Champions League GAA

Orizio

I'm fairly sure I saw overwhelming support on the front of the Sindo sport's section for a 'Champions League' style structure from both players and managers.

Can't find a link right now, but it seems fairly simple. Take Hurling for example. Take Kilkenny, Cork, Tipperary, Waterford, Limerick, Dublin, Clare, Offaly, Wexford and Galway. Put into two groups of five, everyone plays each other home and away and the best two teams in each group are drawn off in a semi and then the winners in the AI final. Furthermore, we could institute a bonus point system ala the Heineken Cup to make things more interesting. All of this has to be accompanied by a fairly big marketing campaign to drum up support and interest.

The same can be done for lower teams and their championships. And, for that matter, for the Intermediate, U-21 and U-18 grades, albeit with half the league games to ensure less fixture congestion and burn-out.

Problems:

(1) Gets rid of the provincial structure. Not a problem imo, as long as historic rivalries don't suffer - Cork/Tipp for example. And they won't, Cork/Tipp on the first championship sunday of summer is exciting whatever we choose to name the competition.

(2) Makes the national league even more obselete, however, we could bring in a ranking system, used for determining league places or positions in the championship, that would itself be determined by results in the national league. Arguably, this would make the National League more important then it is now.

(3) Antrim - will almost certainly complain; point out that they have been **** for decades, that this is almost completely their fault, that they should stop pitying themselves and that the likes of Clare, Offaly, Wexford etc have achieved more in recent times and deserve to be top tier. However, there has to be a consistent one up and one down promotion and relegation every year for every tier. This is essential.

Comments?

Daysha

I think most people at this stage can agree that something needs to be done, and while I agree with you in principle that a CL style format is the way to go, if there's one thing I don't want to get rid of it's losing the option of neutral venues for C'ship matches.

That's what Championship hurling is all about imo, two teams from around the country descending on places like Thurles with a good pitch in a good stadium and a mixture of team colours all around the stands. When you take away that and play them in shoddy grounds that have been crying out for renovations for decades (Cusack Park and Walsh Park just two examples) then it's just not the same anymore.

I would have no problem in the future going for home/away scenarios as long as all 10 counties could supply good quality grounds that can supply near the same type of intensity as what we see in neutral venues, but I don't think it would work right now.

Why not have double headers in neutral grounds of the course of the group stages? Lets assume all of Munster was in one group. One week we could see Limerick v Waterford and Clare v Tipp in Thurles, the next have Waterford v Cork and Tipp v Limerick in Pairc ui Chaiomh, then the following week go to Limerick and so on. Because there's 5 teams playing 4 matches you would need 5 different match days, so spread them out over a 2 month period, like from the first week in June to the last week in July. Two semi finals in Croker in August and the final in September.

I don't know what attendences would be like if you told fans you have to travel around the country 4 times just for the group stages, but it would still be better if Waterford were drawn at home to Kilkenny and you had a limited attendence of just 12,000 people.

Orizio

Well, you can just as easily have all games nuetral as home and away.

However, playing home and away has two advantages, first the atmosphere is often better at smaller, more partisan grounds, second more chance of upsets and finally, you could have important final games in Thurles (if the teams involve agree of course). Or the AI semis could be played in Thurles. I take your point about some grounds being dumps however.

Really though, its an easily changed point.

Benhonan

Orizio wrote: »

Well, you can just as easily have all games nuetral as home and away.

However, playing home and away has two advantages, first the atmosphere is often better at smaller, more partisan grounds, second more chance of upsets and finally, you could have important final games in Thurles (if the teams involve agree of course). Or the AI semis could be played in Thurles. I take your point about some grounds being dumps however.

Really though, its an easily changed point.

Yeah I agree, having at least the option of home and away games increases the drama and makes it far more exciting, having to dig out a win in a hostile environment or being able to rely on the home support for a vital fixture. I'd be in favour of it, but if it does happen it'll have to wait until this Galway in Leinster business is finished.

The main opposition to it comes from those ould fellas hawking on ad nauseum about the Munster championship, FFS only one of the Munster teams is even in the top three, get over it. It'd be good to have, say, Wexford minors playing Clare or Limerick minors, it doesn't happen often.

Orizio

Benhonan wrote: »

Yeah I agree, having at least the option of home and away games increases the drama and makes it far more exciting, having to dig out a win in a hostile environment or being able to rely on the home support for a vital fixture. I'd be in favour of it, but if it does happen it'll have to wait until this Galway in Leinster business is finished.

The main opposition to it comes from those ould fellas hawking on ad nauseum about the Munster championship, FFS only one of the Munster teams is even in the top three, get over it. It'd be good to have, say, Wexford minors playing Clare or Limerick minors, it doesn't happen often.

