Could ARW be sent to Southern Philippines

SuperMario

Quick Question.

Could or would it even ever happen that the Irish Army Ranger Wing be sent to the Philippines to rescue Father Sinnott who is being held captive there.

Should it happen???

dlofnep

If they are given permission by Phillipine authorities, I think they should go in. Nobody is going to pay the 2 million ransom. Something has to be done before he dies. What else do the Rangers do?

SuperMario

I think if they got the go ahead, they would do a very good rescue operation and would save the priests life.
They cant let it drag on for months or the man will be dead (please god he wont)

Dyr

The Philippines has more, ahem, experienced specialist units than the ARW with a lot of history operating in that environment. I doubt the ARW would bring anything to the situation that isn't there already.

Local-womanizer

Its a bit of a waste having the ARW sitting over there.They dont know where the priest is and I doubt they will find him soon.

And having a handful of Irish lads walking around in a foriegn country is not the best plan.Leave to those involved at the moment,they have faced this situation enough tbf.

djtechnics1210

Surely the philipines equivelant of the army ranger wing are just as good at that kind of work and are more than capable of rescuing father sinnott when they find out where he is and get the go ahead to mount a rescue operation

moover

We have a joke of an army here inthis country. They couldn't save themselves,never mind a priest. They are a joke

Local-womanizer

moover wrote: »

We have a joke of an army here inthis country. They couldn't save themselves,never mind a priest. They are a joke

How did you come to that conclusion?

It would be interesting to hear what the ARW would make of that:p

djtechnics1210

moover wrote: »

We have a joke of an army here inthis country. They couldn't save themselves,never mind a priest. They are a joke

ARW are ranked very highly amongst other armies special forces

Manic Moran

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

Surely the philipines equivelant of the army ranger wing are just as good at that kind of work and are more than capable of rescuing father sinnott when they find out where he is and get the go ahead to mount a rescue operation

I'm inclined to agree. ARW simply wouldn't have the local knowledge of anything from the terrain to the typical format of a Filipino dwelling that the local guys do. And any country which considers semi-incubated birds eggs to be a delicacy is going to produce some hard-as-rocks special forces types...

NTM

I can't beleive anyone's replying to that troll's assertions. Anyways, i think that sands heads would look at all other options before jumping for the military one, and i think that Dept. Of Foreign Affairs staff would be far more useful there.

Sorry, that's meant to read "SANER heads..."bloody predictive text.

diverdriver

Well if a Filipino was kidnapped here. Would you like it if the Phillippines sent their special forces to rescue them?

Thought not.

ex_infantry man

heck why not just send chuck norris in he,ll do the job!!!!!! think the op watches too many action movies

Local-womanizer

diverdriver wrote: »

Well if a Filipino was kidnapped here. Would you like it if the Phillippines sent their special forces to rescue them?

Thought not.

Yeah,I wouldent want them foriegners taking my job:p

Anyway,the place is made up a 7,000 islands.It will be near impossible to find the man.

djtechnics1210

ex_infantry man wrote: »

think the op watches too many action movies

thats a bit harsh

SuperMario

ex_infantry man wrote: »

heck why not just send chuck norris in he,ll do the job!!!!!! think the op watches too many action movies

well the americans and the french launched rescue operations against pirates when their citizens were kidnapped, so no im not watching too many action movies.

ever hear the saying, nothing good to say - then say nothing.

Manic Moran

The difference being that the Somali Special Forces are not particularly experienced.

Or even exist, as fas as I know.

NTM

Zambia

If I get kidnapped in Oz by criminals , will the ARW come and save me?

ex_infantry man

SuperMario wrote: »

well the americans and the french launched rescue operations against pirates when their citizens were kidnapped, so no im not watching too many action movies.

ever hear the saying, nothing good to say - then say nothing.

Somehow i don,t think the arw are going to be sent in to rescue one man for one thing they don,t know where the chap it be like looking for needle in a hay stack secondly are they certain he,s still alive as he has heart problems that require medication to control, thirdly it would be a huge waste of government resources to launch an operation like that without knowing all the facts and if they did launch a rescue operation to rescue him then anytime an irish citizen gets in trouble abroad are they gonna send the arw as an obligation because they did it for one person! Think about it logically boy! ! The government are cutting back on everything just to back out the banks.

diverdriver

if they did launch a rescue operation to rescue him then anytime an irish citizen gets in trouble abroad are they gonna send the arw as an obligation because they did it for one person!

