, what are everyone's thoughts on this?

Does anyone have any factual insight into the Roma's status in Ireland and why the Guardai, social services and courts don't seem to do alot about the crimes some Roma commit and the obvious problems that their children encounter?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/roma-raise-children-to-steal--judge-1927439.html

Coriolanus

denhaagenite wrote: »

Sparked from a thread in After Hours which will be closed later today, what are everyone's thoughts on this?

Does anyone have any factual insight into the Roma's status in Ireland and why the Guardai, social services and courts don't seem to do alot about the crimes some Roma commit and the obvious problems that their children encounter?

I don't know why people expect the guards, social services and courts to do anymore with the Roma than they do with "problem" Traveller and non-Traveller families that are just as dysfunctional and criminal.
Petty crime in Ireland is endemic and the problems in tackling it are so huge that nothing but root and branch reform of all aspects of the Justice system is going to solve it.

For every story of someone getting robbed by a Roma, I'll match it with one of someone getting raped/robbed/assaulted by an Irishman out on bail for their 43rd offense.

Klingon Hamlet

Like everything else in Ireland, the gov don't know how to prevent the problem or fix it, all they do is hide behind bureaucracy and turn a blind eye to the state of the country. Crime is rife and prisons crowded. Education is patchy and society in general is sliding towards disaster. Everyone in this country, whether native, citizen or immigrant, must, in exchange for equal rights, abide by this country's moral ethics and national laws or pay the price...otherwise kick 'em out, Irish or no.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

denhaagenite

Thanks for the reopen donegalfella

Nevore wrote: »

I don't know why people expect the guards, social services and courts to do anymore with the Roma than they do with "problem" Traveller and non-Traveller families that are just as dysfunctional and criminal.
Petty crime in Ireland is endemic and the problems in tackling it are so huge that nothing but root and branch reform of all aspects of the Justice system is going to solve it.

For every story of someone getting robbed by a Roma, I'll match it with one of someone getting raped/robbed/assaulted by an Irishman out on bail for their 43rd offense.

That may be true, but since when is statutory rape a petty crime? If the girl was 15 when she had the baby, and her partner is 5 years older that's what it amounts to. Also the fact that she was brought to Ireland 13 by non family members raises a question, don't you think?

Does anyone know the status of Roma in Ireland?

PaulieD

What is the solution? It is an european wide issue that needs to be solved. Give the Roma their own state, perhaps?

Coriolanus

denhaagenite wrote: »

Thanks for the reopen donegalfella




That may be true, but since when is statutory rape a petty crime? If the girl was 15 when she had the baby, and her partner is 5 years older that's what it amounts to. Also the fact that she was brought to Ireland 13 by non family members raises a question, don't you think?

Does anyone know the status of Roma in Ireland?

It's not a petty crime, the statrape wasn't what I was referring to.

Anyway, my original point still stand. Crime, petty or otherwise is endemic in the state and the current level of services in the Gardai, Courts, Prison and Social services aren't adequate to deal with it.

Specifying this case, the HSE decided that no action was necessary regarding her home situation ie: Living with her 5 year senious partners family as a sixteen year old mother of a toddler.

Now the Gardai, fulfilled their duty here. She was arrested and brought to court.

The courts however are where things get tangled. The prison services in Ireland for youth offenders are notorious for lack of funding, abuses and being a institutes of higher crime learning as well as promulgating drug use.

Do you want the girl taken in there? Personally, I don't think it's appropriate for the State to take anyone into care, custodial or otherwise, when they can't guarantee basic dignity and safety.

Now, I'm not saying that wha'ts going on in this girls life is alright, I certainly wouldn't want a sister or daughter to be in it.

What I am saying is that the lack of action regarding the Roma is nothing more than a symptom of problems throughout the system. People present the issue as if the criminal elements in the Roma are getting a free card, but truth be told, every part of the Justice system is struggling to stem the tide, whther the offenders be Roma, Travellers, white collar middle class drug dealers or vicious thugs from West Dublin.

denhaagenite

I just don't understand why the children are being failed. I just don't get it. I don't necessarily agree with the comments but at the same time she sent the child home with no real understanding of what happened, back to the people who are basically abusing her.

I actually have no problem with grown adults begging, it's just when children are being used to do this instead of being sent to school they should be properly sanctioned. If my parents had kept me out of school for no reason when I was her age you can be damn sure the hse would have been breathing down their necks about it, what's different about these people?

I just wish that this issue could be properly discussed. It is not racist to try and do something for the generation that are coming up now. If it doesn't get talked about, nothing can be done and the cycle will continue.