How so? Really, its a continuation of getting rid of the Ulster/Connacht championships, by further gettting rid of Leinster/Munster.

marathont

I agree with the champions league format. But I would have more groups and put the likes of antrim and laois in there as well, have some kind of seeding.

If the smaller grounds were getting more games with bigger crowds, then they could justify upgrading them. I think the GAA should be going for relatively small, but high quality stadiums around the country. It makes for better atmosphere when the place is packed.

Benhonan

Orizio wrote: »

How so? Really, its a continuation of getting rid of the Ulster/Connacht championships, by further gettting rid of Leinster/Munster.

Yeah I just mean they have it set for another two or three years that Galway have to remain in Leinster, so any championship restructuring will have to come after that.

eroo

I personally think a major change is needed or hurling in particular will suffer badly in coming years. I'm a Clare man, and love watching our lads in action. Rugby is my main sport; I play it and I love watching it. Hurling is my second love, but a love nonetheless.

I get to see Munster and the national Squad in action many, many times a year. This is why I love the sport so much. I love hurling too; but it dissapoints me year in, year out.

Why?

It does so because(in my own County's case), I saw the panel play 7 matches last year in the NHL. Then there was a considerable time gap until they played in Munster. After that, they had 1 match in the AI Championship and a relegation match. Obviously, if they had hurled better and won matches.. they would have played more matches as a result. So all in all the Clare Senior panel played 10 matches last year(only 2 of them would be considered very very important).. that panel trained months on end.. to essentially play 2 important matches. As a fan, there is no satisfaction in that. For the players, there is no satisfaction in that.

In comparison, Munster played 29 competitive games last season. Entertainment wise, for the fans, hurling has very little to offer. I firmly believe a new Championship system is needed.. give the fans what they want.. more competitive matches for their County!!

mrgaa1

I don't think the champions league would work mainly because, once again, its the club that gets screwed. The ordinary club players games would be once again left on hold to allow the "elite" players to finish off games.
Personally it should be as follows:

• Open draw - no provincial title
• staight forward knock-out competition - your beat your out
• played within a limited time-frame - lets say 3 months
• Once it gets to semi-final stage the inter-provincial championship starts - picked from teams knocked out out
• Raise the profile of the inter-provincial where the best players are on show. Games to be played the week(s) after the All-Ireland finals with the winning province to play the winning All-Ireland team in the GOAL match.
• All counties to agree time-frame for when their club championships are to be played and to stick to it religiously.
• 95% of gaelic players do not play for their county so treat them with respect

The GAA should keep Croke Park open for longer and use this revenue to assist clubs in providing better pitch's and floodlighting so that games can be played all year round and not squashed into a small time-frame.

Pride Fighter

What happens to Laois and Carlow Orizio.

Your idea is good. I would do what you do but not scrap the provincial titles. This can be done by grouping Kilkenny, Offaly, Wexford, Dublin and Galway, the winner of the group gets the Leinster championship. The other group of Cork, Waterford, Clare, Limerick and Tipp are always grouped and the winner gets the Munster title.

Daysha

mrgaa1 wrote: »

I don't think the champions league would work mainly because, once again, its the club that gets screwed. The ordinary club players games would be once again left on hold to allow the "elite" players to finish off games.

I'm not sure it would be much different for the clubs if this was brought in tbh. If they decided to play all the group games within June/July, the only teams that would play on until August would be the 4 semi finalists, which has always been the case for a number of years now. Plus the C'ship would start a week later too.

Also, don't forget there are other competitions that leaves the clubs out in the lurch too. Clare were knocked out of the C'ship on 11th July yet (presumably) because of their involvement in the U21's they ended up being one of the last counties to finish their club matches. Waterford weren't knocked out until mid-August yet we had our C'ship wrapped up 2/3 weeks ago.

Btw, the "one strike and you're out" rule was changed for a reason. Teams were training in January and months of hard work were over in 70 minutes if they didn't win. Sure it increases the odds of upsets and all that, but the players didn't like it and certainly the TV guys didn't like it.

I dunno about everyone else, but don't want to go back to the dark days of getting knocked out of the C'ship in the first week of June.

eroo

Daysha wrote: »

I dunno about everyone else, but don't want to go back to the dark days of getting knocked out of the C'ship in the first week of June.

+1

I also think that would put hurling back 20 years as teams would less chances again to get experience.

Orizio

Benhonan wrote: »

Yeah I just mean they have it set for another two or three years that Galway have to remain in Leinster, so any championship restructuring will have to come after that.

Ah fair enough, yes promises have been made to both Antrim and Galway over the next couple of years.