Well just think if they did, we Irish would be very safe abroad. No one would dare touch us.

troubleshooter

diverdriver wrote: »

Well just think if they did, we Irish would be very safe abroad. No one would dare touch us.

Foreign military forces involved in such ops cant go into other peoples countries without permission from the soverign govenment of the particular nation, who usually call on them for support, unless its a hostile country.

Even if that was the case, wheres the helicopters, numbers and logistical support to carry out such ops ?

I would have throught such an op would involve at least 1 company, as a minimum.

Fratton Fred

troubleshooter wrote: »

Foreign military forces involved in such ops cant go into other peoples countries without permission from the soverign govenment of the particular nation, who usually call on them for support, unless its a hostile country.

Even if that was the case, wheres the helicopters, numbers and logistical support to carry out such ops ?

I would have throught such an op would involve at least 1 company, as a minimum.

that's what i was thinking.

supposing the ARW got the go ahead to do it, how would they get there?

Can you imagine the excess baggage charges Ryanair would charge.......

twinytwo

Bambi wrote: »

The Philippines has more, ahem, experienced specialist units than the ARW with a lot of history operating in that environment. I doubt the ARW would bring anything to the situation that isn't there already.

yes but when this situation arises it is usually the country of person or persons held captive that carries out the rescue unless another country ie england/usa is asked to help because it would look very good if the philippines sf do it without the permision of the irish government and the priest was to get killed in the attempt

twinytwo

ex_infantry man wrote: »

Somehow i don,t think the arw are going to be sent in to rescue one man for one thing they don,t know where the chap it be like looking for needle in a hay stack secondly are they certain he,s still alive as he has heart problems that require medication to control, thirdly it would be a huge waste of government resources to launch an operation like that without knowing all the facts and if they did launch a rescue operation to rescue him then anytime an irish citizen gets in trouble abroad are they gonna send the arw as an obligation because they did it for one person! Think about it logically boy! ! The government are cutting back on everything just to back out the banks.

but if they are never put into action why spend all the money that is spent training and equiping them

Craigsy

twinytwo wrote: »

but if they are never put into action why spend all the money that is spent training and equiping them

It's about being prepared, if we didnt have them, what would we do in the event that they were needed. Suddenly all the people that give out about money being spent on them would be giving out that they're not around

diverdriver

twinytwo wrote: »

but if they are never put into action why spend all the money that is spent training and equiping them

They're not an expeditionary force. The logistics alone would be massive. You'd need helicopters or vehicles and possibly boats. You need airlifters to transport that lot out there. The Irish defence forces are not equipped or trained for that kind of mission. The only possible involvement might be in sending a couple of guys to coordinate with the local security forces. This is Ireland not the USA.

The ARW would be deployed internally in a hostage or hijack situation involving terrorists. The other thing to remember that this kidnap is as much a police matter as an army matter.

twinytwo

diverdriver wrote: »

They're not an expeditionary force. The logistics alone would be massive. You'd need helicopters or vehicles and possibly boats. You need airlifters to transport that lot out there. The Irish defence forces are not equipped or trained for that kind of mission. The only possible involvement might be in sending a couple of guys to coordinate with the local security forces. This is Ireland not the USA.

The ARW would be deployed internally in a hostage or hijack situation involving terrorists. The other thing to remember that this kidnap is as much a police matter as an army matter.

its a hostage situation... not a war. Once the permission of the domestic government is granted they fly over.. any heavy equipment they need they get over there. They bring their personal gear with them... thats how these things work???..How can you say they are not trained for that kind of mission when "that kind of mission" is the whole reason for their existence in the first place?

troubleshooter

twinytwo wrote: »

its a hostage situation... not a war. Once the permission of the domestic government is granted they fly over.. any heavy equipment they need they get over there. They bring their personal gear with them... thats how these things work???..How can you say they are not trained for that kind of mission when "that kind of mission" is the whole reason for their existence in the first place?

