You havent got ns10's so

i57dwun4yb1pt8

what would you use ?

any speakers that could provide that kind of experience ?

( ie the fast reponse , middy focus , clarity )

trackmixstudio

All good monitors are equally as good as each other (in most cases)
More important is KNOWING the monitors and the room.
I have focal twins and once I got to know them it made a huge difference.
Took 4-5 sessions before I got really good translation to other systems.

madtheory

Hi Dadumtish. I think this is a complex and interesting issue, sweeping generalisations don't do it any justice I feel. Because it's a forum post, I will need to use some minor generalisations, but I've included references to texts should you require more detail. You probably know a lot of this already, but I think it needs to be clarified.

The NS-10 is different primarily because it is a sealed box, also known as an infinite baffle. This allows it to have a far faster transient response than the other two monitor speaker types- ported and transmission line. There are some other features of the NS10s drivers that contribute to the exceptional transient response. The venerable Auratones have a similarly quick transient response.

Transient response is vastly more important than frequency response. This is the case with rooms too. Generally speaking, it's easier and cheaper to build ported and transmission line designs that give you more bottom end than infinite baffle types. So transient response is sacrificed to get a nice flat line on the marketing brochure.

If you want to verify this info, look up the Sound On Sound article on the NS-10, and go on to Philip Newell's white paper. You should also research the pros and cons of the three main speaker types. The SOS article mentions the bigger brothers of the NS-10, I can't remember the model number, but that was a 3 way monitor. They're rare enough and go for fairly big money. By all accounts it has all the advantages of the NS10 and none of the disadvantages.

So to answer your question- you use another speaker that is a sealed box design and hope it has good transient response. Or you go with a manufacturer who is brave enough to be honest about transient response. Not many of those about- but PMC and Klein & Hummell spring to mind, there are probably more, I don't know. Their a serious investment. I've heard two versions of the PMC iB1s (?), and they're stunning. Peter Maher who posts here owns a pair so I'm intensely jealous.

I use Lenteks driven by an updated Quad 405, they're related to the BBC LS (?) type monitors. Like NS10s, most recordings sound horrible (because they are horrible), good stuff sounds very good. A bit lacking in bass, but not as lacking as the NS10s. Transient response is not as good as the NS10s, but it seems to be better than ported designs.

Disclaimer- I don't have a great memory for model numbers and I didn't bother looking them all up to confirm, so feel free to correct me

johnnylakes

I just got myself a pair of Yamaha HS 50s and can say they are pretty cool. Nice options to cater for your room (Mid,Room Control,Volume etc). I have a relatively small control room so they are well suited. It does take a few sessions to adjust, but, for the money I have to say they are excellent.
Worth checking out anyway...

PaulBrewer

We just put up a pair of Adam A7s today in Peter's and are both pleasantly surprised how good they are .....

At the moment we have the ports blocked up and they're keeping up with the PMCs and NS 10,000s.

More mucking about to be done ....

PaulBrewer

We just put up a pair of Adam A7s today in Peter's and are both pleasantly surprised how good they are .....

At the moment we have the ports blocked up and they're keeping up with the PMCs and NS 10,000s.

More mucking about to be done ....

i57dwun4yb1pt8

oh, i already have focal solos - which are great

but id like some ns10's or something similar to muck around with .


what does blocking the port do to a speaker that has a port ( and may need it ) ?

madtheory

It reduces the low end response and reduces the time smearing.

If you do a bit of research on ported vs. infinite baffle vs. transmission line, you'll see why. One of the PMC people did a good article in Resolution magazine several months ago.

PaulBrewer

DaDumTish wrote: »

oh, i already have focal solos - which are great

but id like some ns10's or something similar to muck around with .


what does blocking the port do to a speaker that has a port ( and may need it ) ?

I vaguely remember a ported speaker that came with foam plugs as standard so you could 'tune' your speakers accordingly.

The idea is by blocking the port you turn the box into a sealed box which (theoretically!) has a 'faster' bass, though perhaps less of it than many ported designs.

petermaher

madtheory wrote: »

I've heard two versions of the PMC iB1s (?), and they're stunning. Peter Maher who posts here owns a pair so I'm intensely jealous.

