Ducati v Harley

WildWater

I hope you will pardon the intrusion into your forum by someone who only ever drove a bike once while on holiday (ok yes it was probably as close as you get to a bicycle with an engine). So I'm clueless!

However, I am doing a business case that looks at the business strategies and in particular the use of the internet by Ducati and Harley. The case itself is interesting but a little dated (ie around 2003). I came across the thread in the ranting and raving section on Harleys and thought it would be very interesting to get a more up to date perspective from bikers here on the forum. But please try to stick to a talking about their business strategies as I wont have a clue if you start to compare bikes at a technical level.

Thanks in advance.

Wossack

Might be a bit easier to get responces if you give a few sample questions

personally, Ive had next to no exposure to any internet marketing by them

Stainless_Steel

They both are unreliable and they both target a market that values a prestige brand image over engineering quality and design. Nuff said.

WildWater

Ok lets see, maybe if I grouped it around a few themes.

Production perspective:
In the 90's both companies had production issues. High cost, delays, reliability issues etc. Both restructure their supply chains.

Ducati now outsource over 90% of production and have introduced a platform strategy (multiple bikes sharing the same platform). In essence Ducati became focused on R&D, Assembly, Marketing and Sale. However, this allowed them to reduce the design of a prototype from 7 to 4 years. Plus other cost and performance/reliability benefits.

Harley underwent similar restructuring to turn around their image for poor quality, reliability and lack of innovation. This was very successful and in 2001 they were named Company of the Year by Forbes Magazine.

The main question I would have is what is the current situation with regard to their production strategies has anything changed or is it similar to the situation in 2001.

Product development:
I'm weak on my understanding of their product ranges but the case states that traditionally Ducati and Harley competed in very different market segments.
Ducati: Function and Performance.
Harley: Lifestyle and Comfort.

The case illustrates that Ducatic seemed to be trying to expand its product range and offer more touring orientated bikes and therefore go into more direct competition with Harley. Did they do this? Was it successful? How did Harley respond?

Use of the Internet
Ducati in the early part of the decade took the decision to sell some of its bikes exclusively online eg the MH900e. This strategy was very successful with the entire years production selling in 31 minutes. Do they still do this? Is it still as successful. Interesting Ducati apeared to manage this without alienating its dealer network as only some bikes were sold online and even then the delivering dealer earned a commission.

Ducati also used the internet for market research. Getting their customers to tell them what they like etc. Do they still do this and how.

Harley set up the HOG (Harley Owners Club) and strategically went after customers such as CEO's, lawyers, bankers aka 'rubs' Rich Urban Bikers.

How has each company continue to leverage the internet to promote sales (bikes and merchandise) and manage customer relationships? For instance I notice that Ducati have an official Facebook page with 116,000 fans.



Or just your general thoughts

WildWater

Stainless_Steel wrote: »

They both are unreliable and they both target a market that values a prestige brand image over engineering quality and design. Nuff said.

Stainless_Steel Thanks for that. That is an interesting insight so do you mind if I ask who you would rate as the prestige engineering quality competitors.

WildWater

Can I also ask about Buell?

Buell partnered with Harley in 1993 and has been owned by Harley since 1998. My understanding would be that Buell is Harleys attempt to compete with the likes of Ducati and others in performance, adventure and street bikes while maintaining a distinction from the core Harley brand.

How successful is Buell? Did Ducati or other companies try to set up separate brand identities to counter Harleys move?

KTRIC

WildWater wrote: »

How successful is Buell?

Not very at the moment. The door was closed 2 weeks ago.

RIP

WildWater

Yes so I see

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/10/15/harley-davidson-to-shut-down-buell-mv-augusta-brands-finally/

Thanks for that. Very interesting indeed.

qbasic

Stainless_Steel wrote: »

They both are unreliable and they both target a market that values a prestige brand image over engineering quality and design. Nuff said.

Also both are judged incorrectly by people with no first hand experience of either brand whose knowledge is based on reading opinions of others with the same level of knowledge and general ignorance.

KamiKazi

qbasic wrote: »

Also both are judged incorrectly by people with no first hand experience of either brand whose knowledge is based on reading opinions of others with the same level of knowledge and general ignorance.

Motivational posters don't lie click

KTRIC

I'm not a brand junkie. I like to pick a bike based on the look and feel of it.





*Posted from my iPhone

bladespin

Harley sell an 'image', strong marketing (not necessarily all theirs, owners often do it for them) and branding on basic products, their idea of up to date degign is liquid cooled engines, other motorcycle manufacturers had this in the seventies.
As bikes go, they're ok, nothing wrong with them, I've ridden a few, they're underpowered in standard form, prompting owners to go out and purchase custome parts (also made by HD but marketed as Screaming Eagle) to improve the bikes, giving HD a double hit as it were, eg. €15k (or more) for the standard bike then another few €k on performance or styling parts.

Ducati is similar in that it's strong on marketing, done in a diffferent way, they market as a performance manufacturer so most of Ducati's advertising etc is based around track performance, to the point where they basically bought the World Superbike series a few years back and biased the rules in favour of their engine layout.
Their bikes are good on the road, they do have a reputation for being fragile (deserved as any I know of have had warranty issues) and over priced, Japanese bikes with similar performance are substantially cheaper to buy and run.