There logistics are designed to deal with incidents at home, very different then jungles the other side of the world.

Manic Moran

twinytwo wrote: »

its a hostage situation... not a war. Once the permission of the domestic government is granted they fly over.. any heavy equipment they need they get over there. They bring their personal gear with them... thats how these things work???

What, Ireland sends over the personnel including a few pilots and asks to borrow the Filipino Air Force's AW-139s?

but when this situation arises it is usually the country of person or persons held captive that carries out the rescue

I didn't see Iranian Special Forces at the London Embassy Siege, or Israeli Special Forces in Munich. Generally the 'owning nation' will only go over if the host nation is either unwilling or incapable of dealing with the problem, such as Entebbe or Somalia.

NTM

twinytwo

Manic Moran wrote: »

What, Ireland sends over the personnel including a few pilots and asks to borrow the Filipino Air Force's AW-139s?

no.. there would be no need for irish pilots... i am assuming that once a country granted access they would also offer assistance

Manic Moran wrote: »

I didn't see Iranian Special Forces at the London Embassy Siege, or Israeli Special Forces in Munich. Generally the 'owning nation' will only go over if the host nation is either unwilling or incapable of dealing with the problem, such as Entebbe or Somalia.

NTM

Irans first special forces unit wasnt founded until after the embassy siege.. plus there were also british hostages thus they were always going to do it themselves... Israeli SF wouldnt have been much either in 72

RugbyFanatic

twinytwo wrote: »

... Israeli SF wouldnt have been much either in 72

They were probably the strongest SF at that time and were frothing at the mouth that Germany wouldn't let them send over their own special forces.

troubleshooter

twinytwo wrote: »

no.. there would be no need for irish pilots... i am assuming that once a country granted access they would also offer assistance





Irans first special forces unit wasnt founded until after the embassy siege.. plus there were also british hostages thus they were always going to do it themselves... Israeli SF wouldnt have been much either in 72

Any examples of where western countries have given permission for foreign military forces to deal with incidents of terrorism on their soil ?

I cant think of any.

twinytwo

troubleshooter wrote: »

Any examples of where western countries have given permission for foreign military forces to deal with incidents of terrorism on their soil ?

I cant think of any.

We arnt talking about western countries though are we

troubleshooter

twinytwo wrote: »

We arnt talking about western countries though are we

But we are talking about a country with an extensive, experienced(in their environment) and well equipped/trained by the Americans special forces units. Why would they need to call on a tiny special forces unit, ie the Irish army ranger wing with very limited manpower, equipment and experience ?

The Special Operations Command in the Philippine Army is the single command responsible for maintaining the various special forces units operating under the Army's wing.


URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special_Operations_Command_%28Philippines%29&action=edit&section=1"]edit[/URL Re-organization during the 1990s

Re-organization and re-assignment of Operational controls in various units of the AFP also affected the structure of the Special Operations Command. Currently the Scout Rangers were transferred to Camp Tecson in San Miguel, Bulacan while the Special Forces and SOCOM Headquarters stayed in Fort Magsaysay.
URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special_Operations_Command_%28Philippines%29&action=edit&section=2"]edit[/URL Sub-Commands

The Philippine Army Special Operations Command (PASOCOM) is further divided into (3) Sub-commands or Regimental Sized Units that function as both Quick Reaction and Unconventional Warfare Units as opposed to the Philippine Navy and Airforce's Special Operations Units having a singular or centralized type of unit focusing on special operations. The Modern Structure of SOCOM was established to be divided in Ranger, Special Forces, and Psy-Ops Operational Regiments, having the later one transferred its operational control to Civil Relations Group, PA and the Community Relations Service, AFP (CRS-AFP). Currently the PASOCOM is structured to 2 Regiments and Quick Reaction Battalion namely:

• 1st Scout Ranger Regiment
• 1st Special Forces Regiment (Airborne)
• Light Reaction Battalion

Manic Moran

there would be no need for irish pilots... i am assuming that once a country granted access they would also offer assistance

Right, so if the government doesn't trust the locals enough to let them deal with the issue, they're going to rely on their pilots in a 'you-only-get-one-shot-at-this' situation whilst not having more than a few days to train together and get used to the way each side does business and their equipment and capabilities.