Mine are actually the newer iB2s, had a listen to a pair of iB1s in the PMC factory though and they were grand, much softer and less detailed in the mid range if I recall correctly. Everyone that hears the ib2s are blown away with the detail but they're huge money. The only things I ever heard better are the top of the range PMC BB5 XBDs, they are monster impressive but they're 30K ish stg a pair.
As paul mentioned we had the Adam A7s up today and were very happy with them. We couldn't think of anything nearly as good in the price range. Messed around with them a bit as paul said, blocked the port which was just making the bottom end vague IMO, messed with some of the filters and ended up very happy with them. I'd be happy to use them every day but.......... firing back up the NS10000s made me think that NS10s work(for me) cause I don't have to make any major detailed decisions on them, they're just there, I can use them for levelling, flip back to the PMCs for critical listening for a few seconds make a decision and move on, because I'm not expecting them to sound amazing I don't sit for hours trying to make minute adjustments on them and therefore I don't get tired of them. The ib2s are amazingly detailed but because of that you/I couldn't listen to them all day long, it's too much for my brain to take in anyway. As Paul said it's like cocaine, supermodel whores and ice cream all day long, It's too much!!! U'd end up fat with a sore nose and a sore C*ck!! Anyway i thought the Adams were very good, not sure yet but they may be a little nice, not too nice, just a little nice, time will tell.:)

petermaher

Also, stay far away from yamaha HS80s, they're crap, proper crap, as I mentioned in another post I gave a set away lately. The adams are not much more expensive (600 squid ish) and you'll achieve infinitely better results on them.:)

PaulBrewer

petermaher wrote: »

As Paul said it's like cocaine, supermodel whores and ice cream all day long, It's too much!!! U'd end up fat with a sore nose and a sore C*ck!! Anyway i thought the Adams were very good, not sure yet but they may be a little nice, not too nice, just a little nice, time will tell.:)

Just for information I'd like to state for the record that my nose isn't sore ...

BumbleB

lads I know this is a little off but would you put big nearfields in a small room ( 12 x 11) like 8 inch woofer ones . I'm told you get a lot of muffling and muddy sound and your better off with smaller speakers .Any thoughts gratefully appreciated.

madtheory

What you're "better off" with is decent speakers and as much acoustic treatment as you can manage!

12 x 11 feet I assume? Give us length width and height, then we can calculate volume and room cutoff frequency, gives a better idea of what might happen.

But ya, pretty much, it's a waste to put "big" speakers in a small room, because generally big speakers will have extended bass response. 8" isn't necessarily "big", but if they're PA speakers then yes, you will have problems!

Small rooms cause the severest problems with bass. But that all depends on the frequency response of the speakers and how that interacts with the room modes. It can be made to work, if you have the space to put in enough bass traps. It also depends on what the walls, floor and ceiling are made of, and what they're covered with, and what material(s) are behind them.

This is why you need an acoustician, or lots of books, a brain and a willingness to experiment scientifically

i57dwun4yb1pt8

its funny how the ns10 has litttle quirks that make it do what it does - like the folded speaker cone instead of stamped- so the join ridge actually helps make it respond better.

very interesting .

madtheory

They're not really quirks, they're features. The designer put them all in there in full knowledge of what he was doing. It's a pity he no longer works for Yamaha. Now they're producing lookalike NS10s, but definitely not soundalikes.

Fstudios

K&H O300D's beautiful tracking and mix monitors, hours of listening, no tiredness!!

BumbleB

madtheory wrote: »

What you're "better off" with is decent speakers and as much acoustic treatment as you can manage!

12 x 11 feet I assume? Give us length width and height, then we can calculate volume and room cutoff frequency, gives a better idea of what might happen.

But ya, pretty much, it's a waste to put "big" speakers in a small room, because generally big speakers will have extended bass response. 8" isn't necessarily "big", but if they're PA speakers then yes, you will have problems!

Small rooms cause the severest problems with bass. But that all depends on the frequency response of the speakers and how that interacts with the room modes. It can be made to work, if you have the space to put in enough bass traps. It also depends on what the walls, floor and ceiling are made of, and what they're covered with, and what material(s) are behind them.

This is why you need an acoustician, or lots of books, a brain and a willingness to experiment scientifically

Thanks Madtheory, ceiling is about 8 feet high.

madtheory

That's bigger than mine (you bastard ), so you can make it work! Forgot that you need to know RT60 to calculate room cutoff frequency. Best way to do that is to measure, I used a Phonic PAA3, it's a cool yoke. Calculating with the formulas is a pain in the butt because you have to take materials into account.

Read this first.

Read this second.

Then read this.

Listen, you've reached the limit of what this forum can do, check out some of the acoustics forums.

What speakers do you have in mind?

BumbleB

madtheory wrote: »

That's bigger than mine (you bastard ), so you can make it work! Forgot that you need to know RT60 to calculate room cutoff frequency. Best way to do that is to measure, I used a Phonic PAA3, it's a cool yoke. Calculating with the formulas is a pain in the butt because you have to take materials into account.

Read this first.

Read this second.

Then read this.

Listen, you've reached the limit of what this forum can do, check out some of the acoustics forums.

What speakers do you have in mind?

cheers again that link is unreal ! krk vxt 8 or adams a7.

madtheory

Nah. PMC or K&H. Just kidding. Haven't ever heard any KRK's. Adams are grand. Just my opinion of course.


Which link is unreal? The Beeb one I assume. What a great organisation.

O, and you're welcome.