can you sin in heaven?

kumate_champ07

yes/no/maybe/depends on the sin?

chozometroid

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

yes/no/maybe/depends on the sin?

No, sin cannot dwell with God.

robbie_998

chozometroid wrote: »

No, sin cannot dwell with God.

prove it.

kumate_champ07

chozometroid wrote: »

No, sin cannot dwell with God.

what happens if you sin in heaven?

smcgiff

chozometroid wrote: »

No, sin cannot dwell with God.

Can God sin in heaven?

kumate_champ07

robbie_998 wrote: »

prove it.

why bother with a question like that?

pikachucheeks

I don't think it's possible to sin in Heaven.
Heaven is meant to be a perfect paradise.

robbie_998

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

why bother with a question like that?

he seems very confident about what he says.... how does he know ? :pac:

kumate_champ07

I would appreciate if this doesnt turn into an argument, I'ts not my question if heaven exists or not, I just want to know in detail what it is supposed to be like, obviously we dont know exactly but I'd like to hear theories

kumate_champ07

robbie_998 wrote: »

he seems very confident about what he says.... how does he know ? :pac:

religion is not based on proof, its based on faith.

aftermn

A really difficult question.

If not, why was Lucifer caste out?

If so, is it the paradise we all are led to believe?

kumate_champ07

pikachucheeks wrote: »

I don't think it's possible to sin in Heaven.
Heaven is meant to be a perfect paradise.

what's your definition of a perfect paradise?

what if a person goes to heaven unmarried and their partner arrives years later, you cant make love in heaven because its a sin?

robbie_998

the way i see it theres no need to steal or kill in heaven (if thats the sins you may speak off and many others).

i couldnt see a purpose for having more money (for e.g) than another person, your already dead so i just dont see a need for stealing or anything.

so no i wouldnt say you could sin in heaven.

aftermn

Kumate

You can't make love in heaven, not because it's a sin, but because you don't get to bring the equipment.

smcgiff

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

what's your definition of a perfect paradise?

I remember reading a book about a guy that went to heaven. Golf was his favourite game. On day one in heaven he went to play golf, and scored 5 under par, without having any bogeys. Each day he got better and better, until one day he got a hole in one in each of the 18 holes. Then not so long afterwards he only needed to hit the ball once to get around the entire course. Golf got pretty boring after that.

Heaven may sound heavenly to those with life spans of around 80 years, but an eternity of heaven may be something else entirely.

kumate_champ07

aftermn wrote: »

Kumate

You can't make love in heaven, not because it's a sin, but because you don't get to bring the equipment.

and of course there is no need to reproduce in heaven. how do you know this about the 'equipment'?

so women become like barbie dolls and men like ken dolls? do the women keep their breasts? they dont need to breastfeed or anything

what about womens hips, will they get more narrow because they dont need to bare children in heaven?

smcgiff

robbie_998 wrote: »

so no i wouldnt say you could sin in heaven.

What about the sin of envy? Would you be envious of those at the right hand of the father? Isn't this what happened to Lucifer?

robbie_998

smcgiff wrote: »

What about the sin of envy? Would you be envious of those at the right hand of the father? Isn't this what happened to Lucifer?

well.... im not Lucifer so i wouldnt worry about it. :rolleyes:

smcgiff

robbie_998 wrote: »

well.... im not Lucifer so i wouldnt worry about it. :rolleyes:

You say that now!

kumate_champ07

what exactly is the universally accepted form of Christian heaven?

smcgiff

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

what exactly is the universally accepted form of Christian heaven?

Even among Christians I don't think there is anything universally accepted, never mind a concept of heaven.

I had up until just now thought that the most accepted understanding is that it would be a non corporal existence, but if we are made in God's image, then God has substance - therefore would those that make it to heaven?!?

kumate_champ07

if you can do golf in heaven can you do other sports?

what about martial arts? could you win with a KO? can you get injured? do you get tired?

what kind of recreational activities are available in heaven? what do you do their exactly?

do people live up their beside family and how many generations live beside each other?


are there flowers in heaven? the scent from flowers is designed to attract insects, which help the flowers reproduce. but reproduction doesnt happen in heaven. the colors and patterns on flowers are also designed to attract certain insects

chozometroid

aftermn wrote: »

Kumate

You can't make love in heaven, not because it's a sin, but because you don't get to bring the equipment.