NTM

Craigsy

troubleshooter wrote: »

Irish army ranger wing with very limited manpower, equipment and experience]]?

And you're able to comment on that how

Yitzhak Rabin

twinytwo wrote: »

Israeli SF wouldnt have been much either in 72

The Israelis had one of the most competent special forces at that time. They trained the German GSG 9 after the incident.

Gran Hermano

What about the vatican? Time to send in the Swiss mercs?

troubleshooter

yekahs wrote: »

The Israelis had one of the most competent special forces at that time. They trained the German GSG 9 after the incident.

GSG9 were based on Israels Seyeret Matakal which was based on 22 SAS. 22 SAS CRW which was set up in 72 wrote the book by trial and error on hostage rescue.

The Isralis only set up such units specialising in hostage rescue after 74, copying SAS CRW procedures.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/special.html

1974: The acquiring of Counter Terror and hostage rescue capabilities.


Sayeret Matkal (Hebrew: סיירת מטכ"ל‎, translation: General Staff Reconnaissance Unit) is an elite special forces unit of the Israeli Defence Force (IDF). Its main roles are counter-terrorism, deep reconnaissance and intelligence gathering, but the unit is first and foremost a field intelligence-gathering unit, used to obtain strategic intelligence behind enemy lines. Sayeret Matkal is also in charge of hostage rescue missions outside Israeli borders. The unit is modeled on the British SAS[1], and organizationally reports to the Directorate of Military Intelligence. Its IDF nickname is simply "The Unit". Borrowed from the SAS, the unit's motto is "Who Dares Wins."

Yitzhak Rabin

Seyeret Matakal was set up in 1957, it had experience in hostage situations before the Munich incident, such as operation Isotope in May of that year. Just because they refined and updated theyre hostage procedures modelling the CRW doen't mean they didn't already have a hostage rescue capability.

GSG9 was setup in April of 73 and was "based on the expertise of the Israeli Sayeret Matkal."

Anyway, we've dragged this off-topic.

troubleshooter

yekahs wrote: »

Seyeret Matakal was set up in 1957, it had experience in hostage situations before the Munich incident, such as operation Isotope in May of that year. Just because they refined and updated theyre hostage procedures modelling the CRW doen't mean they didn't already have a hostage rescue capability.

GSG9 was setup in April of 73 and was "based on the expertise of the Israeli Sayeret Matkal."

Anyway, we've dragged this off-topic.

according to the Jewish enclopedia the anti terrorism wing of Seyeret Matakal was set up in 74.

974 - The Acquiring of Counter Terrorism and Hostage Rescue Team Capabilities.

.....Up until the 1970's, the Israeli SF units (including Sayeret MATKAL) had a very limited Counter Terror (CT) capability and no hostage rescue capability whatsoever. The IDF SF units were mainly hard core infantry LRRP units, which focused their training on the missions they were originally design to perform such as intelligence gathering and open field infantry combat, and didn't train on CT because of budget problems and lack of awareness......

From what Ive read the Israelis led the way/invented procedures on tubular assaults, ie planes (Operation Isotope) etc, the SAS drills and equipment, stun genades etc, used to assault buildings.

OS119

Craigsy wrote: »

And you're able to comment on that how

its manpower is officially published, as its equipment, and the government needs to get very public Dail approval before sending it - or any other Irish force - anywhere.

so yes, it is reasonable to say that - certainly compared to other western special forces/special operations forces (or in this case, the Philippines) - it has limited manpower, limited equipment and limited experience.

unless you are able to suggest that its manpower is somewhat greater than published, its equipment (and here i'm talking strategic airlift, deployable helicopters etc...) rather different and more extensive than declared, and that the government regularly breaks the law?

Poccington

OS119 wrote: »

its manpower is officially published, as its equipment, and the government needs to get very public Dail approval before sending it - or any other Irish force - anywhere.

so yes, it is reasonable to say that - certainly compared to other western special forces/special operations forces (or in this case, the Philippines) - it has limited manpower, limited equipment and limited experience.

unless you are able to suggest that its manpower is somewhat greater than published, its equipment (and here i'm talking strategic airlift, deployable helicopters etc...) rather different and more extensive than declared, and that the government regularly breaks the law?

