perfect time - situations

i57dwun4yb1pt8

out of the trackmix thread with the posted mp3 - some of us had issues with the drum timing .

I feel for a track like that , the drums need to be spot on time wise ,
most listeners these days expect / are conditioned to dead accurate drum tracks -


if its a looser sounding act , ( like say lou reed , or artic monkeys etc ) then yes , you can get away with looser drums , but this is a produced and tight sounding act - there fore requires tight as a gnats arse drums

any thoughts ?

madtheory

I understand what you're saying, I'm not knocking it, but I do not enjoy that methodology. I prefer not to try fixing these issues in the studio. I'd rehearse the band instead. You end up with a more joyous performance, which will stand the test of time. Takes a lot more work and time to do. The band is what they are, what you need to do is find their magic and capture that, not try to make them fit into some assumed ideal. I think it's far easier to try logic and say "the track is in tune and in time, therefore it is good" rather than to trust your gut and say "this songs speaks to me now". I prefer the challenge of creating something which is genuinely the best the band can do. It always produces the best work.

Quiggers

tuning and timing are similar in this regard, so long as everyone in the band is in tune and in time with eachother then it works, if not is falls apart.
sure we can fix it in the mix but bands need to tour these days if they want to earn a crust, and if you cant cut it live, your sunk.
polyrythimic acts such as jazz band might be playing different time signatures but they are still locked into each other every bar or 2 or 4, this give tension when they drift slightly but when they come back the listener feels relief, but its not easy listening and its definatly not gonna be the next big thing, or even a gimmick.

trackmixstudio

I usually 100% time correct metal but try to leave other stuff alone unless it really needs it.
You have said in other threads that you are programming kick/snare and overdubbing live hats/cymbals. This could be the problem. You are conditioning yourself to hearing perfect timing always.
You should get a couple of trigger pads and try to play live to a click if you want to use samples for the shells.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

he he

i found this out already - I have to delay the DAW output to the interface direct monitor system / phones by 14 milisecs , ( latenecy in and out combined of the interface ) then it all goes down in sync .

seems to be
daw out - monitor / card - me - mics - - monitor / card - daw in

causes cymbals to be out by approx 14 milisecs in the recorded mix
so i delay the daw output on the master fader in cubase by 14 mili secs which seems to sync em all up nicely .

took me ages to figure it out why all the cymbals were lagging when tracked


i intend going fully electro trigger and use superiour drums eventually ,
I just like using real cymbals - it makes it sound like a real kit /real feel .

PaulBrewer

DaDumTish wrote: »

( like say lou reed , or artic monkeys etc )

Don't be slaggin' da Monkeys, Matt is a monster drummer !

studiorat

You're a hardy buck if you can hear 14ms delay. I'm guessing the latency is more than that if you are noticing it as timing errors. You're still in the realm of phase at 14ms IMO.

I had a chance to hear a fixed and unfixed version of quite a well known song by a big four piece from Dublin a few years back. Personally I perferred the loose version, it felt more emotional or something. I discussed it with the producer and he said he did too but he wanted to sell records! The thinking behind it was people are so used to hearing drum tracks you could set your watch to that to hear something a bit looser they think it's wrong.

I wanted to say well that's your fault for fixing the timing in all those tracks then isn't it!!! I still prefer the looser feel. If a drum track has any floaty bits, usually stuff like hearing the drummer get into step for a fill, (like a fella running up to take a penalty!) I'll just loop a bar in from earlier.

But I have been known to spend a day or two fixing the timing on a kit. These days I usually just edit it together from takes. Though if the drummer can't get it into the ball park I really couldn't to spend my time trying to do it for him. Not worth the hassle.

woodsdenis

studiorat wrote: »

These days I usually just edit it together from takes.

Absolutely the best way to do it. Once you start fixing drums everything needs to be done. Of course some styles of music require perfect timing, if thats the case, program it.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

studiorat wrote: »

You're a hardy buck if you can hear 14ms delay. I'm guessing the latency is more than that if you are noticing it as timing errors. You're still in the realm of phase at 14ms IMO.
.

i dont hear it - i play along with the track and think im on the ball, but when i play it back the cymabls are about 14 ms late ( partic the hats )

which would be the same as having mics 14 feet from the kit ( 1 foot per mili second )

so i added 14 ms dealy to the daw out ,and the cymbals seem to line up better.

henessjon

id say da punters wouldnt notice

But if you say thats what it takes to be PRO then I doth my cap

madtheory

studiorat wrote: »

Personally I perferred the loose version, it felt more emotional or something. I discussed it with the producer and he said he did too but he wanted to sell records!

Seems to me that is a classic example of this:

madtheory wrote: »

I think it's far easier to try logic and say "the track is in tune and in time, therefore it is good" rather than to trust your gut and say "this songs speaks to me now".

Plus it's not logical anyway- it's emotion that sells records, not tight timing (disregarding T&A and marketting, etc.).

PaulBrewer

DaDumTish wrote: »

i dont hear it - i play along with the track and think im on the ball, but when i play it back the cymabls are about 14 ms late ( partic the hats )

which would be the same as having mics 14 feet from the kit ( 1 foot per mili second )

so i added 14 ms dealy to the daw out ,and the cymbals seem to line up better.

Is that at Sea Level ?

trackmixstudio

Sound travels at 340m/sec or about 1000ft/sec so it is 1ft/ms.
I often sample delay the room mic on a kit by 10-20 ms and add a bit of large room impulse verb to make the room larger than life.

Before ABBA started using drum machines bands could get away with murder re timing. Joe Soap knows when something isn't right ever since.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

so lets just be very clear

1/ thats at sea level or close to

2/ Im a hardy buck since i can hear the timing difference between close mics and mics 14 feet away ???

im thinking anyone would be able to hear that .


your all a bunch of thickos

http://www.labnews.co.uk/news_archive.php/3348/5/throw-out-the-drummer-jokes---rhythm-is-clever

Seziertisch

studiorat wrote: »

I had a chance to hear a fixed and unfixed version of quite a well known song by a big four piece from Dublin a few years back. Personally I perferred the loose version, it felt more emotional or something. I discussed it with the producer and he said he did too but he wanted to sell records! The thinking behind it was people are so used to hearing drum tracks you could set your watch to that to hear something a bit looser they think it's wrong.

I think a lot of times loose timing is not something that would bother the average listener. Once they have heard it a couple of times this becomes part of the performance and they don't even notice it anymore. That said, if the genre is something that needs to be really tight (like metal) or like all those post punk bands a few years back that had live rhythm sections that sounded like programmed music then tweaking is fair enough. For most other stuff most people would prefer the looser version.

Looking at how popular the Kings of Leon are, I think part of that popularity is down to the live energy of the performances on the records. I'm not a massive fan of their music but they do sound like a band in a room and there is a certain polished raggedness to their recordings that speaks to people on an emotive level.

I also think that this super edited thing is probably always going to be there but will possibly wane in popularity. It has a certain novelty at the moment, and is a great tool for making poor musicians sound like they can play (if you find yourself in a corner). No doubt the sonic season will turn once again and rawer performances will be "in" again. I am reading a book about Rick Rubin at the moment, and his thing is spending as much time as is necessary on pre-production/rehearsal and then going into a studio and nailing it quickly. I reckon if this approach was adopted a bit more often there would be far less need for fixing.