Coriolanus

denhaagenite wrote: »

I just don't understand why the children are being failed. I just don't get it.

Because the systems are a morass of legal redtape and have underfunded frontline operatives with an excess middle and upper clerical and executive officers. What money the state does have for spending on issues like these is being grossly misspent.

If my parents had kept me out of school for no reason when I was her age you can be damn sure the hse would have been breathing down their necks about it, what's different about these people?

Don't kid yourself, there's plenty of Irish kids in similarly being failed, first by their own families and then by the state that fails to intervene in an appropriate manner. This isn't a case of the state turning a blind eye to the Roma. They're just being failed as badly as the rest of the marginalised in Ireland.

denhaagenite

So what do children's social services actually do in Ireland then? For them to deem it "alright" for her to go back and live with the paedophile who had been raping her for five years is insanity. I wasn't talking about sending her to prison (although maybe the adults in the case should), there are group homes in every major city and she would have been better off being sent away from Dublin anyway. Nobody was thinking about that girls best interest, and probably not the best interests of her child either.

I have just looked up the political status of Roma (on Pavee Point!). This is their official line:

"Like other migrant’s Roma come to Ireland for different reasons. When the new accession countries joined the EU, the Roma came as migrant workers seeking a chance of a better life. Others came prior to the accession of the 12 new countries to the EU seeking asylum from the persecution suffered in their home countries because of racial harassment , brutality from police and religious persecution. Some of these are now granted refuges status, whilst others have been given leave to remain resident in Ireland on the basis of having an Irish born child. Many Roma have been in Ireland for up to 10 years and many have been granted citizenship through the naturalisation process and are now Irish Citizens."

Does anyone think that maybe a separation of these four types of people would help towards changing people's beliefs?

Coriolanus

I'll post more fully later, but her's a good article from the start of the year that would be part of why I'm hesitant to call for any child to be taken into state care.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0523/1224247218201.html

None of this is nearly enough on the radar of the public.

denhaagenite

I do have an opinion that the "donations" that are taken in court should be put back in the system to help fund the services that tackle the crimes commited rather than being donated to a random charity, not saying that the charities don't need or deserve them but maybe that's for another thread.

That is an interesting article, but having worked in a charity closely connected to the HSE it is the level of complacency within the HSE that is the problem, not a lack of funding. And that's all across the board, from hospital cleaners to top management. Granted caseloads are too heavy but I'd be surprised if people would give the job 100% even if they weren't.

There need to be better checks done to ensure people are doing their jobs properly.

denhaagenite

Just thought this was interesting and quite ironically backs up my last post:

http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/report-finds-shortfalls-in-care-of-vulnerable-children-432941.html

Carelessness is the problem, not funding. Garda clearance is easy to get, provided you've got no previous convictions. In the place that I worked in, we had quite a few international employees and went to the trouble of sourcing good conduct certificates for them overseas.

MrMicra

In Switzerland between the 1930s and 1970s there was a routine policy of removing small children and babies from gypsy homes. This was done if the parents were living as nomads. At the time it was regarded as more humane than allowing the children to grow up in extreme poverty which the parents could accept as a lifestyle choice but the children could not.

I don't think that this policy could be implemented to help Roma children in Ireland without also implementing such a policy to help Irish traveller children. As Irish traveller's are in fact Irish the policy would violate article 41 of the constitution.

Coriolanus

denhaagenite wrote: »

1) I do have an opinion that the "donations" that are taken in court should be put back in the system to help fund the services that tackle the crimes commited rather than being donated to a random charity, not saying that the charities don't need or deserve them but maybe that's for another thread.

That is an interesting article, but having worked in a charity closely connected to the HSE it is the level of complacency within the HSE that is the problem, 2) not a lack of funding. And that's all across the board, from hospital cleaners to top management. Granted caseloads are too heavy but I'd be surprised if people would give the job 100% even if they weren't.

1) Well, personally, I wouldn't. While charities have admistrative costs aswell, that soak up some of the money from donations, I'd wager that the government has a much higher "wasteage" ratio. Even if the money was ring-fenced, say only for expenditure by the Justice Dept, or Social & Family, I've no doubt that the projected/expected donations in the coming fiscal year would be used as an excuse to trim their official budgets here and there.
2) Well, I don't beleive they're underfunded so much as they're badly funded. My only direct experience has been in the VEC's and Motor Tax Office, one I attended and one I worked in. The wasteage in both was appalling. From all reports the the same middle-management and clerical-heavy wages-sink is in operation in Health and Justice.