Just one little point, Dail approval is only needed when the number of troops is any greater than 7(Or somewhere around that) I think? How do you think we got the lads into A'Stan without the Shinners dragging the bollocks out of it in the Dail? :P

On topic though, I really don't see why the Wing would go over? By the time they got there, got the logs setup going, started collecting Int, getting a feel for the ground and environment, moving on patrols, raids, searches etc. it would be quite a bit of time.

When instead you already have a quite capable SOF capability in place over there, with a full logs setup, Int network, completely familiar with the region and with an abundance of local knowledge that stems from being based there etc.

Leave them to it, they know what they're doing.

OS119

Poccington wrote: »

Just one little point, Dail approval is only needed when the number of troops is any greater than 7(Or somewhere around that) I think?...

true, but we all know that half a dozen is a gang of observers, so they aren't going to do, or achieve, anything. i agree with your post though...

as has been mentioned several times, outside forces only get involved when the 'host' country is unable or unwilling to do the deed themselves, in which case the outside team need to do the whole job themselves - everything from the logistics of moving the personnel, equipment, mobility, weapons to where they need to be, to all the int, the job itself and then the extraction.

a short Coy of decent blokes - completely disregarding all their other tasks - and no airlift doesn't cut it. if an Irish national is held outside Ireland, and the 'host' state is unable or unwilling to get them out, then they'd better start praying, because the ARW (and the defence policy of the Republic of Ireland) is going to be of fcuk all use to them.

hk

OS119 wrote: »

if an Irish national is held outside Ireland, and the 'host' state is unable or unwilling to get them out, then they'd better start praying, because the ARW (and the defence policy of the Republic of Ireland) is going to be of fcuk all use to them.

What about the wing being deployed to Iraq not so long ago in similar circumstances to what the op is suggesting

OS119

hk wrote: »

What about the wing being deployed to Iraq not so long ago in similar circumstances to what the op is suggesting

a small (almost certainly less than 7 soldiers) group went to Iraq to provide a close protection team for Irish Diplomats and Intelligence Officers, and to politely ask the US if they could watch.

in what way did that contribute to the success or otherwise of the operation, or demonstrate any capability to do so?

sure, its always interesting to see how other people do it, but lets not pretend that this was anything other than a US/Iraqi show.

troubleshooter

hk wrote: »

What about the wing being deployed to Iraq not so long ago in similar circumstances to what the op is suggesting

I got the impression that was for the security of diplomats involved in negotiations rather then a rescue mission.

Local-womanizer

OS119 wrote: »

a small (almost certainly less than 7 soldiers) group went to Iraq to provide a close protection team for Irish Diplomats and Intelligence Officers, and to politely ask the US if they could watch.

in what way did that contribute to the success or otherwise of the operation, or demonstrate any capability to do so?

sure, its always interesting to see how other people do it, but lets not pretend that this was anything other than a US/Iraqi show.

I think he is referring to that Irish jounerlist who was kidnapped.The wing sent some guys over to work along side the US SOF but yer man was freed shortly after and they just went home again.

But that was a country in the sh1t at the time and had no experianced SF of its own,totally different situation regarding the priest.

twinytwo

Knowing this government nothing will be done because it would cost too much:rolleyes:... god knows if it was biffo or one his buddies it would have been resolved already through either diplomatic or military means.. Tbh what do they say if he dies over there while they were sitting on the fence and did nothing. 2 irish people taken hostage in as many months because quite frankly we are an easy target

OS119

twinytwo wrote: »

Knowing this government nothing will be done because it would cost too much:rolleyes:... god knows if it was biffo or one his buddies it would have been resolved already through either diplomatic or military means.. Tbh what do they say if he dies over there while they were sitting on the fence and did nothing. 2 irish people taken hostage in as many months because quite frankly we are an easy target

its the downside of running a cheap 'sure, everybody loves us' foreign, defence and security policy and then discovering that actually not everyone does. its not just this government, its every government in living memory - and a electorate who vote on 'parish pump' politics and reward not what politicians do for the country, but what politicians bring back to the constituancy while not causing a fuss.