There is no marriage in heaven.
Jesus said:At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. (Matthew 22:30)

Sin will not be allowed in heaven, because sin is anything contrary to God. Sin will be eliminated, and only those who accept God as the only authority will be allowed in His presence.

Those who make it to heaven, along with the angels, have made the choice to obey God and turn away from sin. It seems that once you are in God's presence and have made the decision to serve Him or not, the outcome is final. The current angels cannot now sin, and Satan cannot come back. Just the same, when we get there, we will no longer have the ability to sin. We have all ready made the choice before we get there. Those in heaven are sealed in their decision. It is not that we don't have free will, but that we have all ready freely decided that life without sin and communion with God is what we want.
Our choice will produce an irreversible change in our nature.

Revelation 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

kumate_champ07

Its strange how people dont think too much about what heaven might be like, even tho their religion is all about getting to heaven.

If I'm going on a trip somewhere I like to research my destination.

smcgiff

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

what kind of recreational activities are available in heaven? what do you do their exactly?

I think if you think of heaven in corporal terms it falls down. Heaven could not be a perfect earth like existence. It simply does not compute. I have to laugh at the Muslim Martyr going to heaven to get 72 Virgins - that's going to keep him happy for about 72 nights and miserable for a trillion more!

kumate_champ07

chozometroid wrote: »

Revelation 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

after 1000years in heaven with no sorrow or pain, do you not take it for granted by then? how can you appreciate it if its all you know?

kumate_champ07

smcgiff wrote: »

I think if you think of heaven in corporal terms it falls down. Heaven could not be a perfect earth like existence. It simply does not compute. I have to laugh at the Muslim Martyr going to heaven to get 72 Virgins - that's going to keep him happy for about 72 nights and miserable for a trillion more!

what is your heaven?

aftermn

thank you chozometroid for your excellant response.

Excuse my tongue in cheek remark.

smcgiff

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

what is your heaven?

There being a heaven.

kumate_champ07

smcgiff wrote: »

There being a heaven.

I dont believe in heaven, its just not possible, nobody can explain what it might be like. there are no proper descriptions, I want to hear something that makes sense.


I dont believe death is the end, its just part of a cycle. life and death go hand in hand, its not a beginning and end because there are none

aftermn

Kumate

Have you ever been deeply, madly in love? Remember how that felt and how nothing else mattered, really.

Of course it was just 2 people following nature's way, nothing special or unusual. But is that how it felt?

kumate_champ07

aftermn wrote: »

Kumate

Have you ever been deeply, madly in love? Remember how that felt and how nothing else mattered, really.

Of course it was just 2 people following nature's way, nothing special or unusual. But is that how it felt?

I'm not sure what this question has to do with what heaven is like?

aftermn

There is a spiritual you inside the physical you, the former is the only one that gets to go to heaven.

kumate_champ07

aftermn wrote: »

There is a spiritual you inside the physical you, the former is the only one that gets to go to heaven.

so heaven has no physical solid form? its jut endless happy energy floating around in a bright white light?

aftermn

1) Correct
2) The words used all relate to some physical manifestation, 'energy', 'floating', 'white light' etc. They are not compatible with a non-physical environment. Heaven, in other words, cannot be described in physical terms. Beliefs, feelings and emotions are closer to heaven than golf clubs or other 'equipment'.

kumate_champ07

aftermn wrote: »

1) Correct
2) The words used all relate to some physical manifestation, 'energy', 'floating', 'white light' etc. They are not compatible with a non-physical environment. Heaven, in other words, cannot be described in physical terms. Beliefs, feelings and emotions are closer to heaven than golf clubs or other 'equipment'.