Orizio

mrgaa1 wrote: »

I don't think the champions league would work mainly because, once again, its the club that gets screwed. The ordinary club players games would be once again left on hold to allow the "elite" players to finish off games.
Personally it should be as follows:

• Open draw - no provincial title
• staight forward knock-out competition - your beat your out
• played within a limited time-frame - lets say 3 months
• Once it gets to semi-final stage the inter-provincial championship starts - picked from teams knocked out out
• Raise the profile of the inter-provincial where the best players are on show. Games to be played the week(s) after the All-Ireland finals with the winning province to play the winning All-Ireland team in the GOAL match.
• All counties to agree time-frame for when their club championships are to be played and to stick to it religiously.
• 95% of gaelic players do not play for their county so treat them with respect

The GAA should keep Croke Park open for longer and use this revenue to assist clubs in providing better pitch's and floodlighting so that games can be played all year round and not squashed into a small time-frame.

Is it any different now?

Your point about fixture congestion and its effect on clubs is completely correct, but unavoidable whatever format we use.

Orizio

Pride Fighter wrote: »

What happens to Laois and Carlow Orizio.

Your idea is good. I would do what you do but not scrap the provincial titles. This can be done by grouping Kilkenny, Offaly, Wexford, Dublin and Galway, the winner of the group gets the Leinster championship. The other group of Cork, Waterford, Clare, Limerick and Tipp are always grouped and the winner gets the Munster title.

Middle tier - bit unfair on Laois but I think we need to keep things as tight as possible in the top tier.

Daysha

Just for the fun of it I simulated a draw using Orizio's format, just to see what kind of matches we'd get.

Group A
Dublin
Waterford
Kilkenny
Clare
Limerick

June - Week 1
Dublin v Waterford
Kilkenny v Clare
June - Week 2
Limerick v Dublin
Waterford v Kilkenny
June - Week 4
Clare v Limerick
Dublin v Kilkenny
July - Week 2
Waterford v Clare
Kilkenny v Limerick
July - Week 4
Clare v Dublin
Limerick v Waterford

Group B
Cork
Wexford
Tipperary
Offaly
Galway

June - Week 1
Cork v Wexford
Tipperary v Offaly
June - Week 3
Galway v Cork
Wexford v Tipperary
July - Week 1
Offaly v Galway
Cork v Tipperary
July - Week 3
Wexford v Offaly
Tipperary v Galway
July - Week 4
Offaly v Cork
Galway v Wexford

The groups should start and end on the same day just to add that bit more excitement, and then the group have alternate rounds each weekend so there's always some hurling on the TV every weekend. Every team will only have to place twice a week only once as well; no more of these 3 games in 14 days.

Because there's a set structure to it the clubs know exactly when the players are and aren't available, and just to sweeten the deal every county will have at least a 3 week break during the group matches as well. And with the lack of replays there'd be no more having to cancel other matches at the last minute to be rescheduled matches in the C'ship.

Daysha

Orizio wrote: »

Middle tier - bit unfair on Laois but I think we need to keep things as tight as possible in the top tier.

The right call too, and important to remember that the less teams in the Liam McCarthy, the more competitive Christy Ring gets. If you stuck with those 10 in the top tier you'd have good teams like Laois, Antrim, Carlow and Down all battling it out for that one promotion spot.

aDeener

if i hear the phrase "champions league style format" once more il hit the roof. so fcuking annoying hearing that. :mad: can we not be original at all?

marathont

aDeener wrote: »

if i hear the phrase "champions league style format" once more il hit the roof. so fcuking annoying hearing that. :mad: can we not be original at all?

It needs to be changed somehow, because at the moment the structure is a mess. Maybe they should just make the league the main event, and run it off in the summer.

Benhonan

It's worth remembering that any plans to increase the numbers of championship games played will lead to a greater degree of burnout among players, a problem which is already a fairly serious issue for the GAA. If this continues then you'll have to have younger players cup-tied with competitions, be it the All Ireland series or their college championship.

Agus

Benhonan wrote: »

It's worth remembering that any plans to increase the numbers of championship games played will lead to a greater degree of burnout among players, a problem which is already a fairly serious issue for the GAA. If this continues then you'll have to have younger players cup-tied with competitions, be it the All Ireland series or their college championship.

I imagine any increase in the number of championship games would be replacing league matches, so there wouldn't be a greater number of matches.

eroo

Benhonan wrote: »

It's worth remembering that any plans to increase the numbers of championship games played will lead to a greater degree of burnout among players, a problem which is already a fairly serious issue for the GAA. If this continues then you'll have to have younger players cup-tied with competitions, be it the All Ireland series or their college championship.