The news of the closure of that residential home that emerged today tend to just reinforce my view. The state can't run these facilties with any level of competency.

MrMicra wrote: »

In Switzerland between the 1930s and 1970s there was a routine policy of removing small children and babies from gypsy homes. This was done if the parents were living as nomads. At the time it was regarded as more humane than allowing the children to grow up in extreme poverty which the parents could accept as a lifestyle choice but the children could not.

I don't think that this policy could be implemented to help Roma children in Ireland without also implementing such a policy to help Irish traveller children. As Irish traveller's are in fact Irish the policy would violate article 41 of the constitution.

Wow... I'd never read of that before. Just did a bit of a snoop around, it's really appalling!

donaghs

If more Roma could get visibly involved in other professions, other than begging and theft it would certainly improve their image.

That would to some extent involve having skills for work, and a willingness of employers to take them on. If Roma children are not being sent to school, then they won't have the skill or qualifications to get jobs in Ireland, and their parents are reinforcing the judge's comments.

Coriolanus

donaghs wrote: »

Stuff

Hypothetical here: Roma gets a job, sheds long velveteen skirt et al and dons a McDonalds uniform. Stands next to a Greek, a Macedonian, a Muslim Albanian and a Romanian.

Can you tell, just by looking, which one was the Roma?

Sorry, but until some actual breakdown figures on the Roma in Ireland are seen, for all you know there's plenty of Roma working. "Ah sure I see them begging all the time" isn't going to fly here, sorry.

denhaagenite

Nevore wrote: »

Hypothetical here: Roma gets a job, sheds long velveteen skirt et al and dons a McDonalds uniform. Stands next to a Greek, a Macedonian, a Muslim Albanian and a Romanian.

Can you tell, just by looking, which one was the Roma?

Sorry, but until some actual breakdown figures on the Roma in Ireland are seen, for all you know there's plenty of Roma working. "Ah sure I see them begging all the time" isn't going to fly here, sorry.

While that is most definitely true in some cases, that was not what I was referring to at all. This thread is about the Roma who beg, commit crime and don't send their children to school and don't receive any punishment for it.

Coriolanus

denhaagenite wrote: »

While that is most definitely true in some cases, that was not what I was referring to at all. This thread is about the Roma who beg, commit crime and don't send their children to school and don't receive any punishment for it.

Last post was @ Donaghs post.

denhaagenite

Nevore wrote: »

Last post was @ Donaghs post.

'Pologies

donaghs

Nevore wrote: »

Hypothetical here: Roma gets a job, sheds long velveteen skirt et al and dons a McDonalds uniform. Stands next to a Greek, a Macedonian, a Muslim Albanian and a Romanian.

Can you tell, just by looking, which one was the Roma?

Sorry, but until some actual breakdown figures on the Roma in Ireland are seen, for all you know there's plenty of Roma working. "Ah sure I see them begging all the time" isn't going to fly here, sorry.

Nothing to apologise for. Although I didn't use the word "stuff". I'd be very interested to see a breakdown of figures also. That was part of the point of my post. It would certainly help reduce simple racial stereotyping. On the other hand, you shouldn't criticize people simply because they observe firsthand, lots of Romani begging.

Going back to the judges comments: unfair as they give the impression that all Roma criminal. But her comments are slightly more nuanced than the headline in the Indo. The main issue here that shouldn't be ignored is about children who are raised to steal from an early age.

the bonquer

i was told awhile ago five roma woman were taken to portlaoise police station for begging in the main square they were put into a holding cell and the five of them lifted their dresses and **** all over the cell what hope is there for the kids ?

Coriolanus

donaghs wrote: »

More stuff.

I used "stuff" to indicate I was responding to your post, without the need to re-print the whole lot.

What I was trying to address with my post was the fact that yes, on the face of it there are a lot of Roma beggars. I work in the city centre and well over half of the beggars I pass by are Roma, or at least look eastern European and wear clothes that are stereotypically Roma.
However, on the face of it isn't the whole picture, and it shouldn't be allowed to be presented that way just because we don't readily have figures to have.
For all we know the actual proportion is 10:1 in favour of working Roma, we just can't differentiate between the working Roma and the working Romanians, Italians, Albanians etc etc.

The observation fails on other levels anyway. Ten years ago, every beggar I saw was Irish with some English. Now, despite living only a couple hundred miles away from England, the only other English people I knew at the time were my cousins, who were practically Irish anyway, being kids of first gen immigrants.

Would it have been fair of me ten years ago to label the English as a race of thieves and beggars? Patently not.

It's a problem we see again and again, especially in ethnic relations. People draw massive conclusions from small and/or incomplete samples of a given populace.