Is this a Christian heaven you are talking about?

If so then what is a Christian hell?

Fanny Cradock

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

so heaven has no physical solid form? its jut endless happy energy floating around in a bright white light?

There are a number of misconceptions in this thread - at least in terms of what the earliest Christians believed about existence after this life. In short, early Christians like Paul didn't subscribe to an eternally ethereal disembodied existence in a place called heaven, they believed that the ultimate fate of mankind was a physical existence in a "new heaven and a new earth".

After the resurrection, which is utterly integral to ushering in the new heavens and new earth, Jesus is described as a physical being in the sense we would understand - for example, he can eat and people are able to touch him - but he is also described as being more real and he is able to do some very mysterious stuff.

So while there is a some form of existence in heaven, the ultimate hope lies not in platonic dualism or Gnosticism (the body is cast off and the soul/ spirit floats up into heaven to sit on clouds and play harps forever - a distinctly medieval notion, AFAIK ), but in a fully embodied existence in a cosmos renewed. This is what N.T. Wright calls "life after life after death" because it was (and still is) believed by the early Christians that we will all be resurrected to play an integral part in this new reality.

Slav

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

yes/no/maybe/depends on the sin?

Technically you can sin in heaven because free will (which is in human nature) makes it possible.

However the question makes no more sense then the likes of "can healthy adults wet their beds like babies?"
Yes, they technically can but why would they do it?

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

what happens if you sin in heaven?

This would be more or less like "Adam's Fall -- take 2" but why would you do it in heaven? In Eden we were like babies; in the Kingdom of God we'll be mature.

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

aftermn wrote: »

1) Correct
2) The words used all relate to some physical manifestation, 'energy', 'floating', 'white light' etc. They are not compatible with a non-physical environment. Heaven, in other words, cannot be described in physical terms. Beliefs, feelings and emotions are closer to heaven than golf clubs or other 'equipment'.

Is this a Christian heaven you are talking about?

If in that heaven we are not in bodily form then it's not a Christian one. On the other hand aftermn has a good point saying that Heaven cannot be described in physical terms. Indeed Christianity describes heaven in philosophical categories and not in the categories of natural science.

postcynical

Slav wrote: »

Technically you can sin in heaven because free will (which is in human nature) makes it possible.

However the question makes no more sense then the likes of "can healthy adults wet their beds like babies?"
Yes, they technically can but why would they do it?

Very helpful. What's the Orthodox position on heaven? Some posters here have portrayed a state of 'waiting/sleep' after death before the second coming and then a bodily ressurection for all the saints. I understand that this is an early Christian interpretation.

As Catholics, I can't find any such reference in the catechism, where a disembodied heaven seems to be taught, with a judgement for each person on their death (rather than the final group judgement outlined above). We are taught that there are already souls in heaven (angels and saints) and some souls in a state of sleep awaiting the resurrection (purgatory) which does not seem to be the same scenario I've seen PDN and Fanny describe here elsewhere.

Any ideas Kelly1?

philologos

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

Its strange how people dont think too much about what heaven might be like, even tho their religion is all about getting to heaven.

If I'm going on a trip somewhere I like to research my destination.

Christianity isn't all about getting to heaven. In fact quite a lot of Christianity is to do with our existence right now as human beings.

MrPudding

Slav wrote: »

Technically you can sin in heaven because free will (which is in human nature) makes it possible.

I am pretty sure one of the regulars, woflie I seem to recall, has said that there is no free will in heaven.

MrP

Slav

MrPudding wrote: »

I am pretty sure one of the regulars, woflie I seem to recall, has said that there is no free will in heaven.

MrP

Possibly. You would not find a direct answer to this question in the Bible and I doubt it was addressed by some catechism. So the answer would always be a result of a number of logical conclusions and therefore subjective.

Slav

postcynical wrote: »

What's the Orthodox position on heaven? Some posters here have portrayed a state of 'waiting/sleep' after death before the second coming and then a bodily ressurection for all the saints. I understand that this is an early Christian interpretation.