The issue of burnout ties in moreso with the fact players aren't aloud collectively train until January. So.. pre season of 2-3 weeks leads to greater risk of injury and burnout. Have an 8 or 12 week pre season programme where teams train collectively, and players will be better able to handle the worload. Also, doing laps for an hour and a half 3 times a week is useless. GAA clubs should hire Physical Fitness and Conditioning Coaches for pre season period, then pay them for a session every few months/weeks to update player programmes.;)

While Club is at the heart, County rules all imo.

aDeener

marathont wrote: »

It needs to be changed somehow, because at the moment the structure is a mess. Maybe they should just make the league the main event, and run it off in the summer.

i agree that it needs to be changed, not with a league though, there isnt near enough excitement with that, thats just the nature of a league (one team runs away with it and there is nothing to play for, for the rest).

i posted this a while back as a possible solution.

for the football:
what i would like to see done is an open draw championship after the provincial championships have been played. with the provincial champions to receive some sort of seeding in the draw, maybe home advantage for a couple of games??. something similiar to the FA cup where united and liverpool come in later into it. this i feel would still maintain the provincial championships (which i would hate to see go, traditionalist at heart ) with a degree of importance and it would also mean a level playing field competing for sam, save for the deserving provincial champs. at present i dont think its fair with different counties having to play more or less games in their province compared to others. also no back- door, straight knock out - get the bite back into all championship matches. league champions could also get a seeding too come to think of it, boost its importance.

all counties still get at least 2 relevant championship matches. there would be a few less matches played than the current system, it shouldnt effect revenues too much.

opinions?

Agus

aDeener wrote: »

i agree that it needs to be changed, not with a league though, there isnt near enough excitement with that, thats just the nature of a league (one team runs away with it and there is nothing to play for, for the rest).

i posted this a while back as a possible solution.

for the football:
what i would like to see done is an open draw championship after the provincial championships have been played. with the provincial champions to receive some sort of seeding in the draw, maybe home advantage for a couple of games??. something similiar to the FA cup where united and liverpool come in later into it. this i feel would still maintain the provincial championships (which i would hate to see go, traditionalist at heart ) with a degree of importance and it would also mean a level playing field competing for sam, save for the deserving provincial champs. at present i dont think its fair with different counties having to play more or less games in their province compared to others. also no back- door, straight knock out - get the bite back into all championship matches. league champions could also get a seeding too come to think of it, boost its importance.

all counties still get at least 2 relevant championship matches. there would be a few less matches played than the current system, it shouldnt effect revenues too much.

opinions?

Well a problem would be that it doesn't really address the fixtures problem, the chaos with club schedules or the way the majority of games in a season are of relatively little meaning.

Agus

marathont wrote: »

It needs to be changed somehow, because at the moment the structure is a mess. Maybe they should just make the league the main event, and run it off in the summer.

If you're thinking along those lines you could also do this nice simple structure that avoids a lot of the problems a "champions league" football format could run into . Keep the NFL but use it as a round-robin stage that decides the draw for the straight knock-out last 16. The last 16 would contain the division 1 teams, the top 6 div 2 teams and the two promoted div 3 teams. It would be seeded based on your round-robin finishing position. [Everyone would thus have a shot at Sam except the bottom few teams who would clearly be struggling anyway. If you want every county down to London and Kilkenny to have their shot, simply merge divisions 3 and 4 into one tier with 2 groups lthe way it used to be],

The teams who don't make the last 16 can play a similarly seeded second-tier competition. This would avoid Tommy Murphy syndrome, having meaning and importance because the winners get into division 2 for next year instead of the lowest-seeded team out of those who lost in the first round of the last 16.

[If desired the traditional provincial championships can be played off at the start, maybe over a month (no replays) with finals under lights on a bank holiday weekend. Either leave them as stand-alone or if extra importance is wanted just alllocate the 8 division 1 places to the 8 finalists with the 4 champions having home advantage. No reason for the provinicial councils to object as any financial loss will be amply recompensed by each recieving its percentage of revenues from the All-Ireland championship.]

This should fix the structural problems we have now. Fixture problems etc and the chaos that has become the norm at club level would be addressed while giving an interesting and competitive season. Far more of the games being meaningful and most counties having something realistic to aim for while still having their shot at Sam.

DublinDes

eroo wrote: »

The issue of burnout ties in moreso with the fact players aren't aloud collectively train until January. So.. pre season of 2-3 weeks leads to greater risk of injury and burnout. Have an 8 or 12 week pre season programme where teams train collectively, and players will be better able to handle the worload. Also, doing laps for an hour and a half 3 times a week is useless. GAA clubs should hire Physical Fitness and Conditioning Coaches for pre season period, then pay them for a session every few months/weeks to update player programmes.;)

While Club is at the heart, County rules all imo.

I agree, too many forget the issue of burnout. And if you have more county games, will it mean county players will have to start forfeiting some club games ?

Agus

DublinDes wrote: »

I agree, too many forget the issue of burnout. And if you have more county games, will it mean county players will have to start forfeiting some club games ?

Again, such formats would in fact NOT lead to too many games and would actually HELP the current problem with club fixtures. All that was explained in previous posts.