While everyone of course is allowed to make observations, I'd like to think that Humanities is a bit different to AH. We ought to be looking at things a bit more rigourously.

I'm actually playing a bit of the devils advocate. I'd imagine that the statistics would endorse the common opinion of the Roma, in Ireland at least, but, you don't count your chickens before they hatch etc.

the bonquer wrote: »

Bonquer's stuff

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0122/breaking32.html
This sterling example of Irish motherhood forced her 13-year-old son to have sex with her and abused and starved her other five children in a rat-infested "house of horrors". That doesn't mean that it's a statistically signifigant occurence for Irish families in Roscommon.

walrusgumble

do some have refugee status? orparents of irish citizen children?

if not, what part of europe are they from/born/hold citizenship. are they working? have they worked (legally, the ones from Bulgaria & Romania still require work permits)

if not, its highely unlikely they are validly exercising their eu rights (after residing over 3 months) and are therefore liable for deportation.

profitius

Nevore wrote: »

For every story of someone getting robbed by a Roma, I'll match it with one of someone getting raped/robbed/assaulted by an Irishman out on bail for their 43rd offense.

If you're going to point out that there are Irish criminals at least point out the percentages of criminal Roma to criminal Irish.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Nevore wrote: »

However, on the face of it isn't the whole picture, and it shouldn't be allowed to be presented that way just because we don't readily have figures to have.
For all we know the actual proportion is 10:1 in favour of working Roma, we just can't differentiate between the working Roma and the working Romanians, Italians, Albanians etc etc.

I'd disagree. Over the years I've never once worked with a Roma. I've worked with Chinese, African, Jamaican, French, German, Polish, Lithuanian, Russian, Albanian, Romanian, Arabs, Turkish and Indians. Never once a Roma.

Also, they have a very distinct accent. Never heard it used by someone working in a shop.

Based on this I think its fair to assume very few of them are working.

The observation fails on other levels anyway. Ten years ago, every beggar I saw was Irish with some English. Now, despite living only a couple hundred miles away from England, the only other English people I knew at the time were my cousins, who were practically Irish anyway, being kids of first gen immigrants.

Would it have been fair of me ten years ago to label the English as a race of thieves and beggars? Patently not.

No, because you would have known/observed a far higher amount of English people working.

It's a problem we see again and again, especially in ethnic relations. People draw massive conclusions from small and/or incomplete samples of a given populace.

It is indeed. Doesn't mean its not true in some cases. I've never believed it for other ethnic minorities but I do for Romas

johnnyskeleton

the bonquer wrote:

i was told awhile ago five roma woman were taken to portlaoise police station for begging in the main square they were put into a holding cell and the five of them lifted their dresses and **** all over the cell what hope is there for the kids ?

If true (which I doubt) then they engaged in a dirty protest for being arrested for something which is not only not a criminal offence but is part of their constitutionally protected right to freedom of expression. Fair play to them.

asdasd

in a dirty protest for being arrested for something which is not only not a criminal offence but is part of their constitutionally protected right to freedom of expression. Fair play to them.

Begging is constitutionally protected? Or is sh*tting on floors constitutionally protected?

johnnyskeleton

asdasd wrote: »

Begging is constitutionally protected? Or is sh*tting on floors constitutionally protected?

Begging is constitutionally protected, or rather the part of begging which involves asking for alms is part of the right to free speech, which is constitutionally protected. The case was Dillon v. DPP.

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Government%20Approves%20plans%20to%20Change%20the%20Law%20on%20Begging

asdasd

So, begging is constitutionally protected until we get a proper law which doesnt disagree with the constitution. Hmm. Since loitering is a crime, I think that in the meantime the arrests should be for loitering.

Or they could be re-arrested for ****ting on the floor . If true.

Billiejo

denhaagenite wrote: »

Sparked from a thread in After Hours which will be closed later today, what are everyone's thoughts on this?

Does anyone have any factual insight into the Roma's status in Ireland and why the Guardai, social services and courts don't seem to do alot about the crimes some Roma commit and the obvious problems that their children encounter?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/roma-raise-children-to-steal--judge-1927439.html

Just compelled to say. I will never understand how such an intelligant nation can voice their opinions (albeit judgmental) so elloquently, and continue to allow amatures to manage & run services based on the historical policies of a bygone era.
Rephrase 'Roma & Traveller child'.
Then look at whether Ireland has an Equal, All Inclusive Child Welfare / Protection policy. The answer is no because some children in Ireland are viewed as a lesser class to warrent equality of care and attention.