As Catholics, I can't find any such reference in the catechism, where a disembodied heaven seems to be taught, with a judgement for each person on their death (rather than the final group judgement outlined above). We are taught that there are already souls in heaven (angels and saints) and some souls in a state of sleep awaiting the resurrection (purgatory) which does not seem to be the same scenario I've seen PDN and Fanny describe here elsewhere.

I would say it's waiting but definitely not asleep; otherwise I guess there would be no point asking the passed away saints to pray for us.

On the waiting bit, I very much like how Ephraim the Syrian said about it (sorry, I cannot not give the the exact quote but it's something like this): the saints cannot enter Paradise, waiting to be reunited with their beloved bodies. Very Orthodox. Indeed, salvation is to live with Christ, to die with Christ and to resurrect with Christ. Without the last bit it's not complete.

The idea of Purgatory is firmly rejected by Orthodoxy, together with the idea of God's Justice that requires punishments for sins. If there are punishments in this life or the afterlife it's only us who punish ourselves and each other. Sin is probably a crime but it does not really matter; first of all it's a fatal illness and God is the doctor, not a judge or a prosecutor. Court is really inside us: we are the accused and we are the victim, we are our own prosecutor and our own advocate, we are the jury and the judge -- all in one person. As for God, he is above it all, he is too great for the court room and those useless hearings in it.

If someone warned his kids not to play with matches only to find one day the whole house on fire, how stupid would it be of him to think about a punishment? Instead he'd rush inside, sacrificing himself, in hope of getting his loved ones out of there and saving their lives.

postcynical

Slav wrote: »

God is the doctor, not a judge or a prosecutor.

Thank you, I really like this perspective. Do you think everybody will be cured?

If someone warned his kids not to play with matches only to find one day the whole house on fire, how stupid would it be of him to think about a punishment? Instead he'd rush inside, sacrificing himself, in hope of getting his loved ones out of there and saving their lives.

Simple. Great analogy.

waitinforatrain

The only sin is restriction.

Klingon Hamlet

Hugging, kissing, holding hnds, making love, all those things are heaven to me.

I have my own beliefs and I wouldn't dare attack anyone else's. But I cannot imagine the horror of losing all that tactile joy. Some would say the body is merely a mode of transport and a tool to navigate the world and interact with our kin. But I would see the body---and everything the body does---as a direct extension from our heart/mind/soul's desires, and to lose that would be like losing all your senses in one go. And that, to me, sounds more like hell.

Again, all IMHO.

SlickRic

i don't believe you lose all your senses in heaven. not even close.

after the fall, God has been in constant pursuit of his people. He is trying to bring us back to the place where we were intended to be; in a perfect relationship with Him, and in perfect relationships with each other. i believe that in heaven, the nature of relationship, and our relationship God will be revealed in all their glory. we cannot grasp how that will satisfy us for eternity, but we're not God. how could we? it's even more difficult to grasp if you're not in relationship with God.

in fact, in heaven, you'll use your 'new' body for all the intentions it was supposed to always have. i don't know what all of them will be, but God promises that everything will be restored once Jesus comes back. all relationships, all brokenness, poverty, disillusionment, depression, everything, will be ultimately eradicated in Christ. and in the meantime, we as Christians, are to bring this 'heaven' to life in this world now. we're in the process of this restoration.

that is the story of God, it always has been, and always will be, and it will be fulfilled, i believe, in the second coming.

Coriolanus

Satan was cast out of heaven for the sin of Pride. So patently one can sin in Heaven. Or at least the legion of angels can sin in heaven.

Min

Yes Satan is proof.

kumate_champ07

Nevore wrote: »

Satan was cast out of heaven for the sin of Pride. So patently one can sin in Heaven. Or at least the legion of angels can sin in heaven.

Is pride still a sin??

God bless America!

Coriolanus

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

Is pride still a sin??

God bless America!

Yep, and Il Pape added a few more deadly sins to the original 7. There's 14-15 I think now.