Both brands have their followers who swear by them, I like both for what they do but wouldn't spend my own money on either, the Japanese and Germans are too far ahead in every respect. They don't directly compete as their target buyers are from differing motorcycling outlooks, they do in general be written by 'real' bikers as fashon accessories more than bikes, often rightly - the cliche of an accountant clad in hells angels gear isn't without it's basis, nor is that of the Ducati clad racer on a provisional licence.

KamiKazi

bladespin just summed it up perfectly.

And lmfao @ KTRIC

DonkeyRhubarb

Ktric, the awful irony is that Im doing the exact same thing now.

I have a Jap bike, love it, want a 1098, am writing this on my iPhone, don't like apple.

What???

FiSe

Too many cliches, myths, legends and rumour surrounding both brands.

Some of the cliches, myths and rumour aren't true anymore and some of those never were.
Both brands had issues with reliability and bad craftsmanship in the 80s-90s. Both brands were -and still are- on the verge of bankruptcy and both companies had to change their strategy and working practice to deal with those issues.
And people who ride and owe those bikes love them, people who don't hate them...

galwaytt

Stainless_Steel wrote: »

They both are unreliable and they both target a market that values a prestige brand image over engineering quality and design. Nuff said.

Complete and utter bollox, if you pardon my French. I trained in the UK as a bike mechanic, and spent (way too much...) time collectively, at the bench.....

qbasic wrote: »

Also both are judged incorrectly by people with no first hand experience of either brand whose knowledge is based on reading opinions of others with the same level of knowledge and general ignorance.

........and this is true......Once, historically, I would have agreed with Stainless' opinon, but, that was before I bought this: say what you like, and once upon ago, I hated the idea. Now, sigh, hard not to love it, really....... http://www.sip-energy.com/JM/rk2.JPG

bladespin wrote: »

Harley sell an 'image', strong marketing (not necessarily all theirs, owners often do it for them) and branding on basic products, their idea of up to date degign is liquid cooled engines, other motorcycle manufacturers had this in the seventies.
As bikes go, they're ok, nothing wrong with them, I've ridden a few, they're underpowered in standard form, prompting owners to go out and purchase custome parts (also made by HD but marketed as Screaming Eagle) to improve the bikes, giving HD a double hit as it were, eg. €15k (or more) for the standard bike then another few €k on performance or styling parts.

... I see where you're coming from, and, a lot of truth in there. They are, after all, a commercial outfit, so that, rather than some social 'favour' is the name of the game. If they can milk one, to get the other, hey, why not ? But you're wrong about the air-cooled thing. Even now, Honda's new CB1100 (iirc model correct) is going (back) to air cooled. My H-D works very well, aircooled, and tbh, water-cooling would add......just more parts, really.

bladespin wrote: »

Ducati is similar in that it's strong on marketing, done in a diffferent way,

.....can't say I've had the pleasure. Yet. But I fully intend to !!

Both brands have their followers who swear by them, I like both for what they do but wouldn't spend my own money on either, the Japanese and Germans are too far ahead in every respect. They don't directly compete as their target buyers are from differing motorcycling outlooks, they do in general be written by 'real' bikers as fashon accessories more than bikes, often rightly - the cliche of an accountant clad in hells angels gear isn't without it's basis, nor is that of the Ducati clad racer on a provisional licence.

Indeed, and as mentioned, I was a bit guilty of that too. But, you're wrong about the Germans being ahead in quality. The fact of the matter is, and BeeEmm in particular, have a lot of reliability issues. Not because they're inherently un-reliable, but more, that even small issues turn into big ones because of the lack of 'serviceability' of them by people outside the dealer network. A CanBus is not the 46a....... ........Bee Emm, like Porsche, trade on their image and particularly, their history. The traditional R's is what has give BeeEmm the base to build on, and compared to others at the time, were great. Ditto the early K's. Now however, a lot of people have caught up. Me, I've gone through, approx, 20 BeeEmms, from my first K in 1990, to the current R12GS. I kept the GS for ...........let's just say, weeks......so far the RK looks like a permanent fixture, which, for me, is a record.
But the Japanese are great. In fact, they ARE the saviours of ALL motorcycling. If they hadn't come on to the scene, the entire industry would have disappeared, and everything everyone else has done, has really been in response to Japan. This is all good, for everyone. H-D included. Actually, H-D especially............remember the 800cc+ tarriff's the US govt brought in, when they were close to Bankruptcy ?......it's the Japs that made H-D pull their socks up. Which is why the electronic's on my H-D are........Japanese.

FiSe wrote: »

Too many cliches, myths, legends and rumour surrounding both brands.

Some of the cliches, myths and rumour aren't true anymore and some of those never were.
Both brands had issues with reliability and bad craftsmanship in the 80s-90s. Both brands were -and still are- on the verge of bankruptcy and both companies had to change their strategy and working practice to deal with those issues.
And people who ride and owe those bikes love them, people who don't hate them...

All, true.

...still 'want' a Ducati though............for whatever the reason !

Thinkingaboutit

Harley Davidson had quality issues during the time the bowling equipment maker AMF owned them. There were problems with new production which resulted in severe quality issues. That's long in the past.